EPTOn May 04 2011 05:22 VEReHrT wrote:
I want the marine splitting guide ;(
I want the marine splitting guide ;(
there you go
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206208
[G]TvZ Marine/Raven - Page 37
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BKSandland
Denmark79 Posts
there you go http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206208 | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
@DreamRaider. Its not one or the other. You can get tanks and then switch. When I still played a lot, zergs were bad enough that you could just shove marines at them until they died. Then they got better at dealing with 2 rax by not over building blings and using good speedling position or just blowing up your wall. So you basically have to go marine/tank, or go get a few tanks and then go marine/medivac pickup micro/drop abuse and then you get the Ravens late game unless you get a really good advantage (like killing multiple drones or the queen, his first 6 lings, and that ovie that a lot of players forget outside their their nat). | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
1. No Irradiate. HSM just ends up raping your own army. 2. Auto-turrets do not scale with ebay upgrades except building armor. So late game trying to kill ultras is like throwing pebbles at a wall. Even infested terrans benefitted from both evo chamber ups. 3. Not to mention ultras have +100 HP compared to their BW counter parts. What is your typical late-game transition? | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
Usually, you don't have to worry about a mass ultra (and mass ultra with infestors, blings, and sling is the thing you have to worry most about) transition because zerg won't be able to bank money effectively. Most of the time, atleast on the old maps, the game will end at lair tech when one player successfully keeps their third base. But if you have to deal with ultras, you can mass build a ton of tech labs and spam marauders. This is why I favor extra rax over reactors. More generally, late game with mass raven is about the number of ravens you can get in your cloud. The power of turrets doesn't scale with upgrades, it scales with the parallel build up of energy across ravens and the amount of turrets you can maintain on the map because they last so long (unlike infested terrans). Don't forget that turrets are also free HP that doesn't take bonus damage from anything except banelings. Late game is all about taking and holding mining expansions and a large Raven cloud with a properly supported bio army can do a lot to help you achieve those ends: -Your bio is highly mobile and your ravens are not restricted by terrain. -You are able to restrict zerg's mobility with turret fields and the removal of creep. -Turrets do a huge amount of damage over time and 2-4 can take out a base, deny mining, and are quite good at killing drones. -You begin securing more and more favorable army trades due to turrets. -Ravens are 2 food but can generate an army several times that size in food so you have supply to do other things with. Usually your killing blow in the late game is you pushing near zerg's natural and then your ravens flying into the main and throwing down a huge amount of turrets to kill all their tech. | ||
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-HypeR-
United States39 Posts
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Minaegi
155 Posts
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Like
Germany94 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Wouldn't it be nice if Terran could do the same thing in SCII? Impossible. Noone will ever be at the level of FlaSh, it's not just about the race, it's about the weapon, the ultimate weapon. The level of sheer awesomeness and skill that the 'ho' possesses can't be achieved in ScII, and i say that as someone who never actively played sc:bw and only ladders on scII. I'm just rational. | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
 i would've done it if i already didnt have huge trouble in tvz >< | ||
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getpicture
141 Posts
roaches cost 75/25(total 100), and you are paying 3x times the price (opportunity cost with respect to time required to gather said resources) for the power of a single roach. of course over time ravens can accumulate energy and hope that zerg doesn't attack and then that's when ravens become supply efficient. 2 supply unit with 200 energy is like equivalent in 4-5roaches. if you are raven spamming, zerg can do the same thing with queued up mass infested terran spam. the whole idea is to substitute or pretend that the turret is a stalker and that the zerg wastes a tons of banes into the turret. when you make ravens you don't have enough tanks to kill banes/roaches. i think this strategy should be dumped becomes it relies on the zerg not making roaches and instantly killing you. | ||
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pTrItzepouk
Germany44 Posts
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kNightLite
United States408 Posts
On June 27 2011 12:58 getpicture wrote: This stuff doesn't work of course. you are paying 100/200(total 300) for a raven. upon making one, you are granted a turret which in strength is comparable to a slightly stronger roach. roaches cost 75/25(total 100), and you are paying 3x times the price (opportunity cost with respect to time required to gather said resources) for the power of a single roach. of course over time ravens can accumulate energy and hope that zerg doesn't attack and then that's when ravens become supply efficient. 2 supply unit with 200 energy is like equivalent in 4-5roaches. if you are raven spamming, zerg can do the same thing with queued up mass infested terran spam. the whole idea is to substitute or pretend that the turret is a stalker and that the zerg wastes a tons of banes into the turret. when you make ravens you don't have enough tanks to kill banes/roaches. i think this strategy should be dumped becomes it relies on the zerg not making roaches and instantly killing you. Ravens have enough energy for four turrets. The equivilent firepower from a Zerg would be 4 Roaches. Thats 300/100 and 8 supply vs 100/200 and 2 supply. I guess you could lose vs Roaches if you let Zerg get a 40+ food advantage so they can trade even with Ravens. And if they attack before your Ravens get >100 energy. But thats why the strat focuses on trading armies early, and valuing Raven retention over Marine retention. And its why the OP included variations where Ravens are used in the lategame, instead of the midgame where a mass Roach push might kill you. I don't think this strat should be dumped. It might not be as good as the Marine/Tank standard, but it is a viable way to play. | ||
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DrivenBatty
Canada34 Posts
Mass roach is a problem, but this is a really fun style to use and has helped my multitasking quite a bit as well. | ||
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Exstasy
United Kingdom393 Posts
I was experimenting with 14 CC and everyoen was sayign it's not viable, then people start doing it on the GSL and then now it's viable. Point is, don't just take everyones word for it , if it's fun to play experiment with it. because someday it'll be viable. | ||
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getpicture
141 Posts
Otherwise zerg will skip ling speed altogether and get a fast 3rd and then when you secure your natural the worker differential is like 15. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10374 Posts
back then you could HSM infestors but now it's range 6, and fungal is more dangerous now i'm thinking when it gets later in the game you will have to rely on turrets a lot (slow mass turret push), since they do well against pretty much anything Also, something i thought of that Maka used today vs Leenock. Maka was going mech, but had 5 OCs on 3 base. Now usually my third is a PF, but something came to me. The more OCs you make, obviously the more gas you save, but the more minerals you get for more CCs, which in turn can give you more bases and gas. And there's the other advantages such as being able to lift off and scanning or supply dropping. Anyone know if getting OCs instead is worth it for this style? If you really need some defense, you can just plant a few turrets at each of your bases later in the game, since turrets last like 4 minutes or something insane like that; so I guess the question is, is making OCs to get extra minerals for extra bases enough to pay for 1 Raven? (1 raven = 4 turrets) Edit: I was brave enough to try this out in masters before custom games, and at rank 40 ish Masters this build worked still. I would have won the game but forgot that i needed to be careful of fungals by splitting my units, hah. But auto turrets I think are the key here late game. They are just so ridiculously strong and can kill hatcheries quickly. Another thing i liked to do was upgrade my ship armor... it's a couple less Ravens but I think it's worth it, it helps your medivacs too which you can use to drop. I'm not sure if it's worth it thoguh, maybe just ship armor +1 so that mutalisk bounce does a lot less damage, if my ravens get caught off guard. | ||
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Nightsz
Canada398 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
I'm not really sure if you can go fast mass OC, the main issue is you need to apply enough pressure so zerg can't grow uncontrolled and be able to make large numbers of their tech units you can't do that if you drop 1100 minerals on extra orbitals. I was personally thinking about Rax->Factory->Hellion expand into elevator and then turtle into a 8 Rax, 1 Factory, Double Starport configuration. Go Medivacs, Ravens, and Upgrades. You can put down a CC while throwing down your giant amount of barracks. As for infestors, well HSM always ate them up but its not ideal because you're trading 1 raven for 1 infestor in the short term. Turrets are pretty good against infestors. Marauder kill teams are also pretty good. I think getting cloaked banshees is a decent way of removing infestors as well as every overseer is most of an infestor that isn't being made. As always, denying creep will severely limit zerg's ability to flank so you won't be as caught off guard by surprise fungals. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10374 Posts
The HSM buff is amazing. Now you can kill infestors and and roach/hydra without them being able to run away. The 5 second nerf on barracks sort of sucks though, encouraging getting ad ons (in this case reactor) instead of more barracks, but barracks over reactors is still better in most cases, 5 seconds in the long run is not much. With the seeker missile buff hopefully I can start doing this successfully against mid master level, i've only gotten it to work against high diamond to low master. Will try to get replays ^-^ | ||
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Shootemup.
United States1044 Posts
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Jacopana
El Salvador210 Posts
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