EPTYour build will be scouted and countered at the ramp by anyone decent.
[G] 7RR - you're doing it wrong - Page 2
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pwadoc
271 Posts
Your build will be scouted and countered at the ramp by anyone decent. | ||
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scojac
United States99 Posts
extractor tricks don't actually help, it's been tested time and time again. other than that, having the roach warren scouted is a huge drawback. what do you get in return for throwing down the warren earlier? absolutely nothing. this build is in no way "optimal." | ||
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Roaming
United States239 Posts
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Jonny55
United States22 Posts
10 Overlord 10 - Drone x3 13 - Spawning Pool 12 - Drone x2 14 - Extractor 13 - Drone x2 15 - Overlord 15 - Queen 17 - Zergling Egg (Deny Scout/Scout) 18 - Overlord 18 - Roach Warren right as queen hits 35/50 done 17 - Roach x7 31 - Overlord 31 - Roach x5 It works, it got me to diamond. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
You cannot deny your opponent scouting your RW unless you do something crazy like drones on hold at the ramp. It is very simple: 1. scout for pool and gas 2. run your scout back 3. return to enemy's base, scout Roach Warren SCOUTED | ||
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Nub4ever
Canada1981 Posts
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Mindspider
91 Posts
On October 19 2010 04:06 the p00n wrote: I do not actually want/need criticism, I am just throwing this BO down in order to help some people and if you have any questions I will answer them, but I do not need any 'you shud delay dis lolol'-replies that are false. Please post timing of when roaches pop, drone count, and total resources collected. Do the same thing with a standard roach build that has been vetted by decent players. If your build is superior, it will be obvious through the data you provide. edited to sound less irritated. | ||
Nyovne
Netherlands19133 Posts
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pwncakery
Canada131 Posts
9ol 14pool 16gas 15ol 15queen 17ling 19 or 20 warren (depends on when you kill off scouting worker) 20ol 20 7 roaches 34 hatch 33ol 7 roaches when spawn larva pops. I also pull drones from the extractor at 176 gas. This build allows me to expo as my roaches are leaving my base. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On October 19 2010 03:46 the p00n wrote: I have seen a lot of people trying to 7RR me and I have read a few topics about the 7RR on this forum as well, and both in ladder, custom and the topics in this forum there is a suboptimal BO. The suboptimal BO is usually something like this: + Show Spoiler + 10 overlord 12 pool Drones until 15 and 14 extractor 14 drone 15 overlord 15 Queen and a set of lings 18 drone roach warren when queen is almost done 18 overlord This will give you your roaches at roughly 5 mins, leaving you absolutely broke (I'm talking like 0 minerals 0 gas). Instead, use the following BO: + Show Spoiler + 11 overlord (use extractor trick when at 10/10, make overlord at 11) 3 drones at 11 (you will have 2 larvae ready to morph when the overlord pops and the third one will follow in like half a second) 14 pool 13 drone, get gas ASAP drones till 17, pool should finish now 17 roach warren 16 queen 18 overlord 19 set of lings 20 overlord -save up- 20 7 roaches Neither of those builds are good. Zerg can open 10 overlord 10 pool, 11 overlord 11 pool (my preference), or 12 overlord 12 pool (double gas). They all work about the same AFAIK, but I prefer 11 ov. 13 pool is too slow to get the queen and too slow to get zerglings to kill a scout. so the BO: - 11 ov - 11 pool - 14 (15 works too kinda) gas - 15 zergling - 16 queen - 18 roach warren - 18 overlord - 18 overlord - 6-8 roaches This is a roach rush BO variation without the zergling speed. When zergling speed is researched before roaches, it jut slows everything the hell down by a lot. Personally I will get zergling speed right after the roaches are made in this variation. The economy of an overpool build like this is not as bad as one might think. It is poor, but especially when drones are switched back from gas the mineral income becomes very good, which allows for tons of drone (and/or zergling) production and a hatchery. This allows the zerg player to catch up as long as they didn't waste their roaches. If they attacked an dealt good damage, or didn't attack at all (would need to have a good reason ofc), they will be in a good situation. While economy is a great an important thing, The biggest advantage about roach rush is getting the units out faster than opponent can deal with it easily. When you spend a bunch time on economy, yes you can still morph up the roaches quickly, but there is till this huge period of lag which allowed the opponent to scout and/or get more units to defend the same size force. I'm sure many people realize that zerg's style of play is quite the fast tipping scale, or "see-saw / teeter totter" when it comes to army and economy, so just know that this build is one which really emphasizes it and takes advantage of it. | ||
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
9 ol 15 gas 14 pool 16 ol 16 queen 18 lings x 2 20 roach warren 19 drone 20 ol 20 7x roaches 34 expo 33 ol 33 inject with queen OR creep tumor depending if you want to put more pressure on your opponent or not | ||
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numpkin
39 Posts
If you play around with any form of roach rush, 5RR or 7RR, against either P or T, you would know that if T goes early marauders or P goes early stalker/sentry, your roach rush will cause 0 damage and you will be behind economically. This is exactly the reason why you don't build the roach warren any earlier than you need to. In the BO OP posted, your RW goes down before the queen does, so your RW will be sitting there for roughly 40 in-game seconds before you first inject larva pops for your first batch of 7 roaches. That is a HUGE time window where the RW can be scouted and reacted accordingly. My rule of thumb when doing any form of roach rush: NEVER throw down your RW before you first set of ling pops, use the 2 lings to deny the scouting worker. If the scouting worker manage to run past your lings and scout your RW while building, you might as well cancel the RW and go for some other build, because roach rush is absolutely useless if your opponent sees it coming that early. I'm speaking from my experience as a 1600 player with 500 or so wins. Trust me against any decent T or P, making sure your RW dont' get scouted is the single most important move for 5RR or 7RR. So throwing down your RW that early is a big no no. =) And one other thing, people will immediately suspect a roach rush if they see your place down a pool before gas, so I personally wouldn't do any of the 2 builds the OP posted. Try to fake a speedling build (13 gas/13 pool or 14 gas/14 pool), and pull guys off gas when you have enough for whatever number of roaches you are getting is the best. | ||
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Ikkuh
Netherlands170 Posts
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Kogut
United States147 Posts
I have not tried this guy's timing, but if he says the larva doesn't sync up with a later RW, then maybe it doesn't sync up? If you're going to use the larva before (or just as) the 3rd pops out of your hatch, then great! If you're sitting on 3 larva (which it doesn't seem like this build is), that's FAR worse than just sitting on a RW for a few seconds, IMO. | ||
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Br3ezy
United States720 Posts
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Turing
United States211 Posts
On October 19 2010 05:01 the p00n wrote: This build may not be optimal; it is only superior to the builds I have seen so far. You cannot deny your opponent scouting your RW unless you do something crazy like drones on hold at the ramp. It is very simple: 1. scout for pool and gas 2. run your scout back 3. return to enemy's base, scout Roach Warren SCOUTED You don't throw down the warren until the two lings take out the scout. Two lings at your ramp should be able to take out most if not all scouting workers. | ||
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Dudemeister
Sweden314 Posts
10 ovie 10 pool 15 gas 15 queen 18 warren 18 2x Ovie 7 x roaches I think it was 4:47 or something like that. I use this, so i can kill scout: 10 ovie 10 pool 15 gas 14 Ling 15 queen 18 warren 18 2x Ovie 7 x roaches | ||
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Pfeff
United States270 Posts
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ltortoise
633 Posts
Is it really that important? A solid build can do some damage and pay for itself even if it's scouted and your opponent knows for sure it's coming. If you lose all ability to do damage just because they scout the Roach Warren, my only conclusion would be that the whole strategy just isn't very good. I mean sure, denying scouting always improves the build... But is it so important that you want to do your build less efficiently? A strong timing should be strong even if they know it's coming. | ||
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numpkin
39 Posts
On October 19 2010 07:46 ltortoise wrote: I don't really understand all this talk of denying scouting. Is it really that important? A solid build can do some damage and pay for itself even if it's scouted and your opponent knows for sure it's coming. If you lose all ability to do damage just because they scout the Roach Warren, my only conclusion would be that the whole strategy just isn't very good. I mean sure, denying scouting always improves the build... But is it so important that you want to do your build less efficiently? A strong timing should be strong even if they know it's coming. Yes it is that important for a roach rush, because the zerg is sacrificing early drones to try to do damage, so if no damage is done, you put yourself at a disadvantage by going roach rush. To do damage, you have to first break down the opponent's wall, if you RW gets scouted while it's building, your opponent has roughly the roach build time+walk time (roughly 2-3 in-game minutes) to set up defense. It's almost impossible to get past the wall if your opponent has 3-4 rauders behind the wall or a few sentries constantly FF the ramp. So if you give your opponent enough time to set up, RR is useless. This is the difference between zerg early game pressure and say a 4 gate push, there are 3 units you can build out of a 4 gate, where you get different compositions depending on what your opponent has, so 4 gate can still be strong even if it's scouted. But if the structure that can only produce 1 unit gets scouted, your opponent can easily get the counter for that 1 unit and be safe. | ||
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