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I have seen a lot of people trying to 7RR me and I have read a few topics about the 7RR on this forum as well, and both in ladder, custom and the topics in this forum there is a suboptimal BO. The suboptimal BO is usually something like this:
+ Show Spoiler +10 overlord
12 pool
Drones until 15 and 14 extractor
14 drone
15 overlord
15 Queen and a set of lings
18 drone
roach warren when queen is almost done
18 overlord
This will give you your roaches at roughly 5 mins, leaving you absolutely broke (I'm talking like 0 minerals 0 gas). Instead, use the following BO:
+ Show Spoiler +11 overlord (use extractor trick when at 10/10, make overlord at 11)
3 drones at 11 (you will have 2 larvae ready to morph when the overlord pops and the third one will follow in like half a second)
14 pool
13 drone, get gas ASAP
drones till 17, pool should finish now
17 roach warren
16 queen
18 overlord
19 set of lings
20 overlord
-save up-
20 7 roaches
It leaves you with much more money and gas, while not delaying (unless 4-5 seconds is somehow not negligible) your roaches.
Example rec:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/92609-1v1-zerg-blistering-sands
(note: I made 1 set of lings too many, at 20. At 20 you should not make lings, I just did not want to start all over again)
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so the roach warren sits there collecting dust while 150 minerals could have went to anything more important?
Just saying your way is easily scoutable. The old way is better because you can at least chase a scout out first before shooting yourself in the face with this build.
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On October 19 2010 03:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:
so the roach warren sits there collecting dust while 150 minerals could have went to anything more important?
Just saying your way is easily scoutable. The old way is better because you can at least chase a scout out first before shooting yourself in the face with this build.
On what would you spend those 150 minerals, when you have no larvae?
And you either need creep or speedlings to chase a scout away. I don't know how you scout a Z, but I don't leave my scout in his base when I have seen gas and pool go down. I retreat a bit and scout a min later or so, and there is no way you are going to deny me vision of the roach warren without delaying your roaches A LOT.
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Roach warren logically only needs to finish at the same time as inject larvae but its a cool build.
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On October 19 2010 03:54 Slayer91 wrote:
Roach warren logically only needs to finish at the same time as inject larvae but its a cool build.
Timing the Roach Warren with the popping of spawn larvae results in suboptimal build orders. Although it may look fancy on the replay, getting that timing right and all, it is better to plant down your RW earlier so you can squeeze out an extra 1-supply-worth unit.
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On October 19 2010 03:53 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:
so the roach warren sits there collecting dust while 150 minerals could have went to anything more important?
Just saying your way is easily scoutable. The old way is better because you can at least chase a scout out first before shooting yourself in the face with this build. On what would you spend those 150 minerals, when you have no larvae? And you either need creep or speedlings to chase a scout away. I don't know how you scout a Z, but I don't leave my scout in his base when I have seen gas and pool go down. I retreat a bit and scout a min later or so, and there is no way you are going to deny me vision of the roach warren without delaying your roaches A LOT.
Then that's your own fault for poor scouting. That has nothing to do with the build order.
And drones would be first. You have the larvae for at least 2 extra. There is a definite economic advantage to waiting on the roach warren (extra drones = extra income). A roach warren that sits there and doesn't even produce an efficient amount of roaches is useless.
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You can/should delay the warren until the queen is 70% done and then the warren will pop RIGHT as the vomit larva is coming off the hatchery. There's no reason to make it any earlier. Use the extra minerals to power out whatever else you want.
Also being broke generally is good. Of course if a build is sub-optimal and you could have more stuff at the same exact time then that's a problem, but you want to be broke as it means you are making use of your entire economy.
If it's a supply thing then just extractor trick at 17 to get the queen building. The extra drone time will make up for the cost of the extractor trick.
You can just bank the extra money and use it to expand sooner once the roaches are out.
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I want to point out that you can also do an extractor trick on the 18overlord if you want. I think for these build orders it would just the lings out slightly faster though.
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On October 19 2010 03:55 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:54 Slayer91 wrote:
Roach warren logically only needs to finish at the same time as inject larvae but its a cool build. Timing the Roach Warren with the popping of spawn larvae results in suboptimal build orders. Although it may look fancy on the replay, getting that timing right and all, it is better to plant down your RW earlier so you can squeeze out an extra 1-supply-worth unit.
It doesntn matter if your build is "more optimal" you need to have a set of lings out before the warren starts to deny scout. A scouted roach rush will do little to no damage and leave you way far behind. Also, I dont think the intial build you posted is good either (the "doing it wrong" build)
IMO it shoul dbe more like:
9 overlord
14 extractor
14 pool
15 overlord
15 Queen and a set of lings and +2 drones
(Can afford ling speed here if you want, if not, pull drones off gas)
roach warren when scout is denied
overlord as soon as queen pops (~20 supply)
Make roaches
throw down expo
attack
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On October 19 2010 03:57 Logo wrote:
If it's a supply thing then just extractor trick at 17 to get the queen building. The extra drone time will make up for the cost of the extractor trick.
I like this solution
I did the latter build and it just had a flow with how the supply/money works.
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@Chriamon won't 14/14 slow the roach timing down a non-trivial amount compared to 14/13?
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On October 19 2010 03:57 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:53 the p00n wrote:On October 19 2010 03:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:
so the roach warren sits there collecting dust while 150 minerals could have went to anything more important?
Just saying your way is easily scoutable. The old way is better because you can at least chase a scout out first before shooting yourself in the face with this build. On what would you spend those 150 minerals, when you have no larvae? And you either need creep or speedlings to chase a scout away. I don't know how you scout a Z, but I don't leave my scout in his base when I have seen gas and pool go down. I retreat a bit and scout a min later or so, and there is no way you are going to deny me vision of the roach warren without delaying your roaches A LOT. Then that's your own fault for poor scouting. That has nothing to do with the build order. And drones would be first. You have the larvae for at least 2 extra. There is a definite economic advantage to waiting on the roach warren (extra drones = extra income). A roach warren that sits there and doesn't even produce an efficient amount of roaches is useless.
No, you do not have the extra larvae and you cannot spend the 150 minerals on anything else (minus maybe a spine crawler which you don't need?). This build order is better.
On October 19 2010 03:57 Logo wrote:
You can/should delay the warren until the queen is 70% done and then the warren will pop RIGHT as the vomit larva is coming off the hatchery. There's no reason to make it any earlier. Use the extra minerals to power out whatever else you want.
Also being broke generally is good. Of course if a build is sub-optimal and you could have more stuff at the same exact time then that's a problem, but you want to be broke as it means you are making use of your entire economy.
If it's a supply thing then just extractor trick at 17 to get the queen building. The extra drone time will make up for the cost of the extractor trick.
You can just bank the extra money and use it to expand sooner once the roaches are out.
No, there are plenty of reasons to make it earlier. An extractor trick gives you a slight idle time on one of your drones and also slightly less minerals due to the cancellation penalty.
I do not actually want/need criticism, I am just throwing this BO down in order to help some people and if you have any questions I will answer them, but I do not need any 'you shud delay dis lolol'-replies that are false.
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On October 19 2010 03:55 the p00n wrote:
Timing the Roach Warren with the popping of spawn larvae results in suboptimal build orders.
I don't follow. Each drone harvests approximate 1 mineral per sec. If your Warren sits idle before you are ready to use it, then you effectively lost 1min/sec while it was idle. 15-20 minerals is small change. But I cannot understand how it is suboptimal.
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On October 19 2010 04:08 Hammurabio wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:55 the p00n wrote:
Timing the Roach Warren with the popping of spawn larvae results in suboptimal build orders. I don't follow. Each drone harvests approximate 1 mineral per sec. If your Warren sits idle before you are ready to use it, then you effectively lost 1min/sec while it was idle. 15-20 minerals is small change. But I cannot understand how it is suboptimal.
You will be able to make an extra drone earlier (when you would normally make an overlord), and this results in more minerals. You could check the replay I provided in the OP and then do the 'usual' 7RR build or whichever build you think is better, comparing minerals when the roaches pop. Maybe you have a better build - I don't know; but the ones I have seen in ladder and on this forum are inferior to the build in the OP.
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On October 19 2010 04:06 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:57 Amber[LighT] wrote:On October 19 2010 03:53 the p00n wrote:On October 19 2010 03:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:
so the roach warren sits there collecting dust while 150 minerals could have went to anything more important?
Just saying your way is easily scoutable. The old way is better because you can at least chase a scout out first before shooting yourself in the face with this build. On what would you spend those 150 minerals, when you have no larvae? And you either need creep or speedlings to chase a scout away. I don't know how you scout a Z, but I don't leave my scout in his base when I have seen gas and pool go down. I retreat a bit and scout a min later or so, and there is no way you are going to deny me vision of the roach warren without delaying your roaches A LOT. Then that's your own fault for poor scouting. That has nothing to do with the build order. And drones would be first. You have the larvae for at least 2 extra. There is a definite economic advantage to waiting on the roach warren (extra drones = extra income). A roach warren that sits there and doesn't even produce an efficient amount of roaches is useless. No, you do not have the extra larvae and you cannot spend the 150 minerals on anything else (minus maybe a spine crawler which you don't need?). This build order is better. Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:57 Logo wrote:
You can/should delay the warren until the queen is 70% done and then the warren will pop RIGHT as the vomit larva is coming off the hatchery. There's no reason to make it any earlier. Use the extra minerals to power out whatever else you want.
Also being broke generally is good. Of course if a build is sub-optimal and you could have more stuff at the same exact time then that's a problem, but you want to be broke as it means you are making use of your entire economy.
If it's a supply thing then just extractor trick at 17 to get the queen building. The extra drone time will make up for the cost of the extractor trick.
You can just bank the extra money and use it to expand sooner once the roaches are out. No, there are plenty of reasons to make it earlier. An extractor trick gives you a slight idle time on one of your drones and also slightly less minerals due to the cancellation penalty. I do not actually want/need criticism, I am just throwing this BO down in order to help some people and if you have any questions I will answer them, but I do not need any 'you shud delay dis lolol'-replies that are false.
So basically you made this topic to spread your godly knowledge to lesser people and you don't need to hear their opinions or criticism? I'm not really following why you'd make a topic if it wasn't to start discussion.
Meanwhile for the rest of us we're interested in hearing the different ways to accomplish something and the pros/cons of doing so. An extractor trick costs ~25 or so minerals when you factor in the drone's idle time. Said drone should harvest ~35 minerals by the time you throw down the warren so you should come out even at the very least while also providing a BO that's harder to scout and more flexible in case of an "OH SHIT" moment where you realize something terrible is about to go down (say you scout something that makes you think your roaches would be ineffective like gate-core-gate chronoboosted stalkers or I dunno what).
With the later warren the important thing you can also do is fake the 20 expand using your lings. Anyone that scouts warren + no expand knows immediately what is up.
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On October 19 2010 04:06 the p00n wrote:
I do not actually want/need criticism, I am just throwing this BO down in order to help some people and if you have any questions I will answer them, but I do not need any 'you shud delay dis lolol'-replies that are false.
Then you should have labeled this thread [GG] for God Guide because apparently this is the only way to do it and everyone else is automatically wrong. You keep ignoring the fact that the way most people do it (delayed roach warren) DOES allow you to deny the scout for the roach warren, which as many people have already stated is required for this to even work. If you think it's impossible to deny the scout with two lings and a queen you are quite wrong.
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The roach rush build i use is
9 ol
13 spawn
13 gas
15 ol
queen
roach warren when queen is 75% done
ol when queen is done
inject
The larva and the warren should pop at the same time.
Depending on whether or not you get speed for lings you should have enough gas for however many larva u saved up for the roaches.
As soon as ur roaches pop u should have enough for an expansion also.
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On October 19 2010 04:05 Logo wrote:
@Chriamon won't 14/14 slow the roach timing down a non-trivial amount compared to 14/13?
Well, the reason I do 14/14 is because I dont have to decide on a roach rush until the queen is 75% done. I will have scout of the opponent, and will have denied their scout, so I can go for the rush or just a standard speedling expo build.
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11 overlord (use extractor trick when at 10/10, make overlord at 11)
3 drones at 11 (you will have 2 larvae ready to morph when the overlord pops and the third one will follow in like half a second)
This build order is better
i think you are trolling hard
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Extractor trick costs 25 minerals? More like 6. 1 for cancel penalty and about 5 for lost mining time. No more than 5.
If 1 build has the same stuff at time X and 150 MORE MINERALS than another, I think it's safe and totally factual that it's 100% superior - it's just optimized better. Deal, it's a provable fact. Provide some replays or calculated BO timing or whatever if you want to disprove. If the build has less drones or something (it doesn't) or whatever, then ok, fine, it has a disadvantage.
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I use the bo you don't like, and although you do go to 0/0 resources when you build your 7 roaches, you're also flat out of larva at that point. By the time another larva pops out, you have enough to build an overlord, and then when the second queens spit pops, you have enough for 5 drones. You build the 5 drones and expo while your roaches are moving to the other dude's base. The timing works out perfectly, and unless you get utterly wrecked at the enemy ramp, you come out well ahead economically.
Your build will be scouted and countered at the ramp by anyone decent.
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9overlord is the "optimal" timing for everything except for if you're doing 10overpool or something crazy like that.
extractor tricks don't actually help, it's been tested time and time again.
other than that, having the roach warren scouted is a huge drawback. what do you get in return for throwing down the warren earlier? absolutely nothing.
this build is in no way "optimal."
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I'm pretty sure regardless of when you OL (be in 9, 10, 11) it all ends up being the same because mine a wee be faster with more drones to make up for the slight delays. I don't think the warren being scouted is a big deal so long as you drop it when the queen is 70%. Any earlier is pointless.
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When I do a 7 roach rush I do
10 Overlord
10 - Drone x3
13 - Spawning Pool
12 - Drone x2
14 - Extractor
13 - Drone x2
15 - Overlord
15 - Queen
17 - Zergling Egg (Deny Scout/Scout)
18 - Overlord
18 - Roach Warren right as queen hits 35/50 done
17 - Roach x7
31 - Overlord
31 - Roach x5
It works, it got me to diamond.
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This build may not be optimal; it is only superior to the builds I have seen so far.
You cannot deny your opponent scouting your RW unless you do something crazy like drones on hold at the ramp. It is very simple:
1. scout for pool and gas
2. run your scout back
3. return to enemy's base, scout Roach Warren
SCOUTED
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This is.... 7 roach rush?? The title made me think 7 Rax Reaper :O
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On October 19 2010 04:06 the p00n wrote:
I do not actually want/need criticism, I am just throwing this BO down in order to help some people and if you have any questions I will answer them, but I do not need any 'you shud delay dis lolol'-replies that are false.
Please post timing of when roaches pop, drone count, and total resources collected. Do the same thing with a standard roach build that has been vetted by decent players. If your build is superior, it will be obvious through the data you provide.
edited to sound less irritated.
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Netherlands19133 Posts
Please refrain from getting personal and stay on the strategy topic.
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I've been using something slightly different...
9ol
14pool
16gas
15ol
15queen
17ling
19 or 20 warren (depends on when you kill off scouting worker)
20ol
20 7 roaches
34 hatch
33ol
7 roaches when spawn larva pops. I also pull drones from the extractor at 176 gas. This build allows me to expo as my roaches are leaving my base.
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On October 19 2010 03:46 the p00n wrote:I have seen a lot of people trying to 7RR me and I have read a few topics about the 7RR on this forum as well, and both in ladder, custom and the topics in this forum there is a suboptimal BO. The suboptimal BO is usually something like this: + Show Spoiler +10 overlord
12 pool
Drones until 15 and 14 extractor
14 drone
15 overlord
15 Queen and a set of lings
18 drone
roach warren when queen is almost done
18 overlord This will give you your roaches at roughly 5 mins, leaving you absolutely broke (I'm talking like 0 minerals 0 gas). Instead, use the following BO: + Show Spoiler +11 overlord (use extractor trick when at 10/10, make overlord at 11)
3 drones at 11 (you will have 2 larvae ready to morph when the overlord pops and the third one will follow in like half a second)
14 pool
13 drone, get gas ASAP
drones till 17, pool should finish now
17 roach warren
16 queen
18 overlord
19 set of lings
20 overlord
-save up-
20 7 roaches
Neither of those builds are good.
Zerg can open 10 overlord 10 pool, 11 overlord 11 pool (my preference), or 12 overlord 12 pool (double gas). They all work about the same AFAIK, but I prefer 11 ov. 13 pool is too slow to get the queen and too slow to get zerglings to kill a scout.
so the BO:
- 11 ov
- 11 pool
- 14 (15 works too kinda) gas
- 15 zergling
- 16 queen
- 18 roach warren
- 18 overlord
- 18 overlord
- 6-8 roaches
This is a roach rush BO variation without the zergling speed. When zergling speed is researched before roaches, it jut slows everything the hell down by a lot. Personally I will get zergling speed right after the roaches are made in this variation.
The economy of an overpool build like this is not as bad as one might think. It is poor, but especially when drones are switched back from gas the mineral income becomes very good, which allows for tons of drone (and/or zergling) production and a hatchery. This allows the zerg player to catch up as long as they didn't waste their roaches. If they attacked an dealt good damage, or didn't attack at all (would need to have a good reason ofc), they will be in a good situation.
While economy is a great an important thing, The biggest advantage about roach rush is getting the units out faster than opponent can deal with it easily. When you spend a bunch time on economy, yes you can still morph up the roaches quickly, but there is till this huge period of lag which allowed the opponent to scout and/or get more units to defend the same size force.
I'm sure many people realize that zerg's style of play is quite the fast tipping scale, or "see-saw / teeter totter" when it comes to army and economy, so just know that this build is one which really emphasizes it and takes advantage of it.
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My 7rr build is:
9 ol
15 gas
14 pool
16 ol
16 queen
18 lings x 2
20 roach warren
19 drone
20 ol
20 7x roaches
34 expo
33 ol
33 inject with queen OR creep tumor depending if you want to put more pressure on your opponent or not
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I think the OP is missing the most important factor when he claims "building an early roach warren and let it sit around for a while is ok."
If you play around with any form of roach rush, 5RR or 7RR, against either P or T, you would know that if T goes early marauders or P goes early stalker/sentry, your roach rush will cause 0 damage and you will be behind economically. This is exactly the reason why you don't build the roach warren any earlier than you need to. In the BO OP posted, your RW goes down before the queen does, so your RW will be sitting there for roughly 40 in-game seconds before you first inject larva pops for your first batch of 7 roaches. That is a HUGE time window where the RW can be scouted and reacted accordingly.
My rule of thumb when doing any form of roach rush: NEVER throw down your RW before you first set of ling pops, use the 2 lings to deny the scouting worker. If the scouting worker manage to run past your lings and scout your RW while building, you might as well cancel the RW and go for some other build, because roach rush is absolutely useless if your opponent sees it coming that early.
I'm speaking from my experience as a 1600 player with 500 or so wins. Trust me against any decent T or P, making sure your RW dont' get scouted is the single most important move for 5RR or 7RR. So throwing down your RW that early is a big no no. =)
And one other thing, people will immediately suspect a roach rush if they see your place down a pool before gas, so I personally wouldn't do any of the 2 builds the OP posted. Try to fake a speedling build (13 gas/13 pool or 14 gas/14 pool), and pull guys off gas when you have enough for whatever number of roaches you are getting is the best.
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i do a 5roach rush, replay here: http://www.mediafire.com/?l78igs9bojvz8lc but mine is really hard to scout, I pull guys of gas after I have 100 gas, and then put them back in when I have lings chasing the probe.
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It comes down to a simply phrase, popularized by Day9 recently: Larva are a resource.
I have not tried this guy's timing, but if he says the larva doesn't sync up with a later RW, then maybe it doesn't sync up? If you're going to use the larva before (or just as) the 3rd pops out of your hatch, then great! If you're sitting on 3 larva (which it doesn't seem like this build is), that's FAR worse than just sitting on a RW for a few seconds, IMO.
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I just get like 4 lings and 2 roaches and fast expand...easy pressure to put on the oppnent and being able to take a pretty much safe expand
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On October 19 2010 05:01 the p00n wrote:
This build may not be optimal; it is only superior to the builds I have seen so far.
You cannot deny your opponent scouting your RW unless you do something crazy like drones on hold at the ramp. It is very simple:
1. scout for pool and gas
2. run your scout back
3. return to enemy's base, scout Roach Warren
SCOUTED
You don't throw down the warren until the two lings take out the scout. Two lings at your ramp should be able to take out most if not all scouting workers.
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Running EvolutionChamber (The zerg build order optimizer) The build is as follows:
10 ovie
10 pool
15 gas
15 queen
18 warren
18 2x Ovie
7 x roaches
I think it was 4:47 or something like that.
I use this, so i can kill scout:
10 ovie
10 pool
15 gas
14 Ling
15 queen
18 warren
18 2x Ovie
7 x roaches
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(Pst...Double extractor trick is better)
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I don't really understand all this talk of denying scouting.
Is it really that important? A solid build can do some damage and pay for itself even if it's scouted and your opponent knows for sure it's coming. If you lose all ability to do damage just because they scout the Roach Warren, my only conclusion would be that the whole strategy just isn't very good.
I mean sure, denying scouting always improves the build... But is it so important that you want to do your build less efficiently?
A strong timing should be strong even if they know it's coming.
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On October 19 2010 07:46 ltortoise wrote:
I don't really understand all this talk of denying scouting.
Is it really that important? A solid build can do some damage and pay for itself even if it's scouted and your opponent knows for sure it's coming. If you lose all ability to do damage just because they scout the Roach Warren, my only conclusion would be that the whole strategy just isn't very good.
I mean sure, denying scouting always improves the build... But is it so important that you want to do your build less efficiently?
A strong timing should be strong even if they know it's coming.
Yes it is that important for a roach rush, because the zerg is sacrificing early drones to try to do damage, so if no damage is done, you put yourself at a disadvantage by going roach rush.
To do damage, you have to first break down the opponent's wall, if you RW gets scouted while it's building, your opponent has roughly the roach build time+walk time (roughly 2-3 in-game minutes) to set up defense. It's almost impossible to get past the wall if your opponent has 3-4 rauders behind the wall or a few sentries constantly FF the ramp. So if you give your opponent enough time to set up, RR is useless.
This is the difference between zerg early game pressure and say a 4 gate push, there are 3 units you can build out of a 4 gate, where you get different compositions depending on what your opponent has, so 4 gate can still be strong even if it's scouted. But if the structure that can only produce 1 unit gets scouted, your opponent can easily get the counter for that 1 unit and be safe.
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On October 19 2010 07:46 ltortoise wrote:
I don't really understand all this talk of denying scouting.
Is it really that important? A solid build can do some damage and pay for itself even if it's scouted and your opponent knows for sure it's coming. If you lose all ability to do damage just because they scout the Roach Warren, my only conclusion would be that the whole strategy just isn't very good.
I mean sure, denying scouting always improves the build... But is it so important that you want to do your build less efficiently?
A strong timing should be strong even if they know it's coming.
Aye, indeed this is what differentiates this kind of early aggression build from a cheese all-in. If your build is scouted, it still needs to be able to put on some pressure or easily transition out. Denying scouting is great, but a T can drop a scan at ANY point given the random matchups on the ladder.
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On October 19 2010 07:23 Turing wrote:
You don't throw down the warren until the two lings take out the scout. Two lings at your ramp should be able to take out most if not all scouting workers.
At which point the player will go "oh, he didnt have a hatch going down, and didnt want me to scout, he cant have a lair going up yet, so... roaches." Thus denying the scout didnt deny the scout and cost you larva and minerals that could have gone to drones. There may be other good reasons to get the lings, but denying the scout isnt one of them since you cant actually do it that early in the game against a player that knows anything about timings.
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On October 19 2010 08:08 Kogut wrote:
Aye, indeed this is what differentiates this kind of early aggression build from a cheese all-in. If your build is scouted, it still needs to be able to put on some pressure or easily transition out. Denying scouting is great, but a T can drop a scan at ANY point given the random matchups on the ladder.
Unless terran spend his first 50 energy on a scan, the second scan comes when your roaches are almost completed if not already marching toward his base, so it's too late for them to set up proper defense.
On October 19 2010 08:09 Hyperion2010 wrote:
At which point the player will go "oh, he didnt have a hatch going down, and didnt want me to scout, he cant have a lair going up yet, so... roaches." Thus denying the scout didnt deny the scout and cost you larva and minerals that could have gone to drones. There may be other good reasons to get the lings, but denying the scout isnt one of them since you cant actually do it that early in the game against a player that knows anything about timings.
Not true, your lings should chased the scout away at around 18-19 food, and ling-speed --> expand happens at 21 food, so the opponent don't know you are not expanding. also 5/7RR follows the same BO as speedling opening and baneling all in, so no your opponent doesn't know if you are going roaches. And all zerg builds you should always get at least 1 set of lings as soon as your pool is done, and the purpose is to deny enemy scout and scout opponents ramp afterward. So yeah, denying scout is one of the reasons for that set of lings.
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@OP, so your saying your build is more optimal than others because you end up with more res and not completely broke afterwards. That's the feeling I got reading through here.
You say that when you hit 150mins you throw down your Roach Warren, due to there being nothing else to build due to no larva so you throw down a Roach Warren. Somehow that leads to the most optimal build.
You completely disregard that Z loses a drone when building buildings. If that building is not gonna be doing anything worth-while for however long, it's not worth building yet. Hence you see players holding off on the Warren until much later.
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why has nobody linked the best 7RR?
+ Show Spoiler +The way to read this is:
@ -- This is at... so at 0 minutes and 0 seconds, you have
M: Minerals
G: Gas
L: Larvae
Supply: 6.0 of 10
Drone -- build a drone
@1fetc -- ignore. Just an address.
@0:0 M:50 G:0 L:3 S:6.0/10 Drone@1fc9896
@0:12 M:51 G:0 L:2 S: 7.0/10 Drone@85bc91
@0:15 Larva+1
@0:17 Drone+1
@0:23 M:52 G:0 L:2 S:8.0/10 Drone@1ee85f
@0:29 Drone+1
@0:30 Larva+1
@0:33 M:54 G:0 L:2 S: 9.0/10 Drone@129e853
@0:40 Drone+1
@0:45 Larva+1
@0:50 Drone+1
@0:50 M:106 G:0 L:2 S:10.0/10 Overlord@53b641
@1:0 Larva+1
@1:15 Overlord+1
@1:15 Larva+1
@1:18 M:202 G:0 L:3 S:10.0/18 SpawningPool@1e2a632
@1:26 M:52 G:0 L:3 S: 9.0/18 Drone@10d3219
@1:34 M:52 G:0 L:2 S:10.0/18 Drone@1898dfc
@1:41 Larva+1
@1:42 M:52 G:0 L:2 S:11.0/18 Drone@1c8d07e
@1:43 Drone+1
@1:49 M:51 G:0 L:1 S:12.0/18 Drone@f03da2
@1:51 Drone+1
@1:56 Larva+1
@1:56 M:55 G:0 L:1 S:13.0/18 Drone@5e6792
@1:59 Drone+1
@2:6 Drone+1
@2:11 Larva+1
@2:11 M:135 G:0 L:1 S:14.0/18 Drone@1e1e208
@2:11 M:85 G:0 L:0 S:15.0/18 Extractor@be887e
@2:13 Drone+1
@2:23 Spawning Pool+1
@2:26 Larva+1
@2:26 M:196 G:0 L:1 S:14.0/18 Drone@19c8632
@2:27 M:155 G:0 L:0 S:15.0/18 Queen@12e6b9b
@2:28 Drone+1
@2:41 Extractor+1
@2:41 Larva+1
@2:41 M:141 G:1 L:1 S:17.0/18 Drone@9a8db8
@2:43 Drone+1
@2:48 M:150 G:15 L:0 S:18.0/18 RoachWarren@ce3285
@2:56 Larva+1
@2:56 M:62 G:30 L:1 S:17.0/18 Drone@156dd0d
@2:58 Drone+1
@3:11 Larva+1
@3:11 M:139 G:58 L:1 S:18.0/18 Overlord@1ca9ff1
@3:13 Drone+1
@3:17 Queen+1
@3:26 Larva+1
@3:26 M:175 G:87 L:1 S:18.0/18 Overlord@1ca9057
@3:36 Overlord+1
@3:36 M:167 G:106 L:0 S:18.0/26 EcActionWait@1ca46d3
@3:41 Larva+1
@3:41 M:213 G:115 L:1 S:18.0/26 EcActionWait@effef4
@3:43 Roach Warren+1
@3:43 M:231 G:119 L:1 S:18.0/26 EcActionWait@4b843a
@3:43 M:231 G:119 L:1 S:18.0/26 Roach@1d60d6d
@3:51 Overlord+1
@3:56 Larva+1
@3:56 M:280 G:119 L:1 S:20.0/34 Roach@b752d
@4:2 Larva+4
@4:2 M:265 G:105 L:4 S:22.0/34 Roach@39e69c
@4:2 M:195 G:80 L:3 S:24.0/34 Roach@1532379
@4:2 M:125 G:55 L:2 S:26.0/34 Roach@13e0bc6
@4:5 M:83 G:36 L:1 S:28.0/34 Roach@770c65
@4:10 Roach+1
@4:11 Larva+1
@4:13 M:86 G:26 L:1 S:30.0/34 Roach@1cec45b
@4:23 Roach+1
@4:26 Larva+1
@4:29 Roach+1
@4:29 Roach+1
@4:29 Roach+1
@4:32 Roach+1
@4:40 Roach+1
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=160231
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Ok, the BO that is the "sub optimal" is the one I posted in a different OP.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=161586
My 7rr bo does leave you broke... 0minerals, 0 gas, 0 larvae, 2 supply left, and 7 roaches out sooner than your build. What deals more damage, money in the bank or faster roaches? And you make it sound like having money left over is good. Its all about the timing attack. There are many ways to go 7roach, but i like the ones that deny scouting, and get them out as fast as possible, cutting corners. The 7 roaches can only come out as fast as the larvae pops, and that only comes out as fast as you can get pool. Other than that, you need enough money to make them at that timing, and other than that, you SHOULD also want to deny the scout. My BO takes all those and wraps em up nice and tight.
Being broke at the moment you make the 7 roaches isn't a bad thing. That just means you cut enough corners to get the roaches out as fast as possible. I like having the roaches out as soon as possible while also getting lings to kill scout. No need for a super economic opening into 7roaches, as making 7 roaches a little later is just as bad economically, because it reduces the strength of that rush by delaying it, thus, not being able to deal as much damage.
Also by showing your tech, your giving away time that you spent cutting corners, just to show your tech, giving the opponent that much more time to prepare and respond.
The strategy of my BO is that it is done blind. It isn't a responsive build order like 13/13 or 14/14, scouting, denying scouting, 5/7 roach rush variants. It has to be done as fast as possible if its blind. If you want a more economic and responsive build, the 5RR or other variants are good. If you want to rely purely on having a stronger fighting force and micro to gain the lead, try a fast 7roach.
When done fast enough, they HAVE to pull their SCVs or probes, bringing them to your roaches, thus, reducing the whole "Stalkers kite you forever". I actually don't suggest doing a blind version vs terran as they can get a marauder out and bunker, and/or make a 'banebust' proof wallin, etc. But against protoss, I estimate they will have maybe 2 stalkers, a zealot, and a sentry. Take any longer, and they will have 4 stalkers, sentry with more energy, and a zealot. Attack soon enough and they have to pull probes or run probes, or they lose pylons and gates.
On October 19 2010 09:42 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
why has nobody linked the best 7RR?
That build doesn't get lings to deny the scout. It is rather fast though, but countered because the fast pool is spotted by scout, and that already sends up warning signs to prepare to defend. When they see you not saving larvae for lings, they know its roach 100%. You also have to scout with a drone right after the roaches start to find their base if its not a 1v1, while the lings can find it if you made them. 7 Roaches heading to the wrong base doesn't make the extra timing worth much. But you can always scout with the OL and a drone right as you start the roaches I supose. It feels tons more risky.
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Oh this building seems great, I could pull out 1 banshee(+research cloak) 7 rines 1 bunker and a half second bunker in the same time, but if i didnt knew it was coming without the bunker would be an auto gg ...
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Take it for what it's worth. I am only a Gold player right now, but I have a 15-game winning streak using this 7 RR strategy right now with my last 7 wins coming against Top 30 Platinum players. I am using the following build: (P00RKID's build)
+ Show Spoiler +10 OL
12 Pool
14 Extractor
15 OL
15 Queen / Lings
18 Drone
@70% queen, Roach Warren
18 OL
7 Roaches when Larva Pop
Inject
Metabolic Boost
5 Drones when Larva Pop
Inject
Pump lings + rally to base
If the roaches don't outright win me the game (~50/50), I follow up with Slings rallied to the base. The Roaches have been breaking the wall every time and enemy has to pull workers and micro to kill off the roaches. This puts me ahead Econ-wise and if the roaches don't win, I have 6, 10, 18 and soon enough 24+ slings in transit to mop up when the wall is gone.
I also drop an expo shortly after the 5 Drones pop out, putting me at 2 bases to their 1 and severely crippling their econ if all else fails. In 15 games, the initial Roach/Sling attack has only not won outright 2 times, and at that point I was already teching to Lair, getting a Spire and building 6-8 Mutas while they are focusing on anti-roach/sling defense.
Great build for me right now.
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I just compared the OP replay and my fastest 7RR and here are the following differences:
The 6RR has 6 lings at ~4:00, the 7RR has 2 lings at ~3:30.
The 6RR finishes with 16 drones, the 7RR finishes with 16 drones.*
The 6RR finishes with 284/138, the 7RR finishes with 304/114.*
The 6RR finishes with 6 roaches at ~5:00, the 7RR finishes with 7 roaches at ~5:10.
* The drone count and mineral count are shifted because the OP replay made 6 lings instead of 4.
My BO tweaked from P00RKID:
+ Show Spoiler +
11 - OL
14 - Pool
14 - Extractor
@ Extractor 100% - 3 drones
15 - OL
@ Pool100% - Queen + 2 Lings
@ Queen ~75% - Roach Warren
18 - OL
19 - Drone
@ Queen 100% - Inject
@ Roach Warren 100% - 7 roaches
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Here are the last 5 or so 7RR's I just played. I'm only Gold, so my micro is kind of poor. Actually, watching my own replays I saw how bad it is at some parts. But I think these Rep's show the effectiveness of it. I was playing against a Platinum in all of these.
I could have went with more lings to win outright, but I was trying to mix in a FE and tech while pushing.
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@ KandLeMaN I watched the ZvP on blistering sands. I don't know if your used to pulling drones off gas at Gold level, but I usualy put gas drones on minerals after I have the initial 175 for the 7 roaches. You can use those minerals to get another hatchery up sooner. But if you want ling speed, leave them on, but you should start ling speed right away, you will have 100min and gas soon after the roaches are on the way if you keep them on the gas. By the time any walls are taken care of, you can have ling speed almost done and a good group of lings.
I like expanding though, so I pull drones off gas untill I can afford the 5drones after roaches + expo hatch.
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On October 19 2010 12:37 P00RKID wrote:
@ KandLeMaN I watched the ZvP on blistering sands. I don't know if your used to pulling drones off gas at Gold level, but I usualy put gas drones on minerals after I have the initial 175 for the 7 roaches. You can use those minerals to get another hatchery up sooner. But if you want ling speed, leave them on, but you should start ling speed right away, you will have 100min and gas soon after the roaches are on the way if you keep them on the gas. By the time any walls are taken care of, you can have ling speed almost done and a good group of lings.
I like expanding though, so I pull drones off gas untill I can afford the 5drones after roaches + expo hatch.
What do you do from 32/34 onward?
I've been building a drone and lings or drone, ovie, expand.
After the 7 Roaches, I'm not really sure if I should expand first before ovie, get metabolic or make 4 lings to accompany the roaches. I'm trying out different variations but I haven't found one just yet.
I guess I should pull off after I get the additional 100 for speed though.
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On October 19 2010 06:54 Kogut wrote:
It comes down to a simply phrase, popularized by Day9 recently: Larva are a resource.
Here's another one: If your BO relies that much on your opponent not scouting it, then it's a bad build.
It's not like not being scouted when going RR is auto-win. Some people just blindly go MM(eventually +M) or Stalkers(aiming for Blink+Colossi ball).
The Roaches allow you to be less passive, marauders or not. If you can put your 1st overlord near their ramp, you'll be able to snipe his buildings unless he has a bunker.
It's nice and all to kill that SCV. If anything it's one less worker for him. But I wouldn't sit in my base with these two lings: rather head them to X'N towers and gain vision of what's going on IMHO.
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On October 19 2010 08:08 Kogut wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 07:46 ltortoise wrote:
I don't really understand all this talk of denying scouting.
Is it really that important? A solid build can do some damage and pay for itself even if it's scouted and your opponent knows for sure it's coming. If you lose all ability to do damage just because they scout the Roach Warren, my only conclusion would be that the whole strategy just isn't very good.
I mean sure, denying scouting always improves the build... But is it so important that you want to do your build less efficiently?
A strong timing should be strong even if they know it's coming. Aye, indeed this is what differentiates this kind of early aggression build from a cheese all-in. If your build is scouted, it still needs to be able to put on some pressure or easily transition out. Denying scouting is great, but a T can drop a scan at ANY point given the random matchups on the ladder.
It's basically a cheese/all in build, you can call it aggressive but even so if it does more damage when not scouted, you should deny scouting. If T scans really early or he hides a scout and you miss it well that sucks but you don't want to hand out the info that you're going to go 1 base and get 7 roaches fast to him on a plate. if it makes a very marginal difference in the build. (extractor trick instead of fast roach warren would probably net more minerals and deny scouting).
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Isn't this whole discussion dumb since 7RR is flatout inferior to 5RR w/ speedlings?
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Sorry just as a T, I wanted to check how often 5 or 7 RR actually works... Bunker + repair = GG roach rush? Then hellion + hero thor with my marines and the game is over? I can't even think of a good reason not to build a bunker in time for dealing with a roach rush because I can just salvage it later. If I bunker after Fact and get an addon on my Rax I don't get supply blocked either due to the 100 minerals...
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Canada9720 Posts
On October 19 2010 04:06 the p00n wrote:
I do not actually want/need criticism, I am just throwing this BO down in order to help some people and if you have any questions I will answer them, but I do not need any 'you shud delay dis lolol'-replies that are false.
Tough nuts, that's what the strategy forum is all about. This isn't a trophy display case for you to admire your own reflection. You're lucky this didn't get closed, just because of that attitude.
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Couple tips for the original poster, although I'm sure he'll ignore them and maybe even flame me.
#1: 9OL is superior to 11OL, or 10OL, or 12OL. A quick test shows that doing your same build, but using 9OL instead of a trick, puts you ahead 20-25 minerals by the 3 minute mark.
#2: You can extractor trick to get to 19/18, delay the warren a little, and either have the ability to get a set of lings out to deny, or have an extra drone working. The people who have said there's no reason to place the warren until just before it's needed are correct. That drone could be mining.
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10 ovie
10 pool
15 extractor
15 queen
18 warren
18 ovie
18 ovie
injecting when queen pops, and making roaches as soon as minerals allow
will get 7 roaches out by 4;40 optimal time, 4:50 real time give or take a few seconds
also, less time wasted with the roach warren idling. this gets you the fastest roaches afaik, and you might be wondering, 10 pool so early? but its not, it allows you to get the queen earlier so and times it so that when your round of injection lava pops you can make most of the roaches
#1: 9OL is superior to 11OL, or 10OL, or 12OL. A quick test shows that doing your same build, but using 9OL instead of a trick, puts you ahead 20-25 minerals by the 3 minute mark.
For a less economical build like the roach rush the earlier queen is neccessary and more important than 20 minerals by 3 minutes
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On October 20 2010 03:59 valckrie wrote:Show nested quote +#1: 9OL is superior to 11OL, or 10OL, or 12OL. A quick test shows that doing your same build, but using 9OL instead of a trick, puts you ahead 20-25 minerals by the 3 minute mark. For a less economical build like the roach rush the earlier queen is neccessary and more important than 20 minerals by 3 minutes
If you're pooling on 12 or later, and building an overlord before the pool, 9OL is the fastest way to get the pool, and therefore the queen.
I've also run tests showing that overpool wastes enough larvae that it's not worth doing simply to get the queen faster. 11OL with an extractor trick and 11pool is going to be better.
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On October 19 2010 04:06 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:57 Amber[LighT] wrote:On October 19 2010 03:53 the p00n wrote:On October 19 2010 03:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:
so the roach warren sits there collecting dust while 150 minerals could have went to anything more important?
Just saying your way is easily scoutable. The old way is better because you can at least chase a scout out first before shooting yourself in the face with this build. On what would you spend those 150 minerals, when you have no larvae? And you either need creep or speedlings to chase a scout away. I don't know how you scout a Z, but I don't leave my scout in his base when I have seen gas and pool go down. I retreat a bit and scout a min later or so, and there is no way you are going to deny me vision of the roach warren without delaying your roaches A LOT. Then that's your own fault for poor scouting. That has nothing to do with the build order. And drones would be first. You have the larvae for at least 2 extra. There is a definite economic advantage to waiting on the roach warren (extra drones = extra income). A roach warren that sits there and doesn't even produce an efficient amount of roaches is useless. No, you do not have the extra larvae and you cannot spend the 150 minerals on anything else (minus maybe a spine crawler which you don't need?). This build order is better. Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:57 Logo wrote:
You can/should delay the warren until the queen is 70% done and then the warren will pop RIGHT as the vomit larva is coming off the hatchery. There's no reason to make it any earlier. Use the extra minerals to power out whatever else you want.
Also being broke generally is good. Of course if a build is sub-optimal and you could have more stuff at the same exact time then that's a problem, but you want to be broke as it means you are making use of your entire economy.
If it's a supply thing then just extractor trick at 17 to get the queen building. The extra drone time will make up for the cost of the extractor trick.
You can just bank the extra money and use it to expand sooner once the roaches are out. I do not actually want/need criticism, I am just throwing this BO down in order to help some people and if you have any questions I will answer them, but I do not need any 'you shud delay dis lolol'-replies that are false.
even flash talks about the fact that there are STILL things he needs to work on in his build timing's and he's God Tier PLUS the game's been out for 10 years
there are always ways to improve, i'm 100% positive your way isn't perfect and even if it was, we got 2 more expansions to go
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On October 20 2010 04:41 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 04:06 the p00n wrote:On October 19 2010 03:57 Amber[LighT] wrote:On October 19 2010 03:53 the p00n wrote:On October 19 2010 03:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:
so the roach warren sits there collecting dust while 150 minerals could have went to anything more important?
Just saying your way is easily scoutable. The old way is better because you can at least chase a scout out first before shooting yourself in the face with this build. On what would you spend those 150 minerals, when you have no larvae? And you either need creep or speedlings to chase a scout away. I don't know how you scout a Z, but I don't leave my scout in his base when I have seen gas and pool go down. I retreat a bit and scout a min later or so, and there is no way you are going to deny me vision of the roach warren without delaying your roaches A LOT. Then that's your own fault for poor scouting. That has nothing to do with the build order. And drones would be first. You have the larvae for at least 2 extra. There is a definite economic advantage to waiting on the roach warren (extra drones = extra income). A roach warren that sits there and doesn't even produce an efficient amount of roaches is useless. No, you do not have the extra larvae and you cannot spend the 150 minerals on anything else (minus maybe a spine crawler which you don't need?). This build order is better. On October 19 2010 03:57 Logo wrote:
You can/should delay the warren until the queen is 70% done and then the warren will pop RIGHT as the vomit larva is coming off the hatchery. There's no reason to make it any earlier. Use the extra minerals to power out whatever else you want.
Also being broke generally is good. Of course if a build is sub-optimal and you could have more stuff at the same exact time then that's a problem, but you want to be broke as it means you are making use of your entire economy.
If it's a supply thing then just extractor trick at 17 to get the queen building. The extra drone time will make up for the cost of the extractor trick.
You can just bank the extra money and use it to expand sooner once the roaches are out. I do not actually want/need criticism, I am just throwing this BO down in order to help some people and if you have any questions I will answer them, but I do not need any 'you shud delay dis lolol'-replies that are false. even flash talks about the fact that there are STILL things he needs to work on in his build timing's and he's God Tier PLUS the game's been out for 10 years there are always ways to improve, i'm 100% positive your way isn't perfect and even if it was, we got 2 more expansions to go
He's not saying the BO is the best possible order, he's saying that it's better than the other 7RR. Some posts point out the difference between this BO and the old 7RR build and tell him it's less efficient. His response is something like.. "look, the timings don't lie, I've explained why it's better".
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On October 19 2010 07:46 ltortoise wrote:
I don't really understand all this talk of denying scouting.
Is it really that important? A solid build can do some damage and pay for itself even if it's scouted and your opponent knows for sure it's coming. If you lose all ability to do damage just because they scout the Roach Warren, my only conclusion would be that the whole strategy just isn't very good.
I mean sure, denying scouting always improves the build... But is it so important that you want to do your build less efficiently?
A strong timing should be strong even if they know it's coming.
-_-
not when its something like a roach rush. Youd have a valid point in BW with mutas since they are strong regardless but......come on you have to be able to see denying scouting is important for a situation like this
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On October 19 2010 04:30 sylverfyre wrote:
Extractor trick costs 25 minerals? More like 6. 1 for cancel penalty and about 5 for lost mining time. No more than 5.
If 1 build has the same stuff at time X and 150 MORE MINERALS than another, I think it's safe and totally factual that it's 100% superior - it's just optimized better. Deal, it's a provable fact. Provide some replays or calculated BO timing or whatever if you want to disprove. If the build has less drones or something (it doesn't) or whatever, then ok, fine, it has a disadvantage.
Its not "totally factual" and its not "superior" its been tested and proven your wrong. At most there is a 16 mineral difference between the styles.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133917
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On October 20 2010 03:59 valckrie wrote:
10 ovie
10 pool
15 extractor
15 queen
18 warren
18 ovie
18 ovie
injecting when queen pops, and making roaches as soon as minerals allow
will get 7 roaches out by 4;40 optimal time, 4:50 real time give or take a few seconds
also, less time wasted with the roach warren idling. this gets you the fastest roaches afaik, and you might be wondering, 10 pool so early? but its not, it allows you to get the queen earlier so and times it so that when your round of injection lava pops you can make most of the roaches
After a little testing, just as I suspected, 11OL/11Pool gets roaches a few seconds faster than this, has more available larvae after building the roaches, and has slightly more resources as well.
Overpool finishes the 7th roach at just under 5 minutes (repeated tests showed times varying from 4:58-5:00), and it had 275/53 resources available at that time.
11Pool finishes the 7th roach at 4:55, had 259/65 at that time, but 12 workers on minerals will bring in about 8 minerals per second, so it would have slightly more resources 3 seconds later. It also had 2 additional larvae compared to the overpool.
Overpool is bad in this game. Period. End of story. You should never be doing it.
But using a 9OL start into a 14pool and extractor tricking to 19/18 for the queen, I was able to squeeze in 2 extra drones and only delay the first 7 roaches until 5:05, at which point I had 354/93 resources.
Anyway, you might want to consider not going overpool if your goal is to get the queen faster for larvae. Because you're wasting enough extra early larvae that it's simply not worth it. If you really want those extra seconds, go for 11Pool instead.
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On October 20 2010 05:00 CowFu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 04:30 sylverfyre wrote:
Extractor trick costs 25 minerals? More like 6. 1 for cancel penalty and about 5 for lost mining time. No more than 5.
If 1 build has the same stuff at time X and 150 MORE MINERALS than another, I think it's safe and totally factual that it's 100% superior - it's just optimized better. Deal, it's a provable fact. Provide some replays or calculated BO timing or whatever if you want to disprove. If the build has less drones or something (it doesn't) or whatever, then ok, fine, it has a disadvantage. Its not "totally factual" and its not "superior" its been tested and proven your wrong. At most there is a 16 mineral difference between the styles. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133917
Actually, if one build has the same stuff at time X and 150 more minerals, then it is totally factual that it is superior. That's just common sense. The rest of this isn't targeted at you in any way, just suggesting you re-read the statement you're attempting to refute there. 
As for the rest of the thread:
The fact of the matter is that none of the builds people are claiming are "optimal" in this thread are actually optimal at what they're trying to do.
The original poster was posting a build that's more economic than what he typically sees, while only sacrificing a few seconds in timing, but I was able to improve on the timings of his build by simply doing 9OL instead of an extractor trick, and using an extractor trick later to go to 19/18 rather than requiring the roach warren to be put down early, making it both more economic by squeezing out 2 extra drones, *and* faster, because the 7th roach pops sooner. (because the pool gets built faster, so the queen gets built faster, so the first inject is sooner)
And that one comes from somebody who has tried to reject any criticism in the thread at all because "he knows best", even though he clearly doesn't.
And I was able to improve on the overpool build by simply not doing an overpool, getting the 7th roach out *faster* by 11pooling instead of 10pooling, and having 2 extra larvae to play with to boot. I wasn't paying attention to the times when larvae were available during that test, but it's very possible you could squeeze 2 extra drones out of that one too. Or have 2 extra larvae available for more roaches, or whatever.
Seriously, there are a lot of people in this thread claiming they know the best way to do something, but haven't even spent time optimizing their own builds. Every time I see somebody put an overpool or an extractor trick in a build, it makes me cringe a little, because I know exactly what situations you should do those in (never, and extremely rarely, respectively).
Am I claiming the changes I've made make them the best possible builds? Absolutely not. I just improved on what was posted, given the things that I know about early zerg build orders. There may very well be a more optimal way of getting 7 roaches out ASAP. But if you're willing to sacrifice economy for the fastest possible roaches, it's pretty likely that 11pooling won't be beat by anything else, and given that the gap is already so small, I'd guess that the 14pool is probably as good a tradeoff as any, giving up some time for some economy.
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For what it's worth, I've tried the 12pool build from the other thread a few times (after changing 10OL to 9OL, which is *always* better), and can't get it to beat the (improved) 14pool by more than 2-3 seconds.
But both 12pool and 14pool will be 2 larvae ahead of the overpool version, as well as being more economically sound.
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Sorry for sounding dumb but ...
Is Overpool going 10 OL / 12 Pool?
Or extractor-trick 11/10 Pooling?
And is the consensus extractor trick is the way to go or 9 OL or 10 OL?
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Overpool is drone to 10, build an overlord, and build the pool on 10 before building any more drones. You really don't need to know what to call it though, because it's pretty much always bad.
9OL is the best way to go unless you're going to 11 or 12 pool *before* building the overlord. 12pool off a 9OL start gets the pool faster than a double extractor trick to 12, followed by an overlord, followed by a pool.
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12pool off a 9OL start gets the pool faster than a double extractor trick to 12, followed by an overlord, followed by a pool.
I was under the impression that if you did a double extractor trick to 12, you would pool first then overlord? Making an overlord first then a pool at 11 is kind of silly, and as you said a 9ovie into 12p is faster than that, but its not faster than pooling first at 12/10
Overpool finishes the 7th roach at just under 5 minutes (repeated tests showed times varying from 4:58-5:00), and it had 275/53 resources available at that time.
Are you sure about this? From my experiences it comes out faster than 4;58
11Pool finishes the 7th roach at 4:55, had 259/65 at that time, but 12 workers on minerals will bring in about 8 minerals per second, so it would have slightly more resources 3 seconds later. It also had 2 additional larvae compared to the overpool.
When you say 11ovie 11pool do you mean extractor trick to 11, overlord, then extractor trick to 11 again, then pool? Also why is it 12 workers on minerals, is it not 13 as you have 18 supply [2 for queen, no units, so rest 16 drones]; unless you built a ling.
Another not totally relevant point but if you build a ling when a 14pool finishes and you want to put down roach warren at 18, most of the time if the enemy is a good scout his worker will still be in your base and will see the roach warren if you put it down asap... most of the time if you dont want him to see you'll have to delay it by a few seconds. so sometimes, imo, a ling isnt worth making
I'll give the 11Ol 11p a try sometime since you say its better than overpooling
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On October 20 2010 23:53 valckrie wrote:Show nested quote +12pool off a 9OL start gets the pool faster than a double extractor trick to 12, followed by an overlord, followed by a pool. I was under the impression that if you did a double extractor trick to 12, you would pool first then overlord? Making an overlord first then a pool at 11 is kind of silly, and as you said a 9ovie into 12p is faster than that, but its not faster than pooling first at 12/10
That's exactly what an overpool is, making the overlord first then making the pool. And yes, 12pool building the pool first will get the pool faster, but you waste a *lot* of larvae spawn time that way, and it turns out that at least for getting 7 roaches out asap, it doesn't work as well as many of the other starts, because it leaves you short on money.
On October 20 2010 23:53 valckrie wrote:Show nested quote +Overpool finishes the 7th roach at just under 5 minutes (repeated tests showed times varying from 4:58-5:00), and it had 275/53 resources available at that time. Are you sure about this? From my experiences it comes out faster than 4;58
Quite sure. Exact timings might be different on different maps (I was using YABOT Blistering Sands), but I tested *many* times with each build. Note that was the finish time for the 7th roach though, and every build I tried except for a 14pool squeezing in extra drones had to wait on resources to build the last few roaches, not larvae. Which, by the way, means that if 7 roaches is the target, you can delay the initial parts of the build to get a better economy, which is why the 14pool timings are so much closer to all the other timings than you'd expect. You just have to choose what you're optimizing, the first roach or the seventh. If you're not going to move out until the 7th one is done, then it makes more sense to optimize for that.
On October 20 2010 23:53 valckrie wrote:Show nested quote +11Pool finishes the 7th roach at 4:55, had 259/65 at that time, but 12 workers on minerals will bring in about 8 minerals per second, so it would have slightly more resources 3 seconds later. It also had 2 additional larvae compared to the overpool. When you say 11ovie 11pool do you mean extractor trick to 11, overlord, then extractor trick to 11 again, then pool? Also why is it 12 workers on minerals, is it not 13 as you have 18 supply [2 for queen, no units, so rest 16 drones]; unless you built a ling.
There's no "extractor trick to 11 again" since the drone is still there? But yes, extractor trick to 11, overlord, then pool. It is pretty much *always* going to be better to do that than to overpool. As for worker count, I must have counted wrong, or missed one somehow. You're right, it should be 13 workers.
On October 20 2010 23:53 valckrie wrote:
Another not totally relevant point but if you build a ling when a 14pool finishes and you want to put down roach warren at 18, most of the time if the enemy is a good scout his worker will still be in your base and will see the roach warren if you put it down asap... most of the time if you dont want him to see you'll have to delay it by a few seconds. so sometimes, imo, a ling isnt worth making
I agree that the ling timing is cutting it *very* close, and that unless you chase the worker off *immediately* after the lings spawn, you're going to end up either delaying the warren or placing it in sight of the scout, but that's consistent no matter how you go about it, because the time you need to place the warren depends completely on the queen timing (if you don't have the warren down by the time the queen is 60-70% complete, the warren won't finish by the time your first inject is done), and obviously since the queen and the lings both depend on the pool, there's no way to get the lings faster. Still, though, it does help to not be scouted, and the scout will often leave immediately upon seeing the first two lings.
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Skrag, thanks for all the in-depth testing! When you say you are extractor-tricking your queen on 17, does that mean you are still getting your first extractor at 15 and tricking the 2nd extractor? And then warren on 18?
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On October 21 2010 03:02 BadassHamster wrote:
Skrag, thanks for all the in-depth testing! When you say you are extractor-tricking your queen on 17, does that mean you are still getting your first extractor at 15 and tricking the 2nd extractor? And then warren on 18?
Yes. Well, technically you're putting the warren down on 19, and because you've tricked to 19/18 rather than relying on building the warren to drop to 17 so you can build a drone back to 18, you can delay the warren as long as you feel you need to, in order to avoid being scouted. If it doesn't go down by the time the queen is about 70% done though, the warren won't be finished in time for the first inject, so you can't delay too long.
However, when I was testing 14pool, I built drones up to 17, then tricked to 19 for the queen. Doing this allows you to squeeze in an extra drone before the queen (because you're not building the warren with it), and one more drone after your next overlord finishes, which leaves you with enough minerals to expand right about the same time your 7th roach pops out. If you do want to get a set of lings to chase off the scout, you have to cut one drone, building up to 16 rather than 17, then you can extractor trick to 19/18 for the lings. That still would be better than placing the warren early, because the worker that would place the warren is still mining, and you don't give away your plan any earlier than you have to.
The full build order would be this:
Without a set of lings:
9OL
14 pool
15 extractor
Drone to 17
Build the second extractor just before the pool finishes so you have enough supply to start the queen, then cancel the extractor
19 overlord
19 overlord
Drone as soon as overlord pops (you can make this 2 drones if your timing is *perfect*, but if you're not perfect, you risk delaying the 7th roach while waiting for a larvae, putting the 7th roach a full 15 seconds behind the other 6. I only managed to squeeze that drone out without delaying the 7th roach about a third of the time)
Roach warren when queen is about 70% done
Warren and inject should both finish about the same time your hatch has 3 larvae. Those 3 + the 4 from the inject = 7 roaches.
To get a set of lings to try to chase off the scout, you'd need to stop droning at 16, still build an extractor before the pool finishes, and build a queen+lings before canceling the extractor. You do have a little bit of time between when the lings spawn and when you have to place the warren.
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I did this BO, but the opponent fought me off with two stalkers, two zealots, and an immortal by the time it arrived. It feels totally all-in because you're on one base after the attack dies.
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So after all the debate.. what is the consensus on the most optimal build for the 7RR?
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On November 08 2010 23:00 DeCoup wrote:
So after all the debate.. what is the consensus on the most optimal build for the 7RR?
It depends on how much economy you want to sacrifice to get the 7th roach out slightly faster, and whether you want to have a chance to chase off an enemy scout before placing the warren.
There isn't really an "optimal" build for anything. There are always tradeoffs, and you have to decide what your primary goal is.
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The optimal build is not doing gimmicky all ins and learning how to play so when you face better people you stand a chance.
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On November 09 2010 03:18 MorsCerta wrote:
The optimal build is not doing gimmicky all ins and learning how to play so when you face better people you stand a chance.
"Optimal" depends upon the situation, as said previously. A macro build is sub-optimal to early pressure, a turtle build is sub-optimal to a macro build, an aggressive build is sub-optimal to a turtle build, etc. Yes, the optimal build is catered to the player and the situation but that doesn't make this build any less optimal than a 14 hatch 15 pool. It is all situational.
I have won and lost because I chose the 7RR, but that is no different than any of the other builds I've done including the "standard" builds. Even "gimmicky" builds, as you call them, have their place for noobs and pros alike. I think we all understand that a build's viability depends on the skill of the players and the state of the game. What works today may not work tomorrow and what works for me may not work for you.
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On October 19 2010 03:53 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:
so the roach warren sits there collecting dust while 150 minerals could have went to anything more important?
Just saying your way is easily scoutable. The old way is better because you can at least chase a scout out first before shooting yourself in the face with this build. On what would you spend those 150 minerals, when you have no larvae? And you either need creep or speedlings to chase a scout away. I don't know how you scout a Z, but I don't leave my scout in his base when I have seen gas and pool go down. I retreat a bit and scout a min later or so, and there is no way you are going to deny me vision of the roach warren without delaying your roaches A LOT.
I completely agree it just isnt going to happan i can scout you 30 later and if it isnt down they im not worried about your 7 roaches shambling across the map at an incorrect push timing.
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The title of this thread is like nails on a chalkboard to me, as is the OP's attitude.
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it seems to me that econ is more important overall, and because zerg operates differently to protoss and terran perhaps this build is more optimal... but only seems useful against another zerg. roaches for me are always a problem in zvz.
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On November 09 2010 08:52 IPA wrote:
The title of this thread is like nails on a chalkboard to me, as is the OP's attitude.
Same here, especially when the counter he posted isn't even the most efficient 7RR.
And the logic used here is:
Make your Roaches rush later and you'll have more money.
to the OP:
I'll give you that the build is better than the first one you posted, but it sounds more like you've been screwing up the original build, and discovered a better way than the one you were doing before (which still isn't that good).
The point of the regular 7RR is not to win outright (bully if you do) but to give yourself a tremendous advantage and fast expand as soon as the roaches are leaving your base.
How can this be possible if the regular 7RR build leaves you 0min/gas when you finish? The answer is that you were building this incorrectly. Especially since you can't/didn't provide any links.
Here is the build order I came up with using evo-chamber that I like a lot. It is a macro-transition 7RR that comes out a full 20 seconds before the one you posted:
+ Show Spoiler +10 ExtractorTrick M:78 G:0 11 Overlord M:100 G:0 11 SpawningPool M:200 G:0 15 Extractor M:112 G:0 15 Overlord M:225 G:0 15 Queen M:154 G:0 17 +1 Drone on gas M:76 G:0 17 +1 Drone on gas M:76 G:0 17 Zergling M:121 G:5 18 +1 Drone on gas M:71 G:5 19 RoachWarren M:271 G:61 18 Overlord M:121 G:61 18 Roach M:477 G:166 20 Roach M:402 G:141 22 Roach M:327 G:116 24 Roach M:252 G  1 26 Roach M:177 G:66 28 Roach M:102 G:41 30 Roach M:77 G:27 At time: 4:51 Minerals: 177 Gas: 54 Supply: 33/34 Larva: 1
Three things this does better than your proposed build:
1) This build gets more drones than yours, and faster.
2) You lay down a hatch as soon as your Roaches leave the base, using all your extra minerals, rather than having an extra 142 gas sitting there for some unknown, unusable purpose (unless you're all-in, a poor idea if you're still mining, queen isn't otw to opponent's ramp since injection, etc).
3) you get 7 Roaches 20 seconds sooner.
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I was wondering what the cancel penalty was. 1? is that all? Hm. Anyways 7rr is great,to a point, just think it's kind of silly to talk like you just follow one exact BO no matter what. Mine always deviates a little simply by what I see my opponent doing. Anyways, yea, sylverfyre is onto something with his statement. ^^
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On November 09 2010 09:49 mlbrandow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 08:52 IPA wrote:
The title of this thread is like nails on a chalkboard to me, as is the OP's attitude. Same here, especially when the counter he posted isn't even the most efficient 7RR. And the logic used here is: Make your Roaches rush later and you'll have more money. to the OP: I'll give you that the build is better than the first one you posted, but it sounds more like you've been screwing up the original build, and discovered a better way than the one you were doing before (which still isn't that good). The point of the regular 7RR is not to win outright (bully if you do) but to give yourself a tremendous advantage and fast expand as soon as the roaches are leaving your base. How can this be possible if the regular 7RR build leaves you 0min/gas when you finish? The answer is that you were building this incorrectly. Especially since you can't/didn't provide any links. Here is the build order I came up with using evo-chamber that I like a lot. It is a macro-transition 7RR that comes out a full 20 seconds before the one you posted: + Show Spoiler +10 ExtractorTrick M:78 G:0 11 Overlord M:100 G:0 11 SpawningPool M:200 G:0 15 Extractor M:112 G:0 15 Overlord M:225 G:0 15 Queen M:154 G:0 17 +1 Drone on gas M:76 G:0 17 +1 Drone on gas M:76 G:0 17 Zergling M:121 G:5 18 +1 Drone on gas M:71 G:5 19 RoachWarren M:271 G:61 18 Overlord M:121 G:61 18 Roach M:477 G:166 20 Roach M:402 G:141 22 Roach M:327 G:116 24 Roach M:252 G 1 26 Roach M:177 G:66 28 Roach M:102 G:41 30 Roach M:77 G:27 At time: 4:51 Minerals: 177 Gas: 54 Supply: 33/34 Larva: 1 Three things this does better than your proposed build: 1) This build gets more drones than yours, and faster. 2) You lay down a hatch as soon as your Roaches leave the base, using all your extra minerals, rather than having an extra 142 gas sitting there for some unknown, unusable purpose (unless you're all-in, a poor idea if you're still mining, queen isn't otw to opponent's ramp since injection, etc). 3) you get 7 Roaches 20 seconds sooner.
is this build any better than this one:
10/10 Overlord
extractor trick
11 pool
10-15 drone
15 extractor (3 drones on gas asap)
14 drone
15 drone
16 queen
18/18 overlord
18/18 overlord
18 roach warren
17-29 roach
also from the evo chamber thing. seems to be decent, u can drop an expo as u move out and tech to lair if u want
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Is there a 15 hatch build order for optimal roaches?
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On November 09 2010 11:08 Subversion wrote:
is this build any better than this one:
10/10 Overlord
extractor trick
11 pool
10-15 drone
15 extractor (3 drones on gas asap)
14 drone
15 drone
16 queen
18/18 overlord
18/18 overlord
18 roach warren
17-29 roach
also from the evo chamber thing. seems to be decent, u can drop an expo as u move out and tech to lair if u want
I would think that the one I posted is SLIGHTLY faster/better because of the 11OL rather than the 10OL. Why make the OL before extractor trick? Faster 11th drone
Other than that it looks like they are pretty much the same. And for the record the fastest i've been able to execute this build is like 4:55, not 4:51 as in the BO. But my apm is low
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What is the point of denying scouting? If they see early gas they will 99% of the time assume roach rush in todays meta game. As protoss player i always throw down super fast robo and chrono immortal and that rush is fended off easily.
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On November 13 2010 11:50 Daray wrote:
What is the point of denying scouting? If they see early gas they will 99% of the time assume roach rush in todays meta game. As protoss player i always throw down super fast robo and chrono immortal and that rush is fended off easily.
First, your statement about early gas is entirely dependent on whether that gas was put down before or after the pool. If it's after, then it's probably roaches I agree, but before is almost always speedling.
A well-timed 2-gate robo with immortal chrono should see immo at ~5:45 with maybe 3-4 gateway units. The issue here is that on most maps, you're going to be attacked around 5:20-30. This means your gateway units will either be dead, or your workers will be heroically dying. If we're assuming players of roughly equal micro skill, you're most likely looking at your immo being solo vs. 5 or 6 roaches. And he's going to get roasted with only taking one down.
Now, a lot of 7RR come later because of poor execution and other reasons, but immo tech is not a reliable counter to properly executed 7RR in my opinion. It simply won't be out in time to beat the roaches wreaking havoc in your base.
Lastly, there is a very popular new build that involves 5RR+6speedling at the same time (~5:20-30) and if the first attack swaps armies, a simple switch to speedlings would probably put you at a large disadvantage.
I feel like the best, most reliable P counter to 7RR is simply make 2-3 cannons while getting gateway units, or going chrono 4-gate with a later wg (so you're producing units out of gates and time wg to finish after the roach push.)
TL;DR - I don't think many people would agree with you that chrono immortal rush is a reliable counter to 7RR timing.
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On November 13 2010 20:09 mlbrandow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 11:50 Daray wrote:
What is the point of denying scouting? If they see early gas they will 99% of the time assume roach rush in todays meta game. As protoss player i always throw down super fast robo and chrono immortal and that rush is fended off easily. First, your statement about early gas is entirely dependent on whether that gas was put down before or after the pool. If it's after, then it's probably roaches I agree, but before is almost always speedling. A well-timed 2-gate robo with immortal chrono should see immo at ~5:45 with maybe 3-4 gateway units. The issue here is that on most maps, you're going to be attacked around 5:20-30. This means your gateway units will either be dead, or your workers will be heroically dying. If we're assuming players of roughly equal micro skill, you're most likely looking at your immo being solo vs. 5 or 6 roaches. And he's going to get roasted with only taking one down. Now, a lot of 7RR come later because of poor execution and other reasons, but immo tech is not a reliable counter to properly executed 7RR in my opinion. It simply won't be out in time to beat the roaches wreaking havoc in your base. Lastly, there is a very popular new build that involves 5RR+6speedling at the same time (~5:20-30) and if the first attack swaps armies, a simple switch to speedlings would probably put you at a large disadvantage. I feel like the best, most reliable P counter to 7RR is simply make 2-3 cannons while getting gateway units, or going chrono 4-gate with a later wg (so you're producing units out of gates and time wg to finish after the roach push.)
TL;DR - I don't think many people would agree with you that chrono immortal rush is a reliable counter to 7RR timing.
I was drunk as fck when i made that post :D
Yeah you're right just tested and immo out around 5:45... I guess i had just gotten too confident about my build since all my opponents apparently sucked balls and did the rush wrong
Well placed first FF could make it work but meh :/
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I hope what I'm posting is good enough to justify resurrecting this thread. If not, just delete my post and yell at me. 
A friend of mine taught me a seven roach rush that I've been using to great effect. I'm in Gold, so maybe this won't work in higher leagues, but here it is. If I can remember how it goes...
You do a standard 9 overlord, 14-gas 14-pool. Get the queen and start ling speed as soon as pool finishes. Basically like a normal economical speedling opening. Get an overlord as soon as you hit 16 supply. Starting the queen should push it to 18 supply.
Drone to 21 supply. When the queen is about 2/3 done, drop the roach warren. This brings you back down to 20 supply. Get an overloard asap. Inject asap. Don't build anymore drones or any lings yet.
The larva inject should pop off as soon as the roach warren finishes. Inject asap and build all seven roaches. If it gets timed right, you should have just enough larva and resources to do it.
Build one overlord asap while the roaches are building.
By now, you should've scouted your opponent's location with a drone. Rally your roaches to their base so they get going the instant they hatch.
Now, the next batch of larva, make it all into zerglings. Rally the zerglings to your opponent's base as well.
Your roaches will be at least halfway to your opponent's base by the time the lings hatch. Since you got zergling speed, the lings will catch up to the roaches very quickly. This should allow you to hit with seven roaches AND a bunch of speedlings at the same time. And after you start the speedlings building, you should quickly have enough money to expand. And if they were going something greedy or they just plain weren't ready, you'll probably kill them or cripple their greed opening.
I normally don't do this rush against T or Z. But since P is my worst matchup, I'm going to be doing this against them whenever they forge fast expand. The speedlings can be a meat shield while I bust a hole in their wall, then I just run in and wreak havok. Usually I just go 15 hatch vs T. But in ZvZ, if I do a 14-gas 14-pool and I see that they did a 15-hatch or something else that's ridiculously greedy for ZvZ, I'll do this rush to punish them for it.
EDIT: I also don't understand all the hubbub about denying scouting. If you're Zerg vs non-Zerg, you should be getting your hatch pretty quick. 15 hatch vs Terran, and vs Toss even if you don't 15 hatch you can do your hatch right after pool for a safer fast expand. Roach rush delays your hatch at least until after you've started your roaches. They're going to know something is up the instant they see that you're on one base when you should've had a hatch by then. If you're Zerg vs Zerg, you probably shouldn't be roach rushing unless you see them doing something ridiculously greedy, like 15 hatch, because a ling rush will kill you before you get your roaches.
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Romania76 Posts
The build everyone else was talking about two years ago was designed in a whole different age of WoL, with smaller maps, a lot less game knowledge and several balance patches missing.
You seem to be referring to some sort of roach speedling allin. This will be scouted by any competent opponent and reacted on accordingly in higher leagues.
Understanding of "hubbub" will come in time, as you advance in higher leagues.
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It's not speed or amount of units that gets you, it's the unexpecting of it. Any decent player can make 4 cannons and hold your build upon scouting it, and the lack of lings and queen make it that you will always get scouted. The best roachrush is leenocks hatchcancel, because it tricks you into not wanting to spend too much money on defense.
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On September 16 2012 16:10 Amaroq64 wrote:I hope what I'm posting is good enough to justify resurrecting this thread. If not, just delete my post and yell at me. A friend of mine taught me a seven roach rush that I've been using to great effect. I'm in Gold, so maybe this won't work in higher leagues, but here it is. If I can remember how it goes... You do a standard 9 overlord, 14-gas 14-pool. Get the queen and start ling speed as soon as pool finishes. Basically like a normal economical speedling opening. Get an overlord as soon as you hit 16 supply. Starting the queen should push it to 18 supply. Drone to 21 supply. When the queen is about 2/3 done, drop the roach warren. This brings you back down to 20 supply. Get an overloard asap. Inject asap. Don't build anymore drones or any lings yet. The larva inject should pop off as soon as the roach warren finishes. Inject asap and build all seven roaches. If it gets timed right, you should have just enough larva and resources to do it. Build one overlord asap while the roaches are building. By now, you should've scouted your opponent's location with a drone. Rally your roaches to their base so they get going the instant they hatch. Now, the next batch of larva, make it all into zerglings. Rally the zerglings to your opponent's base as well. Your roaches will be at least halfway to your opponent's base by the time the lings hatch. Since you got zergling speed, the lings will catch up to the roaches very quickly. This should allow you to hit with seven roaches AND a bunch of speedlings at the same time. And after you start the speedlings building, you should quickly have enough money to expand. And if they were going something greedy or they just plain weren't ready, you'll probably kill them or cripple their greed opening. I normally don't do this rush against T or Z. But since P is my worst matchup, I'm going to be doing this against them whenever they forge fast expand. The speedlings can be a meat shield while I bust a hole in their wall, then I just run in and wreak havok. Usually I just go 15 hatch vs T. But in ZvZ, if I do a 14-gas 14-pool and I see that they did a 15-hatch or something else that's ridiculously greedy for ZvZ, I'll do this rush to punish them for it. EDIT: I also don't understand all the hubbub about denying scouting. If you're Zerg vs non-Zerg, you should be getting your hatch pretty quick. 15 hatch vs Terran, and vs Toss even if you don't 15 hatch you can do your hatch right after pool for a safer fast expand. Roach rush delays your hatch at least until after you've started your roaches. They're going to know something is up the instant they see that you're on one base when you should've had a hatch by then. If you're Zerg vs Zerg, you probably shouldn't be roach rushing unless you see them doing something ridiculously greedy, like 15 hatch, because a ling rush will kill you before you get your roaches.
It's not identical but it certainly reminds me of the following roach speedling allin that Travis posted as having major difficulties with over a year ago:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189683¤tpage=3#60
In my mind the defining feature was having an overlord to spot the P's ramp so roaches could snip blocking Zealots so lings could bust through. Had fun with that build while it worked.
It is totally different from the 7RR.
There are much [i[much[/i] more up to date builds and guides in the strat forum though:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284255
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Well as a P i must say that 7RR is actually really easy to hold.
It's just based on scouting.
A 14 gas is just such a rare thing and just yells to you "this is not current standard play, he will be aggressive 80%", so this will just force more cannons and additional scouting.
And after 7 RR fails P is just in such an awesome position for 7gate allin, or exp.
Though I agree, that Leenocks hatch cancel is really tricky.
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On September 17 2012 06:14 Rimak wrote:
Well as a P i must say that 7RR is actually really easy to hold.
It's just based on scouting.
A 14 gas is just such a rare thing and just yells to you "this is not current standard play, he will be aggressive 80%", so this will just force more cannons and additional scouting.
And after 7 RR fails P is just in such an awesome position for 7gate allin, or exp.
Though I agree, that Leenocks hatch cancel is really tricky.
What's tricky to hold is a HyuN-esqu roach ling attack with cancel off 3rd hatch-.
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