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I have seen a lot of people trying to 7RR me and I have read a few topics about the 7RR on this forum as well, and both in ladder, custom and the topics in this forum there is a suboptimal BO. The suboptimal BO is usually something like this:
+ Show Spoiler +10 overlord
12 pool
Drones until 15 and 14 extractor
14 drone
15 overlord
15 Queen and a set of lings
18 drone
roach warren when queen is almost done
18 overlord
This will give you your roaches at roughly 5 mins, leaving you absolutely broke (I'm talking like 0 minerals 0 gas). Instead, use the following BO:
+ Show Spoiler +11 overlord (use extractor trick when at 10/10, make overlord at 11)
3 drones at 11 (you will have 2 larvae ready to morph when the overlord pops and the third one will follow in like half a second)
14 pool
13 drone, get gas ASAP
drones till 17, pool should finish now
17 roach warren
16 queen
18 overlord
19 set of lings
20 overlord
-save up-
20 7 roaches
It leaves you with much more money and gas, while not delaying (unless 4-5 seconds is somehow not negligible) your roaches.
Example rec:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/92609-1v1-zerg-blistering-sands
(note: I made 1 set of lings too many, at 20. At 20 you should not make lings, I just did not want to start all over again)
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so the roach warren sits there collecting dust while 150 minerals could have went to anything more important?
Just saying your way is easily scoutable. The old way is better because you can at least chase a scout out first before shooting yourself in the face with this build.
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On October 19 2010 03:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:
so the roach warren sits there collecting dust while 150 minerals could have went to anything more important?
Just saying your way is easily scoutable. The old way is better because you can at least chase a scout out first before shooting yourself in the face with this build.
On what would you spend those 150 minerals, when you have no larvae?
And you either need creep or speedlings to chase a scout away. I don't know how you scout a Z, but I don't leave my scout in his base when I have seen gas and pool go down. I retreat a bit and scout a min later or so, and there is no way you are going to deny me vision of the roach warren without delaying your roaches A LOT.
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Roach warren logically only needs to finish at the same time as inject larvae but its a cool build.
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On October 19 2010 03:54 Slayer91 wrote:
Roach warren logically only needs to finish at the same time as inject larvae but its a cool build.
Timing the Roach Warren with the popping of spawn larvae results in suboptimal build orders. Although it may look fancy on the replay, getting that timing right and all, it is better to plant down your RW earlier so you can squeeze out an extra 1-supply-worth unit.
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On October 19 2010 03:53 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:
so the roach warren sits there collecting dust while 150 minerals could have went to anything more important?
Just saying your way is easily scoutable. The old way is better because you can at least chase a scout out first before shooting yourself in the face with this build. On what would you spend those 150 minerals, when you have no larvae? And you either need creep or speedlings to chase a scout away. I don't know how you scout a Z, but I don't leave my scout in his base when I have seen gas and pool go down. I retreat a bit and scout a min later or so, and there is no way you are going to deny me vision of the roach warren without delaying your roaches A LOT.
Then that's your own fault for poor scouting. That has nothing to do with the build order.
And drones would be first. You have the larvae for at least 2 extra. There is a definite economic advantage to waiting on the roach warren (extra drones = extra income). A roach warren that sits there and doesn't even produce an efficient amount of roaches is useless.
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You can/should delay the warren until the queen is 70% done and then the warren will pop RIGHT as the vomit larva is coming off the hatchery. There's no reason to make it any earlier. Use the extra minerals to power out whatever else you want.
Also being broke generally is good. Of course if a build is sub-optimal and you could have more stuff at the same exact time then that's a problem, but you want to be broke as it means you are making use of your entire economy.
If it's a supply thing then just extractor trick at 17 to get the queen building. The extra drone time will make up for the cost of the extractor trick.
You can just bank the extra money and use it to expand sooner once the roaches are out.
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I want to point out that you can also do an extractor trick on the 18overlord if you want. I think for these build orders it would just the lings out slightly faster though.
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On October 19 2010 03:55 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:54 Slayer91 wrote:
Roach warren logically only needs to finish at the same time as inject larvae but its a cool build. Timing the Roach Warren with the popping of spawn larvae results in suboptimal build orders. Although it may look fancy on the replay, getting that timing right and all, it is better to plant down your RW earlier so you can squeeze out an extra 1-supply-worth unit.
It doesntn matter if your build is "more optimal" you need to have a set of lings out before the warren starts to deny scout. A scouted roach rush will do little to no damage and leave you way far behind. Also, I dont think the intial build you posted is good either (the "doing it wrong" build)
IMO it shoul dbe more like:
9 overlord
14 extractor
14 pool
15 overlord
15 Queen and a set of lings and +2 drones
(Can afford ling speed here if you want, if not, pull drones off gas)
roach warren when scout is denied
overlord as soon as queen pops (~20 supply)
Make roaches
throw down expo
attack
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On October 19 2010 03:57 Logo wrote:
If it's a supply thing then just extractor trick at 17 to get the queen building. The extra drone time will make up for the cost of the extractor trick.
I like this solution
I did the latter build and it just had a flow with how the supply/money works.
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@Chriamon won't 14/14 slow the roach timing down a non-trivial amount compared to 14/13?
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On October 19 2010 03:57 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:53 the p00n wrote:On October 19 2010 03:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:
so the roach warren sits there collecting dust while 150 minerals could have went to anything more important?
Just saying your way is easily scoutable. The old way is better because you can at least chase a scout out first before shooting yourself in the face with this build. On what would you spend those 150 minerals, when you have no larvae? And you either need creep or speedlings to chase a scout away. I don't know how you scout a Z, but I don't leave my scout in his base when I have seen gas and pool go down. I retreat a bit and scout a min later or so, and there is no way you are going to deny me vision of the roach warren without delaying your roaches A LOT. Then that's your own fault for poor scouting. That has nothing to do with the build order. And drones would be first. You have the larvae for at least 2 extra. There is a definite economic advantage to waiting on the roach warren (extra drones = extra income). A roach warren that sits there and doesn't even produce an efficient amount of roaches is useless.
No, you do not have the extra larvae and you cannot spend the 150 minerals on anything else (minus maybe a spine crawler which you don't need?). This build order is better.
On October 19 2010 03:57 Logo wrote:
You can/should delay the warren until the queen is 70% done and then the warren will pop RIGHT as the vomit larva is coming off the hatchery. There's no reason to make it any earlier. Use the extra minerals to power out whatever else you want.
Also being broke generally is good. Of course if a build is sub-optimal and you could have more stuff at the same exact time then that's a problem, but you want to be broke as it means you are making use of your entire economy.
If it's a supply thing then just extractor trick at 17 to get the queen building. The extra drone time will make up for the cost of the extractor trick.
You can just bank the extra money and use it to expand sooner once the roaches are out.
No, there are plenty of reasons to make it earlier. An extractor trick gives you a slight idle time on one of your drones and also slightly less minerals due to the cancellation penalty.
I do not actually want/need criticism, I am just throwing this BO down in order to help some people and if you have any questions I will answer them, but I do not need any 'you shud delay dis lolol'-replies that are false.
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On October 19 2010 03:55 the p00n wrote:
Timing the Roach Warren with the popping of spawn larvae results in suboptimal build orders.
I don't follow. Each drone harvests approximate 1 mineral per sec. If your Warren sits idle before you are ready to use it, then you effectively lost 1min/sec while it was idle. 15-20 minerals is small change. But I cannot understand how it is suboptimal.
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On October 19 2010 04:08 Hammurabio wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:55 the p00n wrote:
Timing the Roach Warren with the popping of spawn larvae results in suboptimal build orders. I don't follow. Each drone harvests approximate 1 mineral per sec. If your Warren sits idle before you are ready to use it, then you effectively lost 1min/sec while it was idle. 15-20 minerals is small change. But I cannot understand how it is suboptimal.
You will be able to make an extra drone earlier (when you would normally make an overlord), and this results in more minerals. You could check the replay I provided in the OP and then do the 'usual' 7RR build or whichever build you think is better, comparing minerals when the roaches pop. Maybe you have a better build - I don't know; but the ones I have seen in ladder and on this forum are inferior to the build in the OP.
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On October 19 2010 04:06 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:57 Amber[LighT] wrote:On October 19 2010 03:53 the p00n wrote:On October 19 2010 03:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:
so the roach warren sits there collecting dust while 150 minerals could have went to anything more important?
Just saying your way is easily scoutable. The old way is better because you can at least chase a scout out first before shooting yourself in the face with this build. On what would you spend those 150 minerals, when you have no larvae? And you either need creep or speedlings to chase a scout away. I don't know how you scout a Z, but I don't leave my scout in his base when I have seen gas and pool go down. I retreat a bit and scout a min later or so, and there is no way you are going to deny me vision of the roach warren without delaying your roaches A LOT. Then that's your own fault for poor scouting. That has nothing to do with the build order. And drones would be first. You have the larvae for at least 2 extra. There is a definite economic advantage to waiting on the roach warren (extra drones = extra income). A roach warren that sits there and doesn't even produce an efficient amount of roaches is useless. No, you do not have the extra larvae and you cannot spend the 150 minerals on anything else (minus maybe a spine crawler which you don't need?). This build order is better. Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 03:57 Logo wrote:
You can/should delay the warren until the queen is 70% done and then the warren will pop RIGHT as the vomit larva is coming off the hatchery. There's no reason to make it any earlier. Use the extra minerals to power out whatever else you want.
Also being broke generally is good. Of course if a build is sub-optimal and you could have more stuff at the same exact time then that's a problem, but you want to be broke as it means you are making use of your entire economy.
If it's a supply thing then just extractor trick at 17 to get the queen building. The extra drone time will make up for the cost of the extractor trick.
You can just bank the extra money and use it to expand sooner once the roaches are out. No, there are plenty of reasons to make it earlier. An extractor trick gives you a slight idle time on one of your drones and also slightly less minerals due to the cancellation penalty. I do not actually want/need criticism, I am just throwing this BO down in order to help some people and if you have any questions I will answer them, but I do not need any 'you shud delay dis lolol'-replies that are false.
So basically you made this topic to spread your godly knowledge to lesser people and you don't need to hear their opinions or criticism? I'm not really following why you'd make a topic if it wasn't to start discussion.
Meanwhile for the rest of us we're interested in hearing the different ways to accomplish something and the pros/cons of doing so. An extractor trick costs ~25 or so minerals when you factor in the drone's idle time. Said drone should harvest ~35 minerals by the time you throw down the warren so you should come out even at the very least while also providing a BO that's harder to scout and more flexible in case of an "OH SHIT" moment where you realize something terrible is about to go down (say you scout something that makes you think your roaches would be ineffective like gate-core-gate chronoboosted stalkers or I dunno what).
With the later warren the important thing you can also do is fake the 20 expand using your lings. Anyone that scouts warren + no expand knows immediately what is up.
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On October 19 2010 04:06 the p00n wrote:
I do not actually want/need criticism, I am just throwing this BO down in order to help some people and if you have any questions I will answer them, but I do not need any 'you shud delay dis lolol'-replies that are false.
Then you should have labeled this thread [GG] for God Guide because apparently this is the only way to do it and everyone else is automatically wrong. You keep ignoring the fact that the way most people do it (delayed roach warren) DOES allow you to deny the scout for the roach warren, which as many people have already stated is required for this to even work. If you think it's impossible to deny the scout with two lings and a queen you are quite wrong.
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The roach rush build i use is
9 ol
13 spawn
13 gas
15 ol
queen
roach warren when queen is 75% done
ol when queen is done
inject
The larva and the warren should pop at the same time.
Depending on whether or not you get speed for lings you should have enough gas for however many larva u saved up for the roaches.
As soon as ur roaches pop u should have enough for an expansion also.
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On October 19 2010 04:05 Logo wrote:
@Chriamon won't 14/14 slow the roach timing down a non-trivial amount compared to 14/13?
Well, the reason I do 14/14 is because I dont have to decide on a roach rush until the queen is 75% done. I will have scout of the opponent, and will have denied their scout, so I can go for the rush or just a standard speedling expo build.
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11 overlord (use extractor trick when at 10/10, make overlord at 11)
3 drones at 11 (you will have 2 larvae ready to morph when the overlord pops and the third one will follow in like half a second)
This build order is better
i think you are trolling hard
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Extractor trick costs 25 minerals? More like 6. 1 for cancel penalty and about 5 for lost mining time. No more than 5.
If 1 build has the same stuff at time X and 150 MORE MINERALS than another, I think it's safe and totally factual that it's 100% superior - it's just optimized better. Deal, it's a provable fact. Provide some replays or calculated BO timing or whatever if you want to disprove. If the build has less drones or something (it doesn't) or whatever, then ok, fine, it has a disadvantage.
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EPT
