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On October 19 2010 07:46 ltortoise wrote:
I don't really understand all this talk of denying scouting.
Is it really that important? A solid build can do some damage and pay for itself even if it's scouted and your opponent knows for sure it's coming. If you lose all ability to do damage just because they scout the Roach Warren, my only conclusion would be that the whole strategy just isn't very good.
I mean sure, denying scouting always improves the build... But is it so important that you want to do your build less efficiently?
A strong timing should be strong even if they know it's coming.
Aye, indeed this is what differentiates this kind of early aggression build from a cheese all-in. If your build is scouted, it still needs to be able to put on some pressure or easily transition out. Denying scouting is great, but a T can drop a scan at ANY point given the random matchups on the ladder.
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On October 19 2010 07:23 Turing wrote:
You don't throw down the warren until the two lings take out the scout. Two lings at your ramp should be able to take out most if not all scouting workers.
At which point the player will go "oh, he didnt have a hatch going down, and didnt want me to scout, he cant have a lair going up yet, so... roaches." Thus denying the scout didnt deny the scout and cost you larva and minerals that could have gone to drones. There may be other good reasons to get the lings, but denying the scout isnt one of them since you cant actually do it that early in the game against a player that knows anything about timings.
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On October 19 2010 08:08 Kogut wrote:
Aye, indeed this is what differentiates this kind of early aggression build from a cheese all-in. If your build is scouted, it still needs to be able to put on some pressure or easily transition out. Denying scouting is great, but a T can drop a scan at ANY point given the random matchups on the ladder.
Unless terran spend his first 50 energy on a scan, the second scan comes when your roaches are almost completed if not already marching toward his base, so it's too late for them to set up proper defense.
On October 19 2010 08:09 Hyperion2010 wrote:
At which point the player will go "oh, he didnt have a hatch going down, and didnt want me to scout, he cant have a lair going up yet, so... roaches." Thus denying the scout didnt deny the scout and cost you larva and minerals that could have gone to drones. There may be other good reasons to get the lings, but denying the scout isnt one of them since you cant actually do it that early in the game against a player that knows anything about timings.
Not true, your lings should chased the scout away at around 18-19 food, and ling-speed --> expand happens at 21 food, so the opponent don't know you are not expanding. also 5/7RR follows the same BO as speedling opening and baneling all in, so no your opponent doesn't know if you are going roaches. And all zerg builds you should always get at least 1 set of lings as soon as your pool is done, and the purpose is to deny enemy scout and scout opponents ramp afterward. So yeah, denying scout is one of the reasons for that set of lings.
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@OP, so your saying your build is more optimal than others because you end up with more res and not completely broke afterwards. That's the feeling I got reading through here.
You say that when you hit 150mins you throw down your Roach Warren, due to there being nothing else to build due to no larva so you throw down a Roach Warren. Somehow that leads to the most optimal build.
You completely disregard that Z loses a drone when building buildings. If that building is not gonna be doing anything worth-while for however long, it's not worth building yet. Hence you see players holding off on the Warren until much later.
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why has nobody linked the best 7RR?
+ Show Spoiler +The way to read this is:
@ -- This is at... so at 0 minutes and 0 seconds, you have
M: Minerals
G: Gas
L: Larvae
Supply: 6.0 of 10
Drone -- build a drone
@1fetc -- ignore. Just an address.
@0:0 M:50 G:0 L:3 S:6.0/10 Drone@1fc9896
@0:12 M:51 G:0 L:2 S: 7.0/10 Drone@85bc91
@0:15 Larva+1
@0:17 Drone+1
@0:23 M:52 G:0 L:2 S:8.0/10 Drone@1ee85f
@0:29 Drone+1
@0:30 Larva+1
@0:33 M:54 G:0 L:2 S: 9.0/10 Drone@129e853
@0:40 Drone+1
@0:45 Larva+1
@0:50 Drone+1
@0:50 M:106 G:0 L:2 S:10.0/10 Overlord@53b641
@1:0 Larva+1
@1:15 Overlord+1
@1:15 Larva+1
@1:18 M:202 G:0 L:3 S:10.0/18 SpawningPool@1e2a632
@1:26 M:52 G:0 L:3 S: 9.0/18 Drone@10d3219
@1:34 M:52 G:0 L:2 S:10.0/18 Drone@1898dfc
@1:41 Larva+1
@1:42 M:52 G:0 L:2 S:11.0/18 Drone@1c8d07e
@1:43 Drone+1
@1:49 M:51 G:0 L:1 S:12.0/18 Drone@f03da2
@1:51 Drone+1
@1:56 Larva+1
@1:56 M:55 G:0 L:1 S:13.0/18 Drone@5e6792
@1:59 Drone+1
@2:6 Drone+1
@2:11 Larva+1
@2:11 M:135 G:0 L:1 S:14.0/18 Drone@1e1e208
@2:11 M:85 G:0 L:0 S:15.0/18 Extractor@be887e
@2:13 Drone+1
@2:23 Spawning Pool+1
@2:26 Larva+1
@2:26 M:196 G:0 L:1 S:14.0/18 Drone@19c8632
@2:27 M:155 G:0 L:0 S:15.0/18 Queen@12e6b9b
@2:28 Drone+1
@2:41 Extractor+1
@2:41 Larva+1
@2:41 M:141 G:1 L:1 S:17.0/18 Drone@9a8db8
@2:43 Drone+1
@2:48 M:150 G:15 L:0 S:18.0/18 RoachWarren@ce3285
@2:56 Larva+1
@2:56 M:62 G:30 L:1 S:17.0/18 Drone@156dd0d
@2:58 Drone+1
@3:11 Larva+1
@3:11 M:139 G:58 L:1 S:18.0/18 Overlord@1ca9ff1
@3:13 Drone+1
@3:17 Queen+1
@3:26 Larva+1
@3:26 M:175 G:87 L:1 S:18.0/18 Overlord@1ca9057
@3:36 Overlord+1
@3:36 M:167 G:106 L:0 S:18.0/26 EcActionWait@1ca46d3
@3:41 Larva+1
@3:41 M:213 G:115 L:1 S:18.0/26 EcActionWait@effef4
@3:43 Roach Warren+1
@3:43 M:231 G:119 L:1 S:18.0/26 EcActionWait@4b843a
@3:43 M:231 G:119 L:1 S:18.0/26 Roach@1d60d6d
@3:51 Overlord+1
@3:56 Larva+1
@3:56 M:280 G:119 L:1 S:20.0/34 Roach@b752d
@4:2 Larva+4
@4:2 M:265 G:105 L:4 S:22.0/34 Roach@39e69c
@4:2 M:195 G:80 L:3 S:24.0/34 Roach@1532379
@4:2 M:125 G:55 L:2 S:26.0/34 Roach@13e0bc6
@4:5 M:83 G:36 L:1 S:28.0/34 Roach@770c65
@4:10 Roach+1
@4:11 Larva+1
@4:13 M:86 G:26 L:1 S:30.0/34 Roach@1cec45b
@4:23 Roach+1
@4:26 Larva+1
@4:29 Roach+1
@4:29 Roach+1
@4:29 Roach+1
@4:32 Roach+1
@4:40 Roach+1
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=160231
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Ok, the BO that is the "sub optimal" is the one I posted in a different OP.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=161586
My 7rr bo does leave you broke... 0minerals, 0 gas, 0 larvae, 2 supply left, and 7 roaches out sooner than your build. What deals more damage, money in the bank or faster roaches? And you make it sound like having money left over is good. Its all about the timing attack. There are many ways to go 7roach, but i like the ones that deny scouting, and get them out as fast as possible, cutting corners. The 7 roaches can only come out as fast as the larvae pops, and that only comes out as fast as you can get pool. Other than that, you need enough money to make them at that timing, and other than that, you SHOULD also want to deny the scout. My BO takes all those and wraps em up nice and tight.
Being broke at the moment you make the 7 roaches isn't a bad thing. That just means you cut enough corners to get the roaches out as fast as possible. I like having the roaches out as soon as possible while also getting lings to kill scout. No need for a super economic opening into 7roaches, as making 7 roaches a little later is just as bad economically, because it reduces the strength of that rush by delaying it, thus, not being able to deal as much damage.
Also by showing your tech, your giving away time that you spent cutting corners, just to show your tech, giving the opponent that much more time to prepare and respond.
The strategy of my BO is that it is done blind. It isn't a responsive build order like 13/13 or 14/14, scouting, denying scouting, 5/7 roach rush variants. It has to be done as fast as possible if its blind. If you want a more economic and responsive build, the 5RR or other variants are good. If you want to rely purely on having a stronger fighting force and micro to gain the lead, try a fast 7roach.
When done fast enough, they HAVE to pull their SCVs or probes, bringing them to your roaches, thus, reducing the whole "Stalkers kite you forever". I actually don't suggest doing a blind version vs terran as they can get a marauder out and bunker, and/or make a 'banebust' proof wallin, etc. But against protoss, I estimate they will have maybe 2 stalkers, a zealot, and a sentry. Take any longer, and they will have 4 stalkers, sentry with more energy, and a zealot. Attack soon enough and they have to pull probes or run probes, or they lose pylons and gates.
On October 19 2010 09:42 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
why has nobody linked the best 7RR?
That build doesn't get lings to deny the scout. It is rather fast though, but countered because the fast pool is spotted by scout, and that already sends up warning signs to prepare to defend. When they see you not saving larvae for lings, they know its roach 100%. You also have to scout with a drone right after the roaches start to find their base if its not a 1v1, while the lings can find it if you made them. 7 Roaches heading to the wrong base doesn't make the extra timing worth much. But you can always scout with the OL and a drone right as you start the roaches I supose. It feels tons more risky.
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Oh this building seems great, I could pull out 1 banshee(+research cloak) 7 rines 1 bunker and a half second bunker in the same time, but if i didnt knew it was coming without the bunker would be an auto gg ...
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Take it for what it's worth. I am only a Gold player right now, but I have a 15-game winning streak using this 7 RR strategy right now with my last 7 wins coming against Top 30 Platinum players. I am using the following build: (P00RKID's build)
+ Show Spoiler +10 OL
12 Pool
14 Extractor
15 OL
15 Queen / Lings
18 Drone
@70% queen, Roach Warren
18 OL
7 Roaches when Larva Pop
Inject
Metabolic Boost
5 Drones when Larva Pop
Inject
Pump lings + rally to base
If the roaches don't outright win me the game (~50/50), I follow up with Slings rallied to the base. The Roaches have been breaking the wall every time and enemy has to pull workers and micro to kill off the roaches. This puts me ahead Econ-wise and if the roaches don't win, I have 6, 10, 18 and soon enough 24+ slings in transit to mop up when the wall is gone.
I also drop an expo shortly after the 5 Drones pop out, putting me at 2 bases to their 1 and severely crippling their econ if all else fails. In 15 games, the initial Roach/Sling attack has only not won outright 2 times, and at that point I was already teching to Lair, getting a Spire and building 6-8 Mutas while they are focusing on anti-roach/sling defense.
Great build for me right now.
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I just compared the OP replay and my fastest 7RR and here are the following differences:
The 6RR has 6 lings at ~4:00, the 7RR has 2 lings at ~3:30.
The 6RR finishes with 16 drones, the 7RR finishes with 16 drones.*
The 6RR finishes with 284/138, the 7RR finishes with 304/114.*
The 6RR finishes with 6 roaches at ~5:00, the 7RR finishes with 7 roaches at ~5:10.
* The drone count and mineral count are shifted because the OP replay made 6 lings instead of 4.
My BO tweaked from P00RKID:
+ Show Spoiler +
11 - OL
14 - Pool
14 - Extractor
@ Extractor 100% - 3 drones
15 - OL
@ Pool100% - Queen + 2 Lings
@ Queen ~75% - Roach Warren
18 - OL
19 - Drone
@ Queen 100% - Inject
@ Roach Warren 100% - 7 roaches
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Here are the last 5 or so 7RR's I just played. I'm only Gold, so my micro is kind of poor. Actually, watching my own replays I saw how bad it is at some parts. But I think these Rep's show the effectiveness of it. I was playing against a Platinum in all of these.
I could have went with more lings to win outright, but I was trying to mix in a FE and tech while pushing.
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@ KandLeMaN I watched the ZvP on blistering sands. I don't know if your used to pulling drones off gas at Gold level, but I usualy put gas drones on minerals after I have the initial 175 for the 7 roaches. You can use those minerals to get another hatchery up sooner. But if you want ling speed, leave them on, but you should start ling speed right away, you will have 100min and gas soon after the roaches are on the way if you keep them on the gas. By the time any walls are taken care of, you can have ling speed almost done and a good group of lings.
I like expanding though, so I pull drones off gas untill I can afford the 5drones after roaches + expo hatch.
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On October 19 2010 12:37 P00RKID wrote:
@ KandLeMaN I watched the ZvP on blistering sands. I don't know if your used to pulling drones off gas at Gold level, but I usualy put gas drones on minerals after I have the initial 175 for the 7 roaches. You can use those minerals to get another hatchery up sooner. But if you want ling speed, leave them on, but you should start ling speed right away, you will have 100min and gas soon after the roaches are on the way if you keep them on the gas. By the time any walls are taken care of, you can have ling speed almost done and a good group of lings.
I like expanding though, so I pull drones off gas untill I can afford the 5drones after roaches + expo hatch.
What do you do from 32/34 onward?
I've been building a drone and lings or drone, ovie, expand.
After the 7 Roaches, I'm not really sure if I should expand first before ovie, get metabolic or make 4 lings to accompany the roaches. I'm trying out different variations but I haven't found one just yet.
I guess I should pull off after I get the additional 100 for speed though.
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On October 19 2010 06:54 Kogut wrote:
It comes down to a simply phrase, popularized by Day9 recently: Larva are a resource.
Here's another one: If your BO relies that much on your opponent not scouting it, then it's a bad build.
It's not like not being scouted when going RR is auto-win. Some people just blindly go MM(eventually +M) or Stalkers(aiming for Blink+Colossi ball).
The Roaches allow you to be less passive, marauders or not. If you can put your 1st overlord near their ramp, you'll be able to snipe his buildings unless he has a bunker.
It's nice and all to kill that SCV. If anything it's one less worker for him. But I wouldn't sit in my base with these two lings: rather head them to X'N towers and gain vision of what's going on IMHO.
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On October 19 2010 08:08 Kogut wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 07:46 ltortoise wrote:
I don't really understand all this talk of denying scouting.
Is it really that important? A solid build can do some damage and pay for itself even if it's scouted and your opponent knows for sure it's coming. If you lose all ability to do damage just because they scout the Roach Warren, my only conclusion would be that the whole strategy just isn't very good.
I mean sure, denying scouting always improves the build... But is it so important that you want to do your build less efficiently?
A strong timing should be strong even if they know it's coming. Aye, indeed this is what differentiates this kind of early aggression build from a cheese all-in. If your build is scouted, it still needs to be able to put on some pressure or easily transition out. Denying scouting is great, but a T can drop a scan at ANY point given the random matchups on the ladder.
It's basically a cheese/all in build, you can call it aggressive but even so if it does more damage when not scouted, you should deny scouting. If T scans really early or he hides a scout and you miss it well that sucks but you don't want to hand out the info that you're going to go 1 base and get 7 roaches fast to him on a plate. if it makes a very marginal difference in the build. (extractor trick instead of fast roach warren would probably net more minerals and deny scouting).
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Isn't this whole discussion dumb since 7RR is flatout inferior to 5RR w/ speedlings?
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Sorry just as a T, I wanted to check how often 5 or 7 RR actually works... Bunker + repair = GG roach rush? Then hellion + hero thor with my marines and the game is over? I can't even think of a good reason not to build a bunker in time for dealing with a roach rush because I can just salvage it later. If I bunker after Fact and get an addon on my Rax I don't get supply blocked either due to the 100 minerals...
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Canada9720 Posts
On October 19 2010 04:06 the p00n wrote:
I do not actually want/need criticism, I am just throwing this BO down in order to help some people and if you have any questions I will answer them, but I do not need any 'you shud delay dis lolol'-replies that are false.
Tough nuts, that's what the strategy forum is all about. This isn't a trophy display case for you to admire your own reflection. You're lucky this didn't get closed, just because of that attitude.
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Couple tips for the original poster, although I'm sure he'll ignore them and maybe even flame me.
#1: 9OL is superior to 11OL, or 10OL, or 12OL. A quick test shows that doing your same build, but using 9OL instead of a trick, puts you ahead 20-25 minerals by the 3 minute mark.
#2: You can extractor trick to get to 19/18, delay the warren a little, and either have the ability to get a set of lings out to deny, or have an extra drone working. The people who have said there's no reason to place the warren until just before it's needed are correct. That drone could be mining.
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10 ovie
10 pool
15 extractor
15 queen
18 warren
18 ovie
18 ovie
injecting when queen pops, and making roaches as soon as minerals allow
will get 7 roaches out by 4;40 optimal time, 4:50 real time give or take a few seconds
also, less time wasted with the roach warren idling. this gets you the fastest roaches afaik, and you might be wondering, 10 pool so early? but its not, it allows you to get the queen earlier so and times it so that when your round of injection lava pops you can make most of the roaches
#1: 9OL is superior to 11OL, or 10OL, or 12OL. A quick test shows that doing your same build, but using 9OL instead of a trick, puts you ahead 20-25 minerals by the 3 minute mark.
For a less economical build like the roach rush the earlier queen is neccessary and more important than 20 minerals by 3 minutes
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On October 20 2010 03:59 valckrie wrote:Show nested quote +#1: 9OL is superior to 11OL, or 10OL, or 12OL. A quick test shows that doing your same build, but using 9OL instead of a trick, puts you ahead 20-25 minerals by the 3 minute mark. For a less economical build like the roach rush the earlier queen is neccessary and more important than 20 minerals by 3 minutes
If you're pooling on 12 or later, and building an overlord before the pool, 9OL is the fastest way to get the pool, and therefore the queen.
I've also run tests showing that overpool wastes enough larvae that it's not worth doing simply to get the queen faster. 11OL with an extractor trick and 11pool is going to be better.
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