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Zaka
Netherlands372 Posts
This seems to be the trend in a lot of replays I see of pro-gamers. For some reason people on ladder are dumber/smarter and actually destroy the turret and continue to harass the fuck out of your workers anyway (and force your army to defend). Don't get me wrong though, I would love to be able to defend my bases with just one turret, but on ladder, zerg just aren't buying it. :| | ||
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Cybren
United States206 Posts
Mutalisks are real sensitive. It's very easy to make them mad. And if a flock of mutalisks gets mad, they'll all fly into the enemies marines and thors | ||
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vyyye
Sweden3917 Posts
If you haven't noticed no one gives a rats arse about two cannons in the mineral line, Z users generally just kill them. They still do quite a bit of damage (not as much as turrets of course), but as they can't be repaired they're easy pickings. So yeah, the reason is summed up in the word "repair". | ||
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gr8ape
Canada302 Posts
srsly it takes 9 mutas to make attacking a turret cost effective | ||
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storm44
1293 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
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Yuan
United States2 Posts
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Raislin
United States144 Posts
It's like iEchoic said, Zergs seem to run away from single, vulnerable things that shoot up. | ||
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Akuemon
Canada151 Posts
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skot
United States1 Post
Multiple turrets are a different story. The main thing is you don't want to lose mutas to turrets while just giving them enough time to walk their army up and chase you away without achieving anything but killing a turret. In the example cited in the OP there was nothing nearby that would die in a hurry and the turret was fairly close to a ramp. At best IdrA would have killed the turret and flown off before getting anything else done. | ||
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pilsken
Germany441 Posts
Now consider that Thors have a range of 10 against air. That is huge. What happens now when you attack a Turret that might even get repaired with all your mutas stacked and you don't see the Thor coming (or maybe a Thor just pops from a factory nearby) -> maybe 7 of your 9 mutas are instantly into yellow hp, which is far from economic for one measily turret. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't just take down turrets when you have enough Mutas. But be damn sure that the Thors he almost certainly has are somewhere else, or you'll regret it. Rather look for another hole in the T's defense that can't shoot back if you're not completely sure. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
Muta's do their job by just being there, any damage on the Terran's economy is an added benefit. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
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Grebliv
Iceland800 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
As for me, I always rape their turrets if I have a critical mass of mutas! Although most of my opponents run scvs away and don't repair. I have sniped the repairing scvs and then finished the turret in some games, losing far too many mutas than I should but hey that was half of Terrans bases right. | ||
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blitzkrieger
United States512 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~obaoba/jeff%20goldblum2231421.gif) | ||
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mikiao
United States161 Posts
and while your mutas are taking out one structure, they're not being annoying somewhere else. Like picking off that tank at the end of my line....bastards | ||
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gogogadgetflow
United States2583 Posts
Edit: pilsken got it | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
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Slago
Canada726 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
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AviatE
Australia2 Posts
Idra's decision making on one of his MLG games on Xel'Naga caverns looked like this to me. It was mid game and Idra had ~ 10 mutas i think. While the Terran had a force of marines running around, it was more worth his time to take out vulnerable depots and addons as he could destroy these before the forces arrived and he had created some kind of advantage in the time it takes to rebuild it. He could probably have killed a mineral line turret before the marines got there, but then he would back off and the harass hasn't achieved anything. The turret would likely be rebuilt. The Terran force moved out to the middle, and was promptly pwned by Idra's blings and mutas, he then flew them immediately to the terran main and attacked a turret. Now that there was little left to kill the mutas it was worth gaining free access that that area of the base so that much pillaging could ensue. Of course, this was one specific game only. | ||
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RedTerror
New Zealand742 Posts
#1) are there marines or thors nearby? Going into a base to get at the turret makes you vulnerable to stimmed marines running up or thors that weren't in your vision 2) is the turret in the mineral line? SCVs mass repairing a turret is almost impossible to kill especially if he has the +2 building armour upgrade 3) are there more turrets further back? I may only see one turret when I'm flying around the edge of the base but if I swoop in and there are 2 or 3 additional turrets then I have to fly back out again while taking needless damage. You're mutas are to be kept alive at all costs, their whole point is to keep him in his base and to counter any harass units he has, they are not cost effective in combat and should not be exchanged in fights. | ||
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
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dave333
United States915 Posts
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
There's gonna be a lot more than just "mutas kill a turret" to consider in whether or not it's worth it. If you have 9 mutas and he doesn't have an army in his base at all, killing the turret that's guarding the SCVs is probably worth it. If he has a thor or a pack of marines or any kind of defense coming at your mutas, it's not worth it. killing the turret will mean 1 dead mutalisk. that means you lost more than he did, so it's only worth it if you can kill a lot MORE once that turret is out of the way. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
![[image loading]](http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/its_a_trap.jpg) You may be able to take the turret out, but if it's in the mineral line, he can simply run the scvs away. Or worse, stimmed marines (or even worse, a thor) could be there right when you look away. User was warned for this post | ||
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SeeDLiNg
United States690 Posts
Its the mutas short range that really makes us have to be VERY careful what we want to engage. | ||
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SiNoCiDe
Turkey67 Posts
On October 18 2010 09:10 blitzkrieger wrote: Zerg needs Mutalisks. Mutalisk needs gas. Gas is invisible.Turrets... turrets detect gas. Tur. Ets. Tourettes. A disease. Infestors have disease. Disease makes Terran sick. And they have to call in to work sick. They can't play starcraft. Conserve gas is the answer! + Show Spoiler + Genius, that was ridiculously funny. Actually had me laughing with the Goldblum pic. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
As others stated, mutas clump up to kill turrets (unless you magic box them, I suppose), which makse them vulnerable to thor shots, specifically that one that just finished, that one you couldn't see and that one that got trapped in between my poorly positioned buildings and cannot get out and I dno't have a medivac yet (I hate that last one. I feel so gosu for tight building placement and then OH FUCK ME!) Turrets are also really fucking strong. you need a LOT of mutas to safely clear a lot of Anti air, and there's not much point going for a turret anyway. It's a bit risky for not much rewards. Methinks Idra just wanted the SCV kill and felt content enough at that (hey, it all adds up right?) Also, idra is trying to ge ta big flock of mutas out. 25-30ish mutas. When you have that many and maybe an upgrade or three, mutas eat turrets up, but there's no point risking losing any until you have that flock up, so fuckit. | ||
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Pandoma
United States19 Posts
On October 18 2010 09:10 blitzkrieger wrote: Zerg needs Mutalisks. Mutalisk needs gas. Gas is invisible.Turrets... turrets detect gas. Tur. Ets. Tourettes. A disease. Infestors have disease. Disease makes Terran sick. And they have to call in to work sick. They can't play starcraft. Conserve gas is the answer! + Show Spoiler + This made my day, sir. hahaha | ||
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Tropical Bob
United States127 Posts
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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
That timeframe you do to take out the turret is not only damaging you but then terran is finding a way to cut off you're mutalisks with troops. | ||
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dan1mal
Netherlands86 Posts
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DamageInq
United States283 Posts
-Turrets can be repaired, causing your mutas to take unessicary damage or losses -Mutas always have to be on the move. If hit by a group of focused stimmed marines or blink stalkers you'll likely lose a muta. -Poking around the base even without doing damage is still very effective. It keeps the opponent in their base while allowing you to expand, extend creep and gain map control. And most importantly: -Mutas are 100/100 and very squishy. Turrets are cheap. If you attack the turret you're at a huge risk, the marines will come in and push you out, best case scenario you kill the turret with no loses and the terran rebuilds it. Worse case scenario is you lose some mutas and the terran gains back some of that map presence, feeling safe to move out. You can kill 2 turrets, if the terran kills 1 muta he is ahead. | ||
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ishboh
United States954 Posts
and as for "only having enough time to kill a turret and then flee when the stimmed marines show up": i personally would still take out the turret in case I wanted to come back after the marines left again. worst comes to worst he wastes more resources and time on building a turret | ||
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Gryffes
United Kingdom763 Posts
On October 18 2010 09:10 blitzkrieger wrote: Zerg needs Mutalisks. Mutalisk needs gas. Gas is invisible.Turrets... turrets detect gas. Tur. Ets. Tourettes. A disease. Infestors have disease. Disease makes Terran sick. And they have to call in to work sick. They can't play starcraft. Conserve gas is the answer! How does that tie in to Anaconda Malt Liquor? | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 18 2010 08:00 iEchoic wrote: I agree with you, and I've been saying this for a while. Zerg players have an irrational fear of anything that shoots air. I've played against high-level zerg players who will run 12 mutas from one lone, misplaced thor. As you said, they do the same with turrets. I think the issue is that if they bunch up by mistake. That one lone thor will bring all those 12 mutas down to red. Same thing as if they attack a turret and bunch up and a thor comes into range. That's all the muta gone. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
I feel like Mutalisk aggression in BW was much more persistent simply because no viable splash mechanisms could ambush the stack during its 1-3 swoops required to kill a defensive structure. | ||
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
Over agressive zerg will find their flappy mutas dead dead dead against a conservative terran player. | ||
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hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
if you don't fly over the turret then it's 100% useless and there's no point in wasting time. | ||
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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greycubed
United States615 Posts
On October 18 2010 08:00 iEchoic wrote: Thors can be repaired too, and although 4 mutas with micro can kill an unrepaired thor, to be cost effective you need quite a few more. Each muta is 100 gas, which is invaluable to a Zerg. It's really easy to lose a fuckton of gas really fast with mutas. They're pretty fragile so it's understandable to be really protective of them. I agree with you, and I've been saying this for a while. Zerg players have an irrational fear of anything that shoots air. I've played against high-level zerg players who will run 9 mutas from one lone, misplaced thor. As you said, they do the same with turrets. Also with the crazy thor range, you'll lose a muta or two during a retreat so you have to be sure that you can take the thor down. The thor can be hitting you long before you can see what's around it. So yeah usually if thor hits your muta you just run. | ||
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PegLegPete
United States5 Posts
There are always holes/weaknesses in the anti-air coverage of a base, so why intentionally take damage when you can keep poking around to find another hole that is less defended and will allow damage to be dealt. As day9 would say, go for guaranteed small damage with a low risk of defense, instead of the big damage with a high risk of defense. Taking out a few tech labs, reactors, or supply depots is an equally successful attack as killing a handful of workers, and if you didn't have one of your mutas damaged in the process, that's even sexier. Some players get very caught up in the idea that every harass should be on the harvesters -- don't forget the rest of the base is just as good of a target. | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
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goldenwitch
United States338 Posts
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