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On October 21 2010 06:41 Haploid wrote:
Alright, I've finally come around to including supply capacity. The calculator now checks for supply capacity when queueing units, and displays the capacity in the results.
Skrag, your second problem is covered by the strict mode option. In non-strict mode, the calculator takes some liberties and starts production of stuff as early as possible, which in this case means your Extractor can be built before Drone #15. You have the resources. I'll think about making strict mode the default, and I'll definitely find some better way of advertising what it does (maybe just rename it to "don't allow minor optimizations" or something).
And yes, these are the optimal conditions timings, which can never be obtained. You'll always have a 2 or 3 second delay at the very start, at least. I usually spend a full second just figuring out where my mouse cursor is, cause it's hidden on the load screen, and when the game commences, it's usually in some corner of the screen or something.
Can we implement a 3 second delay on starting mining and a 3 second loss of mining time for each structure getting built?
How about a scouting option where we remove a worker?
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BO :
9 overlord
15 hatchery
15 Spawning Pool
17 overlord
18 Extractor > put 3 on gas
Output:
10 1:58 3:38 15 / 18 Hatchery 0 0
11 2:24 3:29 14 / 18 Spawning Pool 50 0
12 3:38 3:55 13 / 20 Drone 676 0
13 3:38 3:55 14 / 20 Drone 626 0
Am i missing something on how to write BO or this is messed up
a) why is there 50 minerals after i build spawning pool
b) why is first probe start 10 sec after pool finishes?
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Got it and fixed it. Thanks, Deathfairy (good nickname, btw).
On October 21 2010 06:48 Sleight wrote:
Can we implement a 3 second delay on starting mining and a 3 second loss of mining time for each structure getting built?
How about a scouting option where we remove a worker?
Yes, and yes on the first two questions. There's already a scouting option, just write: 12 Gateway & Scout
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Very cool! Posting to show my support.
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IMO all the little timing problem can be resolved by allowing an @time build command. (which I mentioned in a previous post)
e.g.
9 Probe
@1:30 take 1 off mineral
@1:45 Nexus
Something like that. The calculator can then check if building something at a given time can be accomplished, and simply throw an error if it can not. Fixed delays from theoretical timing is never perfect because timing varies by person. With such a command combined with ability to put workers on and off mineral like on gas, any arbitrary delay could be accounted for.
So if people want to override the mining start time, they can write something like: @0:03 put 6 on mineral. With @time command you can also tell a scouting worker to come back to mining at a specific time if he survives, which may also be nice for some BOs.
Another problem I see is that right now it's hard to specify if you want a scouting SCV to build something (e.g. proxy), or want to pull a worker off to do it. The latter option actually may affect the economy quite a bit for a proxy build. I don't have any suggestion on that yet, besides the labelling idea I originally had which I still kind of liked: 
10 SCV [Henry] > scout with Henry
12 Barracks [Proxy] with Henry
Then maybe at a later time, "Tech Lab on Proxy" or "Reaper from Proxy" or something like that. So even if another barracks is available, calculator would know to wait and use the specified one. This could also affect when units come out, etc. Just thought it may be nice. :D
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One much needed adition is amount of larva avaliable at each point in time, would be greatly apreciated.
Doesnt look like hatches after spawn larve poped reset, trying to get second injection results into all hatches are still spawning larvae error
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On October 21 2010 06:41 Haploid wrote:
Alright, I've finally come around to including supply capacity. The calculator now checks for supply capacity when queueing units, and displays the capacity in the results.
Skrag, your second problem is covered by the strict mode option. In non-strict mode, the calculator takes some liberties and starts production of stuff as early as possible, which in this case means your Extractor can be built before Drone #15. You have the resources. I'll think about making strict mode the default, and I'll definitely find some better way of advertising what it does (maybe just rename it to "don't allow minor optimizations" or something).
And yes, these are the optimal conditions timings, which can never be obtained. You'll always have a 2 or 3 second delay at the very start, at least. I usually spend a full second just figuring out where my mouse cursor is, cause it's hidden on the load screen, and when the game commences, it's usually in some corner of the screen or something.
Don't get me wrong, the work you've done is incredibly awesome, but this tool would be *ridiculously* useful if it took a little bit of reality into account.
Right now, you can't really use it to compare different things, because it gives results that are simply not possible even if you play absolutely perfectly. Even just getting that 8th worker 5 seconds sooner than you should can make a huge difference later in the build.
Any plans to make the timings something that matches reality rather than "theoretical optimal"?
Side note : Pretty sure you're using values that are too big for worker mining rates. You're using .7, and that's pretty close to max for close patches. Average is closer to .66.
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Scratch that last note. I just looked back at my timings, and .7 is just about perfect, and I was mis-remembering. (.66 is the mining rate for far patches, but the income from close patches is enough better that it brings the average up to right about .7)
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does this force drone production?
for example:
9 Overlord
14 Hatchery & Scout
14 Spawning Pool
16 Overlord
18 Queen > Spawn Larvae
20 Extractor > transfer 3
yet my readout gives me a 19 queen and 21 extractor. it seems to not let me pool minerals (makes an extra drone while queen waits for spawnling pool to finish)
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Er...
Any way to do extractor tricks as zerg in the calculator?
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also:
when doing a fast expand build (14p/15h) i want to make it so that as soon as the expansion hatch is complete, it produces a queen (given mineral constraintss)
logically it would make sense that
15 Hatchery > Queen
would be the command for that, however it seems the supply constraint is checking the CURRENT supply (at 15) instead when the hatchery is finished
and i also occasionally get "15 Overlord is no longer solvable. Required supply count was exceeded."
even though overlords require no supply
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On October 21 2010 08:55 ylmson wrote:
IMO all the little timing problem can be resolved by allowing an @time build command. (which I mentioned in a previous post)
I'm not sure about the @time trigger, except for a few cases. In general, I think that if you hardcode times in your build order, it makes it harder to change the build order later. If you want to pump out one more marine before some @time trigger, you'll have to go back and fiddle with the time until it pans out right again.
Here is what I'm leaning towards when it comes to startup delay, travel time, and proxying:
Startup delay. I think I'll add a command like:
-3 seconds mining
In a build order this would look like:
-3 seconds mining
9 Pylon
12 Gateway
...
Travel time. It's very hard to calculate the timing when enough minerals would be available for a Barracks, if the timing depends when you send the SCV, and vice versa. Circular dependency and all. I've not come up with a cheap calculation for that. I'm thinking an easy (and doable) way to notate it would be:
10 Barracks (send @120 mineral)
which translates into:
At 120 minerals, send the SCV, the build the Barracks right when you hit 150 minerals. This is much more in line with how you'll execute it anyway; you look at the resources.
Proxying. I'll add an option to let your scout construct a building, like:
10 Scout
13 Gateway (proxy)
Extractor trick is also on the todo-list.
Skrag, I'm fairly sure about the resource mining rate. I've tried and tested the calculations and I come up with numbers fairly close to the theory. The FAQ on my page details the calculations.
Bitters, please post your build order, so I can see what's up. 15 Hatchery > Queen is really the command you're looking for, and it should work as advertised. The error message you get on the 15 Overlord isn't about the supply cost of the Overlord, but about the supply trigger (the "15" part). Apparently your build already has more than 15 supply when it comes to building the Overlord.
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On October 22 2010 07:30 Haploid wrote:
I think that if you hardcode times in your build order, it makes it harder to change the build order later.
Good point, and I like your solution. 
On a side note, right now it seemed the calculator wouldn't transform warpgate back to gateway before the cooldown is over, while it is possible in game to do so. So this may need to be fixed for correctness. Also as I just checked, the remaining cooldown would actually be remembered and restored when you transform it back to warpgate at any later time. So you're right, can't do the gate-flipping trick anymore. :S
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hey again, the build order was like
9 Overlord
15 Hatchery>Queen
14 Spawning Pool
15 Overlord
18 Queen
20 Zergling
but the page isn't loading so i can't double check, will update post when i can
ya confirmed... using that hatchery>queen command has the code check current constraints instead of constraints after the hatch finishes
in the above example is says queen requires spawning pool, which would be complete by time hatch is done.
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15 Hatch 14 Pool gets a Pool quicker than 14 Hatch 14 Pool, interesting
Another interesting quirk:
9 Overlord
15 Hatchery
15 Spawning Pool
14 Extractor > +3
17 Overlord
17 Zergling
18 Queen
20 Zergling[2]
@100 gas Metabolic Boost
25 Overlord
@100 gas Lair
Gives:+ Show Spoiler +0 0:00 0:17 6 / 10 Drone 0 0
1 0:11 0:28 7 / 10 Drone 0 0
2 0:22 0:39 8 / 10 Drone 0 0
3 0:41 1:06 9 / 10 Overlord 0 0
4 0:49 1:06 9 / 10 Drone 0 0
5 1:06 1:23 10 / 18 Drone 58 0
6 1:06 1:23 11 / 18 Drone 8 0
7 1:12 1:29 12 / 18 Drone 0 0
8 1:19 1:36 13 / 18 Drone 0 0
9 1:26 1:43 14 / 18 Drone 0 0
10 1:56 3:36 15 / 18 Hatchery 0 0
11 2:01 2:18 14 / 18 Drone 0 0
12 2:21 3:26 15 / 18 Spawning Pool 0 0
13 2:24 2:54 14 / 18 Extractor 0 0
14 2:30 2:47 13 / 18 Drone 0 0
15 2:35 2:52 14 / 18 Drone 0 0
16 2:41 2:58 15 / 18 Drone 0 0
17 2:46 3:03 16 / 18 Drone 0 0
18 2:54 2:54 17 / 18 Transfer 3 workers to gas 80 0
19 2:56 3:21 17 / 18 Overlord 0 5
20 3:26 3:50 17 / 26 Zergling 239 61
21 3:26 4:16 18 / 26 Queen 89 61
22 3:26 3:50 20 / 26 Zergling 39 61
23 3:28 3:52 21 / 26 Zergling 0 63
24 3:43 4:00 22 / 28 Drone 100 92
25 3:47 5:37 23 / 28 Metabolic Boost 39 0
26 3:48 4:05 23 / 28 Drone 0 2
27 3:53 4:10 24 / 28 Drone 0 12
28 4:03 4:28 25 / 28 Overlord 0 31
29 4:40 6:00 25 / 36 Lair 281 0 38
While
9 Overlord
15 Hatchery
15 Spawning Pool
14 Extractor > +3
17 Overlord
17 Zergling
18 Queen
20 Zergling[2]
23 Metabolic Boost
25 Overlord
31 Lair
Gives:+ Show Spoiler +0 0:00 0:17 6 / 10 Drone 0 0
1 0:11 0:28 7 / 10 Drone 0 0
2 0:22 0:39 8 / 10 Drone 0 0
3 0:41 1:06 9 / 10 Overlord 0 0
4 0:49 1:06 9 / 10 Drone 0 0
5 1:06 1:23 10 / 18 Drone 58 0
6 1:06 1:23 11 / 18 Drone 8 0
7 1:12 1:29 12 / 18 Drone 0 0
8 1:19 1:36 13 / 18 Drone 0 0
9 1:26 1:43 14 / 18 Drone 0 0
10 1:56 3:36 15 / 18 Hatchery 0 0
11 2:01 2:18 14 / 18 Drone 0 0
12 2:21 3:26 15 / 18 Spawning Pool 0 0
13 2:24 2:54 14 / 18 Extractor 0 0
14 2:30 2:47 13 / 18 Drone 0 0
15 2:35 2:52 14 / 18 Drone 0 0
16 2:41 2:58 15 / 18 Drone 0 0
17 2:46 3:03 16 / 18 Drone 0 0
18 2:54 2:54 17 / 18 Transfer 3 workers to gas 80 0
19 2:56 3:21 17 / 18 Overlord 0 5
20 3:26 3:50 17 / 26 Zergling 239 61
21 3:26 4:16 18 / 26 Queen 89 61
22 3:26 3:50 20 / 26 Zergling 39 61
23 3:28 3:52 21 / 26 Zergling 0 63
24 3:33 3:50 22 / 26 Drone 0 73
25 3:47 5:37 23 / 28 Metabolic Boost 39 0
26 3:48 4:05 23 / 28 Drone 0 2
27 3:53 4:10 24 / 28 Drone 0 11
28 4:02 4:27 25 / 28 Overlord 0 29
29 4:07 4:24 25 / 28 Drone 0 38
30 4:11 4:28 26 / 28 Drone 0 46
31 4:16 4:33 27 / 28 Drone 0 54
32 4:27 4:44 28 / 36 Drone 93 76 31
33 4:27 4:44 29 / 36 Drone 43 76 31
34 4:28 4:45 30 / 36 Drone 0 78 31
35 4:40 6:00 31 / 36 Lair 13 0 38
So one build gets 2 more drones out and starts the Lair at the same time. It seems that the @ commands don't continue to drone up? Is there any way to make Spawn Larvae automatically refresh? You should at the ability to do things at a specific time. For example, I want to drop a Spire immediately after my Lair finishes, or @6:00. Awesome app (your unit production one is cool too)
More:+ Show Spoiler +9 Overlord
15 Hatchery
15 Spawning Pool
14 Extractor > +3
17 Overlord
17 Zergling
18 Queen > Spawn Larvae
20 Zergling[2]
23 Metabolic Boost
25 Overlord
31 Lair
31 Extractor > +3
31 Extractor > +3
6:00 Checkpoint
More:+ Show Spoiler +9 Overlord
15 Hatchery
15 Spawning Pool
14 Extractor > +3
17 Overlord
17 Zergling
18 Queen > Spawn Larvae
20 Zergling[2]
23 Metabolic Boost
25 Overlord
31 Lair
31 Extractor > +3
30 Extractor > +3
29 Extractor > +3
31 Spawn Larvae
32 Overlord
33 Queen
40 Spire
41 Overlord
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Cool! this is actually really helpful, keep it up.
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Russian Federation4282 Posts
Epic work! Can you add column for zergs, how many larvae we have for a moment?
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On October 22 2010 10:55 Bitters wrote:
9 Overlord
15 Hatchery>Queen
14 Spawning Pool
15 Overlord
18 Queen
20 Zergling
...
ya confirmed... using that hatchery>queen command has the code check current constraints instead of constraints after the hatch finishes
in the above example is says queen requires spawning pool, which would be complete by time hatch is done.
Yes, it picks up the jobs in the order in which they appear in the build. Even when you write 15 Hatchery>Queen, 14 Spawning Pool, it'll see the Queen first and throw an error. I've tried to make it so that "floating" jobs (jobs which don't depend on a specific supply count) such as ">Queen" can be moved to a later time to account for prerequisites. But it's not simple. It's actually an NP-complete problem, akin to the Travelling Salesman problem, which means that the computation becomes very expensive when a build has lots of floating jobs. It also means that the only way to figure out the correct order of floating jobs (and to figure out if there even exists such an order) is to just brute force try every possible order.
You'll have to write:
15 Hatchery
14 Spawning Pool > Queen
Or possibly delay the Queen even further until after the Overlord, whatever gets the smoothest timing.
On October 22 2010 14:01 kidcrash89 wrote:
6:00 Checkpoint gives an error due to check point
... leaves me with 25 energy @39 supply yet when I add "39 Spawn Larvae" I'm not allowed to cast it since "all hatcheries are currently spawning larva". Clearly, the larva has already popped after I make my drone. It doesn't seem to work on 40 either.
Fixed both. It now delays the Spawn Larvae until after a hatchery is available, instead of throwing an error. Thanks!
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right but under your example of
15 Hatchery
14 Pool > Queen
That doesn't time the second queen starting off the expansion's finish (since the build I posted already was building a queen after the SP was done
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EPT
