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[G] Build order timing calculator - Page 6

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Haploid
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands89 Posts
October 24 2010 16:10 GMT
#101
Well, the larva count looks about right. It's a 42 second gap, and that's long enough for your hatcheries to fill up again.

I'll see what I can do about that delay. In this situation, it doesn't make sense for the calculator to wait until the Queen has finished, since the Spawn Larvae job in no way interferes with the next scheduled job. I can fix this.

In the meantime, you could write:
20 Queen
24 Spawn Larvae
26 Overlord
That'll allow drone production to continue.

Wow, the other two races were so much simpler.
Thank you Carl, you saved me from having to kill them all myself.
icezar
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany240 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-24 21:19:45
October 24 2010 21:16 GMT
#102
Can we do extractor trick in this?

Sorry for all the noob questions, i know i am too lazy to carefully read your site but also your thread is too short :-D

Awesome site you have there!!!

It will be nice to see it integrate with http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=160231 also.

This is what i do now try to find flows in computed BOs :-D
Logo2010
Profile Joined October 2010
509 Posts
October 25 2010 02:58 GMT
#103
Great site. Very useful and thank you for making it available.

One question, how to you tell it to for example make rax
eg. 12 Barracks > Marine
then continuously make marines until whatever.
Pitsot
Profile Joined October 2010
Russian Federation20 Posts
October 25 2010 07:48 GMT
#104
Thanks a lot! I've managed to create a good build using your calculator and I'm having success with it.
icezar
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany240 Posts
October 25 2010 07:59 GMT
#105
sorry, another bug,
For:
10 Spawning Pool (send @100 minerals)
10 Extractor
10 Overlord
10 Roach Warren
10 put 3 on gas
11 Overlord
@58 gas take 1 off gas
11 Roach [7]

9 2:10 3:05 10 / 18 3 Roach Warren 44 0
- not build soon enough there are 44 min left
11 2:11 2:28 9 / 18 2 Drone -2 2
-can i build on credit? :-)
Haploid
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands89 Posts
October 25 2010 09:59 GMT
#106
On October 25 2010 06:16 icezar wrote:
Can we do extractor trick in this?

It will be nice to see it integrate with http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=160231 also.

Extractor trick is on the top of my todo-list, but I'm very busy with work today, so expect it probably tonight (European night).

I absolutely love that build optimizer; it's so much fun to watch it do its magic.
On October 25 2010 11:58 Logo2010 wrote:
One question, how to you tell it to for example make rax
eg. 12 Barracks > Marine
then continuously make marines until whatever.

It's not possible in the current syntax yet, but you can do something like that by throwing some marines around in your build order. Right now, it only uses SCV's to fill up any supply gaps in your build order, but maybe I could make it so that it could choose intelligently between building a Marine or an SCV, based on some priority. I'll think about it.
On October 25 2010 16:59 icezar wrote:
9 2:10 3:05 10 / 18 3 Roach Warren 44 0
- not build soon enough there are 44 min left
11 2:11 2:28 9 / 18 2 Drone -2 2
-can i build on credit? :-)

The Roach Warren is delayed because it is waiting for the Spawning Pool to finish, so that's correct. The negative minerals are due to rounding errors in the timing when it compiles the final report. It doesn't actually impact the timing, just the way it's reported. I will fix that.
Thank you Carl, you saved me from having to kill them all myself.
RickOrShay
Profile Joined August 2010
New Zealand132 Posts
October 25 2010 10:22 GMT
#107
pretty awesome, would use it once you get terran going.
Bitters
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada303 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-25 15:21:04
October 25 2010 15:16 GMT
#108
9 Overlord
14 Hatchery > Queen > Spawn Larvae
14 Spawning Pool > Queen > Spawn Larvae
16 Overlord

It's saying it is no longer solvable since it exceeds the supply count (although changing to 15 Overlord works, yet my food is never over 17 then). Doesn't make sense that I can make an overlord at 15 only instead of 16.

Objective of above is to go 14h/14p, getting a queen at main when pool finishes and a queen at second hatch when its complete, having each queen spawn larvae immediately when they are finished.

Edit: Yea, it seems there are lots of issues with supply constraints still. And orders are getting messed up.
9 Overlord
15 Hatchery > Queen > Spawn Larvae
14 Spawning Pool > Queen > Spawn Larvae
15 Overlord
18 Extractor > +3

Yet what comes out is a 14 gas, it stops drone production waiting for pools to finish before making queens (instead of droning to 15 for overlord and making queens when ready)
icezar
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany240 Posts
October 25 2010 17:46 GMT
#109
Can you please color with red the resource causing the delay?

0 0:00 0:17 6 / 10 2 Drone 0 0
1 0:11 0:28 7 / 10 1 Drone 0 0
Skrag
Profile Joined May 2010
United States643 Posts
October 26 2010 01:27 GMT
#110
On October 23 2010 20:02 Haploid wrote:
I've added some options to increase realism:

Worker can be sent early when building a structure, e.g. 12 Gateway (send @120 minerals)
Startup delay for mineral mining, e.g. #Startup mining delay = 3 seconds
Startup delay for worker production, e.g. #Startup build delay = 3 seconds

So a more realistic 10/10-gate would be something like:

#Startup mining delay = 2 seconds
#Startup build delay = 1 seconds
10 Pylon (send @80 minerals) > Gateway (send @120 minerals) [2]
12 Zealot* [3]
18 Pylon (send @80 minerals)
Which only delays the third Zealot by about 2 seconds, not too bad.

Note that if you switch the delays, you'll get that Zealot out one second sooner. Which would seem to indicate that it's better to send your workers first, then produce a new worker.


If you have a full second's worth of delay between building and sending, then yes, that would be true.

But if you're that slow with the very first two actions you have to do in every game, you're spending thought trying to optimize when the fact of the matter is that you should just click faster.
"Just go *@#$ing kill him!" -- Day[9] "Thanks for being a jackass though! Enjoy your time on the forums!" - Artosis
DFarce
Profile Joined July 2010
55 Posts
October 26 2010 14:11 GMT
#111
Fantastic work. It is fun to see what sort of wacky builds you can pull off with this. A few gripes though.

As said above, the negative minerals is a little odd. As well, whoever suggested that the limiting factor be highlighted in red is a genius, thats a great idea.

My only last thing is that the system is a little annoying to use with full word syntax, I find I am constantly going back to the examples to see what I am missing. I think you should make a shorthand syntax that is recognized as well to make constructing builds easier.

Thanks for the great tool!
Phrencys
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada270 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-26 14:43:28
October 26 2010 14:43 GMT
#112
I too think there's a problem with the spawn larva ability getting ignored.

Here are two examples of masslings BO that I sometimes use in teamgames. One is queen first, other one is 6lings first (vs Z+X, these lings will spawn at the 2:30 mark just in time to stop a 6pool)

10 Pool (Queen first)
---------------------
10 Spawning Pool
10 Overlord
10 Overlord
10 Queen > Spawn Larvae
12 Zergling [14]

10 Pool (3Zerglings first)
--------------------------
10 Spawning Pool
10 Overlord
10 Overlord
10 Zergling [3]
13 Queen > Spawn Larvae
15 Zergling [11]

While the Spawn Larvae does show up, adding or removing "> Spawn Larvae" doesn't change the timings whatsoever. I got 3 larvaes available, but the timer still waits as if there were only one.
icezar
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany240 Posts
October 26 2010 16:54 GMT
#113
Yes, there is a problem with queues. Until it is solved you can do it like:

10 Spawning Pool
10 Overlord
10 Overlord
10 Queen
12 Zergling [6]
18 Spawn Larvae
18 Zergling [8]
Phrencys
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada270 Posts
October 26 2010 17:42 GMT
#114
It's weird because the problem doesn't seem to be the queue itself; the larvae DO spawn, but are just not used.

But since spawning manually does work... guess that'll do for now. Thanks.
RationalGaze
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom121 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-27 11:46:16
October 27 2010 11:44 GMT
#115
This is pretty cool, thanks for making this. I was just wondering if it's possible for you to make a similar tool which lets you just input your build order without specifying the supply count? So basically it is set to constantly produce probes and we can just input our build order and it will tell us at what time it would be possible to build that unit/structure.

Assuming a constant rate of worker production, we wouldn't need to specify when to build a depot/overlord/pylon since it could calculate for us that for example that at 10 supply, a Terran must build a supply depot so he doesn't get blocked since it takes 30secs to build one.

So in the builder I would just put:
Barracks
Refinery
Marine

...and the builder would say OK, well by the time you want to build the barracks, you will have had time to build 12 SCVs, so you will need to have built a depot at 10, so it will adjust the build order to:
Supply Depot (time or supply at which this is buildable)
Barracks (time or supply at which this is buildable)
Refinery (time or supply at which this is buildable)
Marine (time or supply at which this is buildable)

Then I could add a Factory to the build and it would just put the earliest time I could do that based on the current resource collection rate. This is probably a lot more complicated than I think...


но ни шагу назад
tidesonar02
Profile Joined October 2010
2 Posts
October 28 2010 08:34 GMT
#116
Awesome util

Sadly I have issues with almost all my zerg sample builds:

9 Overlord
11 Scout
14 Spawning Pool
16 Extractor > +3
15 Queen
17 Overlord

5 0:49 1:06 9 / 10 1 Drone -6 0
6 1:06 1:23 10 / 18 1 Drone 40 0
7 1:06 1:23 11 / 18 0 Drone -10 0
8 1:15 1:32 12 / 18 0 Drone -5 0
9 1:30 1:47 13 / 18 0 Drone 49 0
10 1:36 2:41 14 / 18 0 Spawning Pool -100 0
11 1:45 2:02 13 / 18 0 Drone -83 0

Obviously minerals shouldn't be negative

----

10 Spawning Pool > Zergling
9 Overlord
11 Drone
16 Extractor

8 2:08 2:32 11 / 18 2 Zergling 169 0
9 2:15 2:32 12 / 18 2 Drone 169 0
10 2:15 2:45 13 / 18 2 Extractor 150 0
11 2:30 2:47 12 / 18 2 Drone 200 0
12 2:45 3:02 13 / 18 2 Drone 264 0
13 3:00 3:17 14 / 18 2 Drone 339 0

More drones should be spawned

----

Nevertheless your work is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
pyjamads
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark33 Posts
October 28 2010 08:54 GMT
#117
On October 28 2010 17:34 tidesonar02 wrote:
Awesome util

Sadly I have issues with almost all my zerg sample builds:
+ Show Spoiler +

9 Overlord
11 Scout
14 Spawning Pool
16 Extractor > +3
15 Queen
17 Overlord

5 0:49 1:06 9 / 10 1 Drone -6 0
6 1:06 1:23 10 / 18 1 Drone 40 0
7 1:06 1:23 11 / 18 0 Drone -10 0
8 1:15 1:32 12 / 18 0 Drone -5 0
9 1:30 1:47 13 / 18 0 Drone 49 0
10 1:36 2:41 14 / 18 0 Spawning Pool -100 0
11 1:45 2:02 13 / 18 0 Drone -83 0

Obviously minerals shouldn't be negative

----

10 Spawning Pool > Zergling
9 Overlord
11 Drone
16 Extractor

8 2:08 2:32 11 / 18 2 Zergling 169 0
9 2:15 2:32 12 / 18 2 Drone 169 0
10 2:15 2:45 13 / 18 2 Extractor 150 0
11 2:30 2:47 12 / 18 2 Drone 200 0
12 2:45 3:02 13 / 18 2 Drone 264 0
13 3:00 3:17 14 / 18 2 Drone 339 0

More drones should be spawned

----

Nevertheless your work is greatly appreciated. Thanks.


The reason in the last example is that you are not using Strict Mode, which uses your exact specification. But in "normal" mode, the Tool actually switches your stuff around, to optimize when you have enough minirals/gas to build someting higher up in your BO. This sometimes will give you an idea off how to optimize your build even more, but most of the time, it will actually slow it down, as you are saving up mins/gas for a reason.
tidesonar02
Profile Joined October 2010
2 Posts
October 28 2010 09:57 GMT
#118
On October 28 2010 17:54 pyjamads wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2010 17:34 tidesonar02 wrote:

10 Spawning Pool > Zergling
9 Overlord
11 Drone
16 Extractor

8 2:08 2:32 11 / 18 2 Zergling 169 0
9 2:15 2:32 12 / 18 2 Drone 169 0
10 2:15 2:45 13 / 18 2 Extractor 150 0
11 2:30 2:47 12 / 18 2 Drone 200 0
12 2:45 3:02 13 / 18 2 Drone 264 0
13 3:00 3:17 14 / 18 2 Drone 339 0

More drones should be spawned

----

Nevertheless your work is greatly appreciated. Thanks.


The reason in the last example is that you are not using Strict Mode, which uses your exact specification. But in "normal" mode, the Tool actually switches your stuff around, to optimize when you have enough minirals/gas to build someting higher up in your BO. This sometimes will give you an idea off how to optimize your build even more, but most of the time, it will actually slow it down, as you are saving up mins/gas for a reason.


Actually build order rearranging isn't bothering me at all. Problem is, there are minerals and larvaes available but Drones are not spawned. There should be lots of droning going on
Haploid
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands89 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-28 14:16:00
October 28 2010 13:57 GMT
#119
On October 26 2010 00:16 Bitters wrote:
Yet what comes out is a 14 gas, it stops drone production waiting for pools to finish before making queens (instead of droning to 15 for overlord and making queens when ready)

This one is a little tricky to explain, but bear with me. The calculator tries to pick up the jobs in the order in which they appear. In this case, that means it'll want to schedule the Queens before it starts to schedule the Overlord. And obviously, when both Queens are already scheduled, it can no longer meet the 15 supply count trigger for the Overlord.

This mechanism works great for jobs like scouting and probe transfers, which is what I intended the ">" operator to be used for. And it mostly works well for other stuff, but not always as you'd intend. I'll see what I can do to make the > operator more natural for building units, or if I can't think of a good way to schedule those jobs, I'll just disallow it and restrict the > operator to probe transfer jobs.


On October 26 2010 02:46 icezar wrote:
Can you please color with red the resource causing the delay?

It's not always a resource causing the delay, but for as far as it is, as a rule of thumb it's usually the resource that is 0. I'll see what I can do.

On October 26 2010 23:43 Phrencys wrote:
I too think there's a problem with the spawn larva ability getting ignored.

While the Spawn Larvae does show up, adding or removing "> Spawn Larvae" doesn't change the timings whatsoever. I got 3 larvaes available, but the timer still waits as if there were only one.

Ok, I fixed that. Good examples.

On October 27 2010 20:44 RationalGaze wrote:
This is pretty cool, thanks for making this. I was just wondering if it's possible for you to make a similar tool which lets you just input your build order without specifying the supply count? So basically it is set to constantly produce probes and we can just input our build order and it will tell us at what time it would be possible to build that unit/structure.

Then I could add a Factory to the build and it would just put the earliest time I could do that based on the current resource collection rate. This is probably a lot more complicated than I think...

It really is. Just one example I can throw at you is: as a Protoss, when you build a constant stream of Probes, and you want to build a Pylon at 9 supply, you'll have to delay probe production for a few seconds. Otherwise, you won't be able to build the Pylon at 10, and you'll have an even longer delay as you wait for the Pylon to finish.

People are going to want their Pylon at 9, so you'll need a way of saying: the Pylon has priority over constant Probe production, but not so much priority that it'll build the Pylon at 6 supply. It's tricky.

On October 28 2010 17:34 tidesonar02 wrote:
10 Spawning Pool > Zergling
9 Overlord
11 Drone
16 Extractor
More drones should be spawned

Good point. I'll figure out what's up with that.
Thank you Carl, you saved me from having to kill them all myself.
Bitters
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada303 Posts
October 28 2010 17:14 GMT
#120
9 Overlord
15 Hatchery
14 Spawning Pool
15 Overlord
17 Queen> Spawn Larvae
19 Queen> Spawn Larvae
21 Overlord
30 Overlord
35 Spawn Larvae &Drone[5] & Overlord > Spawn Larvae
40 Drone [3]

producing hatcheries not spawning larvae error?
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