EPTThings I would like to see:
Another field for transferring to an expansion, where you can manually enter the transfer time.
Example:
15 Command Center > +8 7
transfers 8 workers, 7 second delay before they start generating income.
[G] Build order timing calculator - Page 3
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ltortoise
633 Posts
Things I would like to see: Another field for transferring to an expansion, where you can manually enter the transfer time. Example: 15 Command Center > +8 7 transfers 8 workers, 7 second delay before they start generating income. | ||
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Haploid
Netherlands89 Posts
On October 18 2010 06:05 ylmson wrote: It would be nice if the current maximum supply can be viewed alongside supply count (There is enough space anyways). I often forget to build supply early enough and the calculator keeps building units even when the maximum supply is exceeded. I'll add that in the next build. Quite easy. I purposely did not let the calculator throw an error if you exceed supply limit, because some builds presuppose that some units will die. But I'll change the supply column to say "10/18" or something instead of just "10". On October 18 2010 06:05 ylmson wrote: Would it be possible to fast advance to a future given time and see the resources I would have at that moment, assuming not building anything in the duration? Done. Just write something like: 5:30 checkpoint and it'll add an entry in the results at 5:30, so you can see the status quo. On October 18 2010 06:05 ylmson wrote: Finally, I was trying out strict mode a bit, seems like when strict mode is on, 9 Pylon builds the pylon after the 9th probe comes out, I think it might be more useful if it makes the pylon after the 9th probe starts. It shouldn't, and I don't get this problem. When I write just "9 Pylon", it queues a probe at 0:34 (completed at 0:51) and builds the pylon at 0:42. It really just tries to build the pylon after probe 9 has started, not completed. Thanks for your awesome feedback. This really helps in making the calculator complete. I notice you registered on TL just to comment on this thread.  Hope you're enjoying the rest of the boards.On October 19 2010 04:09 ltortoise wrote: Another field for transferring to an expansion, where you can manually enter the transfer time. Example: 15 Command Center > +8 7 transfers 8 workers, 7 second delay before they start generating income. Got it. It's something that's been on my todo-list since day zero. Just never got around to it. I can do probe transfer time for maynarding; that shouldn't be too hard. Last but not least: Zerg is now implemented, including the Queen's abilities I still need to add a way of doing the Extractor trick (or any other structure trick, I suppose). Also, the results now show the energy surplus of Queens and Nexi. I'll add Orbital Commands later; right now they just auto-MULE. | ||
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tedd
1 Post
However, one thing that's driving me nuts: If I do 9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor > put 3 on gas 15 Overlord 15 Queen It tells me "no hatcheries are producing larvae" ? Why is this? | ||
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Zazaodh
United Kingdom7 Posts
It is currently telling me that my Nexus Busy Percentage is only 73%, where ideally it should be 100% and the rest of the build timings should fit around the constant production of probes. | ||
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randplaty
205 Posts
10 Pylon 10 Gateway & scout 11 Probe* 12 Assimilator > put 3 on gas @50 gas take 3 workers off gas 14 Cybernetics Core 15 Pylon 17 Warpgate**** 18 Gateway 20 Gateway [2] > Transform to Warpgate [4] 22 pylon It gives me this error message : Line 5 : take 3 workers off gas is not a structure or unit. What am I doing wrong? | ||
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Sidus
Canada6 Posts
On October 19 2010 08:24 tedd wrote: This is incredible! However, one thing that's driving me nuts: If I do 9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor > put 3 on gas 15 Overlord 15 Queen It tells me "no hatcheries are producing larvae" ? Why is this? Yes, bizarrely enough it seems that the calculator gives an error if no larvae are available when a queen is scheduled to start. This seems to be specific to the queen, if there is no larva avalable for another unit (I only tested zerglings) it will correctly just delay it This appears to be due to the combination of 2 bugs. 1) the calculator thinks queens use a larva 2) In the special case of a queen, the calculator doesn't wait for a larva to be available, it just gives an error message The calculator also seems to assume that you start with only one larva - production tends to be at 15s intervals because the calculator thinks you're restricted by larvae when actually you're restricted by minerals in the beginning. But, this will be great if the bugs are fixed, thanks Haploid! | ||
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Haploid
Netherlands89 Posts
On October 19 2010 08:24 tedd wrote: It tells me "no hatcheries are producing larvae" ? Why is this? Fixed. It was a problem with the Queen, which I'm sure I'd fixed earlier, but I guess I messed it up again. Queens don't cost larvae.  On October 19 2010 08:39 Zazaodh wrote: Would it be possible to add a 'force constant probe production' checkbox? Kind of tricky. It'd mean the calculator would be allowed to ignore the supply count of jobs in the build order. I'll think about it. On October 19 2010 09:03 randplaty wrote: Line 5 : take 3 workers off gas is not a structure or unit. What am I doing wrong? It's "take 3 off gas", not "take 3 workers off gas". I'll make it so that it ignores the words workers, probes, drones and SCVs in that line, so you can write it like that in the next build. | ||
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Zazaodh
United Kingdom7 Posts
I've noticed some of the commands involving transfering workers to gas are not functioning. For example you say that Transferring workers to a new Assimilator or Nexus can be done by writing: 13 Assimilator > transfer 3 However this gives the error Notice: Undefined variable: dependencies in /home/vhosting/o/vhost0009715/domains/haploid.nl/htdocs/www/sc2/build_order/job.php on line 206 Line 1 : Transfer workers where? Going through your list of gas related commands, the following do not appear to work for me; Assimilator > transfer 3 Assimilator > +3 on gas Assimilator > +3 The only one that is working is Assimilator > put 3 on gas Hope this helps! | ||
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ylmson
United States9 Posts
On October 19 2010 07:41 Haploid wrote: When I write just "9 Pylon", it queues a probe at 0:34 (completed at 0:51) and builds the pylon at 0:42. It really just tries to build the pylon after probe 9 has started, not completed. I was referring to when you have "strict mode" checked. When I checked that, 9 Pylon will build the pylon at 0:51 not 0:42. (10 Pylon will build it at 1:08) But I don't want it to do that, even with strict mode on all I wished is preserving build order. And you were right, I really registered just to comment on your thread. I had the idea about the same kind of tool a while ago and it is really nice to see someone actually make it. I'm sure when it gets matured will see many great strategic developments. So keep up the good work! | ||
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Haploid
Netherlands89 Posts
Fixed. Sorry about that. On October 19 2010 13:21 ylmson wrote: I was referring to when you have "strict mode" checked. When I checked that, 9 Pylon will build the pylon at 0:51 not 0:42. (10 Pylon will build it at 1:08) But I don't want it to do that, even with strict mode on all I wished is preserving build order. Good point. I have no idea why I did that, but it's also fixed now. Strict mode looks at the time when units are started, not when they've completed. | ||
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QwiXXeR
16 Posts
 So adding it to spoilers + Show Spoiler + Zerg build is very messed Eg, soming as simple as 9 overlord 14 hatchery @50 mineral drone @200 mineral Spawning pool Gives 8 1:30 1:47 13 Drone 90 0 9 1:52 3:32 14 Hatchery 0 0 10 3:32 3:49 13 Drone 860 0 11 3:32 4:37 14 Spawning Pool 660 0 So it appears to be waiting for that hatchery to finish before doing other things, and i tried jsut saying like 14 hatch 14 pool 14 gas etc, Same things happens Thanx On another Note, 1) How is Queen's Inject/Tumor used or managed ? 2) "Infestation Pit requires that you build Lair first" When ive quite clearly started the lair, even put other things in eg 50 overlord 50 infestation pit, Where i know from the times the lair is done 3) How to get zerg upgrades working eg "lair > Burrow" gives "Burrow requires that you build Lair first." and "Evolution chamber > Carapace" gives "Line 3 : Carapace is not a structure or unit." | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
Great job. I am using this to test whether or not TvT builds can beat Hellion marine pushes or Banshee rushes. The only issue I am having is with expanding. I would love to see a detailed explanation of its expansion worker transfer algorithm, because I am worried it will give you artificially high income. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
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Haploid
Netherlands89 Posts
On October 19 2010 22:13 QwiXXeR wrote: On another Note, 1) How is Queen's Inject/Tumor used or managed ? 2) "Infestation Pit requires that you build Lair first" When ive quite clearly started the lair, even put other things in eg 50 overlord 50 infestation pit, Where i know from the times the lair is done 3) How to get zerg upgrades working eg "lair > Burrow" gives "Burrow requires that you build Lair first." and "Evolution chamber > Carapace" gives "Line 3 : Carapace is not a structure or unit." 1) It keeps track of the energy for each Queen. Then when you add a Spawn Larvae job to the build order, it'll use whichever Queen has the most energy available. It doesn't keep track of how close the Queens are to your hatcheries, which that may be a big influence on the timing. Also, Spawn Larvae is always targetted at whichever hatchery: - is not already spawning larvae; - has the fewest larvae available; - if equal, whichever has the longest delay until the next larva would be generated. 2) Sorry, fixed that. The calculator was complaining that you don't have the structure "Lair" in your build order; which is logical, because you have the morph "Lair". Different things. The morph "Lair" consumes a hatchery and produces the structure "Lair". I fixed it so that it also looks at which structures are produced by the morphs when determining if you have the prerequisites. 3. Same problem. Also, the carapace upgrade is called "Ground Carapace Level 1". It seems like the calculator should be able to guess that you mean that one, but I haven't programmed it to guess that yet. Thanks for your feedback and spotting the Lair problem. On October 19 2010 23:28 Sleight wrote: The Starport build time is incorrect. Also, when you set up a series of commands using the ">" character the algorithm often artificially delays worker production. Seems like it is just stacking the commands incorrectly, but I can't troubleshoot it without seeing the source. Great job. I am using this to test whether or not TvT builds can beat Hellion marine pushes or Banshee rushes. The only issue I am having is with expanding. I would love to see a detailed explanation of its expansion worker transfer algorithm, because I am worried it will give you artificially high income. Thanks on the Starport build time, I missed that one. You get blinded after typing a few hundred numbers. You'll have to give me an example of the worker production delay. In general, the calculator will attempt to do the jobs in the build order in the order in which they appear. It'll only produce workers when there are no other jobs available. I'll add a table which shows the evolution of your income during the build order. This will illustrate how workers are transferred and what the effect is on your income, and hopefully answer your question. Expect this update something tomorrow. On October 19 2010 23:40 Markwerf wrote: Protoss build order seems to be completely fluent in the calculator. The applet doesn't show a slight gap in production for probes at 9 supply while every protoss player knows this is the case. In practice there is about a 5 sec gap between 9 and 10 supply where the nexus is idle. This and other inaccuracies mean the build order calculator is about 20 secs faster then the real thing for many toss build orders. Yeah, I know that gap intimately. I've actually played a few games at very slow gamespeed and tried to be as quick as I could be to see how real the numbers are. I can't for the life of me get it down to less than 2 seconds. Part of the reason for the gap is that you have a few seconds delay as you send your initial workers off and queue the first probe. Especially at faster game speed, this can easily have a 4 or 5 second (game time) effect on the speed of your build.Another aspect is the fact that your probe has to travel to make that first Pylon. Even a 3 second travel time (+3 seconds back) is good for a loss of another second delay on that 10th probe. And finally, sending your initial probes in a 3/3 split (which is the best I can do) adds a tiny bit of additional travel time while your probes fan out. That's probably another half a second. This calculator does not take travel time or startup delay in its calculation. Beyond that startup delay, I've been able to match the calculated timing fairly well when playing at very low game speed. | ||
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QwiXXeR
16 Posts
Awsome Thanks so much/Runs off to test some more | ||
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ylmson
United States9 Posts
9 Overlord 15 Spawning Pool 15 Overlord 16 Queen 25 Spawn Larvae 32 Overlord 6:00 checkpoint First it takes 3 seconds in the table (from 3:42 to 3:45) to cast spawn larvae, I think there should be no cast time at all, and the whole duration should be changed to 40 seconds to reveal when the larvae will pop out. (i.e. from 3:42 to 4:22) Spawn larvae has no casting delay if the queen is standing next to base. The progress bar starts as soon as you click the base instead of when the queen animation finishes playing. This can be verified by slowing down the game. Second problem is at 4:25 (which is where the program thinks spawn larvae is finished), only 1 new larva got generated while there should have been four. The program makes a drone at 4:25, then 4:40, 4:55... in 15-second intervals. What should have happened is that 4 drones would be made simultaneously at 4:22 (assuming supply allows), then at 4:30 instead of 4:40 another larva will spawn (following regular hatchery larva interval, since the previous hatchery larva was 4:15). I haven't actually tested if spawning larva will reset the timer for regular hatchery larva, but I don't feel it should. Now, another truly strange problem is that, if I put "25 Overlord" after "25 Spawn Larvae", it will try to build the overlord at supply 28 (4:25), using the larva generated by Spawn Larvae. Even an optimization would have tried to build the overlord earlier, not later. Even stranger, If I put "21 Overlord" before "25 Spawn Larvae", it will build the overlord at 24 supply (3:30), and somehow gives me 3 additional larvae before the overlord, at 3:14, 3:18, and 3:22. I have no idea where those larvae come from... | ||
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Haploid
Netherlands89 Posts
On October 20 2010 18:52 ylmson wrote: I believe Spawn Larvae has some problems. Very much so, and I think I fixed all of them now. In the order in which you presented them: - According to Liquipedia, Spawn Larvae has a cooldown of 2.5 seconds. I mistook this for meaning that it takes the Queen 2.5 seconds to execute it, but as you say, it is instantaneous. Regardless, this is rarely if ever an issue, so I changed the calculator to display the 40 second wait time instead of the cooldown time. - The second problem is much more complex, and it has to do with at least three separate bugs which would take a while to explain. Suffice to say it's been fixed. As part of the solution, I've forced the calculator to always treat Spawn Larvae as if the calculator were in strict mode. So when you write: 25 Spawn Larvae, it will not optimize and push the SL job to the earliest time it is available. - The strange Overlord problem you mentioned is an effect of the same confluence of bugs. The additional three larvae you mentioned were the result of the Spawn Larvae job being pushed back in time to the earliest time it could be executed. Since a SL job requires nothing except a Queen with 25 energy, the calculator was able to place it much earlier than the Overlord job. Again, this is fixed by ensuring that the calculator is strict about the time when a SL job is executed. | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
I think the current mineral intake might be a fraction too high or that it starts a few seconds too soon at the beginning of the game. I did the proposed BO without losing almost a second of mining time by grabbing the closest worker right on time and it wasn't even close. As a result, the rest of the BO plays out quite differently seeing as this discrepancy happens by around 16-17 food. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
Using this build order: 9 Overlord 14 Spawning Pool 15 Extractor Gives these results: 0 0:00 0:17 6 Drone 0 0 1 0:11 0:28 7 Drone 0 0 2 0:22 0:39 8 Drone 0 0 3 0:41 1:06 9 Overlord 0 0 4 0:49 1:06 9 Drone 0 0 5 0:57 1:14 10 Drone 0 0 6 1:05 1:22 11 Drone 0 0 7 1:15 1:32 12 Drone 19 0 8 1:30 1:47 13 Drone 90 0 9 1:42 2:47 14 Spawning Pool 0 0 10 1:48 2:05 13 Drone 0 0 11 1:56 2:26 14 Extractor 50 0 12 2:00 2:17 13 Drone 31 0 Problem #1: Drones 11 and 12 (entries 5 and 6 in the list) both start before the overlord finishes. Problem #2: It's building the extractor on 14, not 15, and then building a drone after. The order is backwards. Using the strict checkbox makes the order right, but it shouldn't be necessary in this case. The calculator is simply doing the wrong thing. Also, there is something else a bit wonky right at the beginning. The 8th drone is *never* getting started a full 6 seconds before the 7th one finishes. In actual play, you generally start the 8th just barely before the 7th finishes, even with a perfect split. This is going to throw all other timings off. | ||
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Haploid
Netherlands89 Posts
Skrag, your second problem is covered by the strict mode option. In non-strict mode, the calculator takes some liberties and starts production of stuff as early as possible, which in this case means your Extractor can be built before Drone #15. You have the resources. I'll think about making strict mode the default, and I'll definitely find some better way of advertising what it does (maybe just rename it to "don't allow minor optimizations" or something). And yes, these are the optimal conditions timings, which can never be obtained. You'll always have a 2 or 3 second delay at the very start, at least. I usually spend a full second just figuring out where my mouse cursor is, cause it's hidden on the load screen, and when the game commences, it's usually in some corner of the screen or something. | ||
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