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On October 02 2010 06:37 aliciakeys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 06:06 Vanka wrote:
The opponent has no reason to suspect that you're doing something different nor that the usual scouting blocks aren't in place This is not true. In zvz, first you scout with the drone. Then you scout with a zergling. The zergling scout see the lair going up. Do you really think this is still viable even if it's scouted?
Every game it's been scouted I've won, unless they've got hatch first muta counter. If the drone leaves right before the pool pops like they would do anticipating lings, with a normal 13gas 13pool 16 overlord 16 queen, by the time the first two lings would arrive the lair would be almost done.
On October 02 2010 06:49 Roaming wrote:
This build could work a totally different way i think and be a lot stronger.
Instead of all the spine crawlers, build a roach warren. You'll be stockpiling gas for mutas, so if the attack comes before mutars, just pop roaches and drop a couple spine crawlers. If you scout him making spore crawlers, cancel spire and attack and expand.
I would let him scout you, assume he's going to scout you, and play accordingly. If the mutars get up and going, great. If not, be prepared to defend/counter with roaches.
This defeats the purpose of the build. 1) going warren would delay the mutas, 2) the point of the build is to get an incredibly early lair with a healthy economy. That means dedicating every single one of your larvae to drones, or an overlord. Building units would mean that it would be an all-in and make it harder to expand as a follow-up.
On October 02 2010 07:07 Zvendetta wrote:
As a zerg, why can't we focus on being able to support mutas with long term economy?
Sure, you can one base muta rush and be superbly effective with it, like what the OP has thoroughly detailed, but any competent zerg player I think would be very suspicious if 4 drones get plopped into spines on just the one base. Sure, the enemy may not be able to get hydras right away which already are really slow, but if the non rusher sees the turtle they can immediately drop an expo/evo and feel safe about it.
Habe you also ever considered zerg teching into infester?
Hydras+ FG= INSTANT gg. the infester would be probably be as gas intensive as going mutas, probably a lil less one the mutas start to mass.
Yes they can get spores up, and it doesn't matter at all. You don't have to do damage with the mutas--watch the replay, I basically didn't do anything with the mutas the entire game except remind him that I have mutas.
I did a section on hydra infestor in the retardedly long OP, and in the replay the opponent goes early infestor to counter.
But for crying out loud, I said specifically that getting mutas won't win you the game. It will NEVER EVER win you the game at diamond. It's the follow-up that wins you the game, because you are given map control. It's about getting 4 mutas and making them spore up like crazy and then running your larger zergling force. It's about getting 4 mutas and make them go mass hydra, and then surprising them with a gazillion banelings when they crawl to your side of the map. If they go a composition against which massing mutas would not be optimal, then you have plenty of economy to do ANY tech switch you want and they can't scout it because you have a handful of mutas.
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Infestors will rape this build.
I've tried going muta/ling many a ZvZ, but people are getting very good at infestor control now and both of these units are very weak to infestors. Good placed fungal growths + roach/hydra will own this. Especially if the opponent grabs an expansion, he can just spore up until he can get infestors out. Players with mutas are inclined to stack them and attack, and this is smart because thats one way to reduce damage and do more damage, but what people don't realise is that it makes them very susceptible to fungal growth. I'm doubtful of the results of this build because I have used it many times and failed. But what do I know, I'm only a low diamond zerg  (1400)
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lol if i see mass of spines i go mass infestor to , and throw free units at u :D
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I would actually probably go mass queen to defend then just keep pummeling your front with banelings/lings. Not saying this isn't a good build. But I think we've all seen a lot of "turtle into mutalisk" strategies.
There's nothing really about a hard queen counter to this. Queens are better IMO because they don't die to banelings which are already really common in ZvZ, and they're much cheaper for their effectiveness.
Though I don't argue with what works. If it works, sweet!
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On October 02 2010 07:33 GenesisX wrote:Infestors will rape this build. I've tried going muta/ling many a ZvZ, but people are getting very good at infestor control now and both of these units are very weak to infestors. Good placed fungal growths + roach/hydra will own this. Especially if the opponent grabs an expansion, he can just spore up until he can get infestors out. Players with mutas are inclined to stack them and attack, and this is smart because thats one way to reduce damage and do more damage, but what people don't realise is that it makes them very susceptible to fungal growth. I'm doubtful of the results of this build because I have used it many times and failed. But what do I know, I'm only a low diamond zerg (1400)
Then throw down an infestation pit instead and pump lings? I've described the build as a muta rush because I've used it as a muta rush, but what is really having at least 18 drones and a lair 10 game seconds before your opponent's first spawn larvae would spawn.
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Just watched the replay and it confirmed my suspicion about this build. It relies entirely on your opponent over reacting.
In the attached replay, the opponent is really just at a loss as to what to do. He sees the spire and decides to:
- Stop drone production.
- Build infestation pit + infestors.
- Build Evo chamber + 3 crawlers.
- Build 2 extra queens.
- Build a Hydra den + hydras.
When he scouted your base with his lings, he had the presence of mind to go see and attack your spire. This also told him that it was only protected by one crawler. All he had to do was send 10 lings in and you were down a spire while he was free to start his. Or, he could have rolled some banelings in. Or he could have mass produced some units and rolled over you. Even if the mutas do get out, 3 mutas aren't going to stop the horde of lings in your base.
I don't mean to be a negative nancy. But we develop and use builds because they work well and consistently. This build would never work twice against the same opponent and I am willing to bet that by 1K+ diamond, every zerg opponent will treat you to a nice 40 ling present before your mutas are ready.
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On October 02 2010 07:37 DoubleReed wrote:
I would actually probably go mass queen to defend then just keep pummeling your front with banelings/lings. Not saying this isn't a good build. But I think we've all seen a lot of "turtle into mutalisk" strategies.
There's nothing really about a hard queen counter to this. Queens are better IMO because they don't die to banelings which are already really common in ZvZ, and they're much cheaper for their effectiveness.
Though I don't argue with what works. If it works, sweet!
The first game I tried doing this, the opponent did this. My baneling switch killed all his queens and all his drones, and when my mutas finished off the lings he ran into my base, he had nothing left.
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If you want my honest opinion...
i would kill you with 5 roaches.
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I love this.
I am going to try it out and see how this build feels. Just out of curiosity how does your build stand to up to the zerg player scouting it and responding with spores? Also do you think it would be effective to delay the lair so you could get 1 queen out quick to lay a tumor and start marching towards the ramp to block it then when your spines come on line they can overlook the ramp?
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I'm not sure if I'm sold this build, but I do like the idea. Yes, hydras/infestors/queens are good counters to muta, we all know that. The point of this build is to get your mutas out absurdly fast, way before your opponent expects it. I'm not sure if spine crawlers are the most ideal defense, but they are certainly the best bang for your already limited supply of larvae.
I can see this having a problem with mass roaches, though. I've found that getting a quick 10 roaches with my first 2 injects are great counters to fast tech and expand builds. If you pooped creep at your ramp and walled it off with the crawlers, you might be able to hold. Otherwise, I imagine that you could simply run your roaches around the static D and hit from behind. Have you encountered this response?
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This build is easy to scout. Any decent diamond player would know the correct response.
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I've never tried to go for mutas that fast, i'll have to try it out, Thanks for the post. 100% agree with a fast expand to counter - I've played against a similar build a few times this week, though they weren't pushing mutas quite that fast and exapnd->hydra/infestor has worked well. It seems most players have been scouting earlier/more often in ZvZ of late.
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On October 02 2010 07:42 Vexx wrote:
I don't mean to be a negative nancy. But we develop and use builds because they work well and consistently. This build would never work twice against the same opponent and I am willing to bet that by 1K+ diamond, every zerg opponent will treat you to a nice 40 ling present before your mutas are ready.
Only reached 800 diamond right now, but here's a replay where I beat a 1100 diamond? Though he played poorly, I made some huge mistakes too, getting my drones stuck, letting him expo, and wasting mutas and lings.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/1744/Vanka_vs_SarkFall
On October 02 2010 12:48 Cryosin wrote:
If you want my honest opinion...
i would kill you with 5 roaches.
I only faced roaches once, and I forgot to save the replay, but do 5 roaches actually kill 4 spine crawlers straight up? Spines are pretty buff. It's not like you can't pull drones either.
Regardless, first I should add that this works much better on maps with long rush distances, for obvious reasons. The reason I feel roaches aren't a good counter is because they are so slow off creep and then though they do kill spines, they do so very slowly. In the game that I didn't save (on blistering sands), by the time he finished killing two out of four spine crawlers, and my mutas popped.
On October 02 2010 15:58 Mindspider wrote:
I can see this having a problem with mass roaches, though. I've found that getting a quick 10 roaches with my first 2 injects are great counters to fast tech and expand builds. If you pooped creep at your ramp and walled it off with the crawlers, you might be able to hold. Otherwise, I imagine that you could simply run your roaches around the static D and hit from behind. Have you encountered this response?
I haven't personally met this response, but roaches are very slow to move across the map. You would be able to kill the spines, most likely, but if you're going to wait for 2 larvae injections, mutas should be out, and then it's just matter of keeping my drones alive until the mutas finally kill them off, expanding, and the running that advantage to the end.
On October 02 2010 15:57 terranghost wrote:
I love this.
I am going to try it out and see how this build feels. Just out of curiosity how does your build stand to up to the zerg player scouting it and responding with spores? Also do you think it would be effective to delay the lair so you could get 1 queen out quick to lay a tumor and start marching towards the ramp to block it then when your spines come on line they can overlook the ramp?
At diamond, they're always going to scout it coming, and there's always going to spores (unless they go mass queen I guess?). The goal is to expand as soon as you can't make mutas due to gas (I think this is at at most five mutas?), and deny their expansion as much as possible. If they go mutas, keep massing mutas and get upgrades asap, and unless their expansion is much much earlier than yours you should win. If they go hydra, immediately throw down a baneling nest, make a ton of banelings and when they push you, boom they have no army, you didn't lose any mutas, you win.
You can make a queen first, but that defeats the purpose of the build which is having complete map control very soon. You can position an overlord over your ramp if you want to poop creep as soon as you hit lair, but the biggest danger is banelings, and clumping your spines together is just asking to get hurt.
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Very weak build if opponent is agressive.
I would just make roaches and push and you will at least have huge looses (most of time gg). Even if you mutas pop when I am with roaches in your bases it does not matter cause mutas do like no dmg to roaches..
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EPT
