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First off, the original idea for the build is not mine, I got it from a comment on a thread a while ago that said at mid-high diamond zvz, one strat other than baneling speedling that was being used is simply throwing down 4 spines and teching straight to mutas.
Second of all, the level at which I've tried this is relatively low, so when I say that I win the vast majority of my zvzs, that should be viewed in context. I'm about a 700 level diamond now, and I've doing this since I was at around 400 points. Since that really doesn't mean anything to me, I will say that in bw ZvZ was by far my best match up, and I was a solid D+ in that game, peaking literally 50 points on Iccup from C-.
Part of the reason I'm starting this is because I do play at a low level, so my build isn't as refined to be as it could be, and second of all to see if it is viable higher up so whether I should continue doing this or going back to practice my speedling-baneling fundamentals.
This is going to be a pretty long read, so dividing the post up into sections:
a) The Build
b) Why this Build Worlds
c) Countering Counters
d) Issues with the Build
The Build
9 overlord
If feeling lucky, 14 gas/14 pool; if not 13 gas/13pool
Drone to 17
@100% pool, Lair
@100% pool,1-2 spine crawlers
At this point, you need to determine how many spines (3 or 4 or more?) you want to make, and droning in between. As you are using drones, you can delay your overlord for a significant amount of time, hovering at 18 food. You need to build your second extractor during this period as well, or you won't get the 200 gas you need when your lair is done to immediately begin your spire. Alternatively, if you don't feel secure, you can delay this second extractor to put down a few more spines, and delay your spire as well.
@100 lair, spire
If you build your first queen immediately as you as you can after place your spire, your spire finishing will coincide with the four extra larvae spawning from your queen. I usually prefer to make some drones first though, as otherwise you'll be sitting at 3 idle larvae for a bit.
Once your spire's done, you should be able to make 3-4 mutas.
Why This Build Works
1) It's not the mutas that win the game, it's the follow-up.
This is not D- zvz in bw where you go 9 pool lair and your opponent doesn't scout it so you win because you have mutas. Partially because it's a game plan for competent opponents, and partially because having the queen as anti-air changes the match-up.
Having mutas this early provides two things. First of all it provides map control. One very quickly realizes that the gas off of one base does not support constant mutalisk production, nor does it allow you to use all your larvae, especially with a queen. This provides 3 possibilities to spend your minerals: a) more drones, b) zerglings, c) expanding. In game though, these aren't so much possibilities as that you are going to want to do all three. With early mutas, you can defend an expansion (keep in mind you have 4 spine crawlers that you can move).
Second of all, it forces a unit combination to counter the muta threat; one that can be relatively easily be countered by you. I will go more in depth on this later.
The scenario may even arise where he sacks his entire zergling force and focus entirely on getting enough queens and spores, and so on, that you can just run in the zerglings you will inevitably be getting to spend your minerals and win right there.
Also, one should keep in mind that unlike something like 9 pool lair in bw, you're not seriously sacrificing economy to pull off this rush, because you are starting at 14 pool. Yes you're spending drones on spines, but you are also not making any lings during this process; only drones. With that in mind, you will mine enough minerals to effectively expand without having to build a large number more of drones. If you are able to expand at a comparable time to your opponent's means that you are not at a disadvantage having done that rush.
2) Mobility and expansion denial
Assuming that your opponent didn't get his/her hatchery up before you have mutas up, you're in a fine position to block any attempt at expanding. Being vigilant in this regard is obviously a plus, you can move your mutas all around the map without any detriment until he gets past the zergling stage. Even if he catches your mutas out of position, you should have both lings of your own and the spines to fall back on.
In this scenario, the fact that you can adequately defend an expansion while being able to deny that to your opponent means that you should win the game in the long run.
Even if your opponent starts his/her hatchery while your spire is building, you have a possibility of destroying it as 3 muta are able to kill a queen without losing a mutalisk.
3) Overlord sniping
In bw zvz, the initial overlord you send to your opponent's base is usually considered to be very likely to be lost once mutas arrive. The same applies here; because you're not getting a queen before lair, many zergs will take advantage of this fact to leave their scouting overlord over your base for a while--which also means, however, that you can keep a mental note of where that overlord has gone for when your mutalisks pop.
If not, I usually leave an overlord by my opponent's natural to scout an expansion going up; there's no reason not assume an opponent might not do the same; you can use one of your own overlords to scout whether an overlord is there.
Alternatively, a sloppy rally outside their anti-air defense line, or keeping overlords around the perimeter of their base may allow you to nab some more.
In most scenarios, you should be able kill at least one overlord, against sloppy opponents this may stretch to 3 or more. Since zvz, like mirrors in general, is about gaining and maintaining small advantages, this cannot be discounted in both the potential food blocking, the mineral/larvae waste, and their being blind to your expansion timing.
Countering Counters
1) Beating a Hydra counter
An all hydra counter is very easy to deal with for a number of reasons.
First of all it does not require you to maintain your muta numbers without diminishing the mobility and threat of you having mutas. So there is no significant disadvantage to getting zergling speed instead of a muta, and going to straight into zergling/baneling production.
Second of all, hydras are very slow off creep (I faced an opponent one time who prepared a hydra counter who preemptively prepared a creepy highway with creep spewing overlords, but that just meant me getting four free overlords). That means if you see them pushing out with a significantly number of hydras, they are completely unable to avoid either the banelings (which blow hydras to pieces) nor the zergling surround.
If he remains more passive and stays on his creep, banelings/speedlings are still effective against your opponents expansion hatchery or drones, enough to build yourself an advantage.
It is the tendency for opponents at my level to go full anti-air so that this switch back to a land army is effective; if they realized that at least lings are inevitability, they may chose an army composition that is not entirely hydra.
This proceeding part is me theorycrafting; the only time I've played an opponent who went for a hydra counter and did not go all hydra is one time when one went hydra infestor. In that case, he still lost the majority of his army (including the infestors he made) to speedling baneling.
It seems unlikely that one would go heavily baneling speedling with going to hydra. This is firstly because he doesn't know that you've paused your mutalisk production, so he doesn't know how many hydras he would need to defend from your mutas halfway across the map, but even if he does, hydras are so expensive that he cannot afford to make as many lings as you can while using up all his gas. I don't really see this being an effective counter as long as you control well.
Against hydra roach, one again faces the issue of being extremely slow off creep which leaves any attack wide open to speedling/baneling. Even banelings/speedlings can't kill off the roaches, they can still target the hydras which leaves you both the spines to fall back on and the mutas to clean up.
Hydra infestor sounds like it might work, but requires good positioning and micro, as well as the fact that infestors are very gas intensive. I won't say that this is necessarily beaten by my build, but it comes down to once again, micro and positioning.
2) Beating a ling/baneling bust
Four spines should be able to hold. You have to be very much up on the uptake to get your drones away if he comes rolling in with banelings, but you should be able to survive without too many losses. (Also clumping spines so that two can get hit at once by banelings is a bad idea)
If you are really nervous, there's always the possibility of simply throwing down more spine crawlers to tide you over until you can both survive and afford to start your spire. In these scenarios, however, the opponent won't be able to get a hatchery up and anti air defenses to defend a natural as well as maintaining ling numbers. You'll be able to deny such attempts once you get mutas though, and once you get your own expansion safely up, that's the game. All is required against their attack is surviving with as few losses as possibilities until mutas give you that advantage.
A threat that should be seriously considered though, is building enough banelings to simply blow up your hatchery. This happened to me one game as my mutas were spawning. In that scenario, I was able to kill most of his drones/lings before he got spores up in time though, and win by rushing all my remaining drones to kill the remainder. 3-4 mutalisks is not something that very difficult to deflect, however, so elimination that way does seems possible?
3) Roach bust
This doesn't viable at all, roaches are very slow without their speed upgrade off creep, and take a long time to kill spines; enough for you to get your mutas out.
4) Beating a queen first muta rush
Like in bw zvz, there are a number of advantages for getting an earlier spire--because your opponent built a queen before spire, their spire will be significantly delayed compared to yours. First is the simple fact that if you don't lose any mutas, you should have more, and if you got your extractors earlier, more gas to spend on mutas. Second of all, you will earlier upgrades, which, because of the nature of muta vs muta, compounds into a significant advantage. Though carapace counts for more in this scenario, either having earlier +1 air attack or +1 air carapace will give you a definitive advantage, even if your muta stack is one or two mutas smaller.
Muta counters in general can also be beaten due to the advantages listed above, plus the addition you force them to go spores. With that in mind, you should be at a drone advantage (or equal to, given that they also had the extra queen larvae), as well as if they made a significant amount of lings while you were finishing your lair/spire. It does come down to control, though.
5) Corrupters
Corrupters are a choice that I have faced once, in a game that I ended up losing due to poor control on my part. I don't think that necessarily corrupters are the reason I lost though--they are slow, so they can't deny you from picking off things the way mutas can, and there is nothing stopping you from getting a corrupter or two of your own, other than the high gas cost. Having that and the upgrades allows you to maintain air superiority.
6) 6/7/8/9/10 pools
There's no more disadvantage to this build than the standard 14 pool that an all-in pool timing would gain other than the small period of time when your initial two spine crawlers are not up when your initial lings would be. But if you scout it, you can just go lings instead.
Issues
The strongest counter that I have personally faced is a hatch first build that goes for mutas to counter. You will still have the upgrade advantage, but because they have a queen to make more drones than you, and 3rd and 4th geysers to make more mutas. They would also gain more minerals, which allows them to match your ling count, as well as the extra production that you gain from the extra hatchery. The earlier hatch allows them enough time to both build a queen and be able to build spores that you won't be able to stop from going up once your mutas arrive.
I don't necessarily think that this build kills mine, though, as I've both lost and won against it. You still have earlier mutas, and map control because of it (plus any overlords lying around), and it is possible to get your expansion up as well. You also force spores, which is a double-edged sword in that they sacrificed drones in order to do so, as well as to get an evo, but also it means that once they get a sizeable muta force they force you to stay in position to protect your base as a muta counter attack would be in their favour.
Any ideas that would help against this?
Other than this counter (and part of the reason why that counter works so well), there are two major issues that I have with the way I currently conduct my build. Firstly, I play my build almost blind, mostly because I'm still in that bw mindset in where seeing a drone scout means you're being sunken rushed. Unlike in bw though, the queen means that the overlord isn't an effective form of scouting on its own, so I don't have a real good idea what my opponent is doing before mutas are out. In that way, this build works better on maps like scrap station, where you are able to get your overlord into their base to see their pool timing, and how soon you need spines.
Should I be drone scouting? At what food count? Should I be building a pair of zerglings instead of all drones to see his ling count?
More importantly, how many spines should I be making to correspond to his/her ling count? I'm going with four because that was the original idea, and it's served me well against the ling/baneling busts or running into the drone line I've faced so far. I haven't tried lasting with 3 or even 2, even though I'm already delaying my spire by making 4. I haven't got a practice partner or found a normal zvz timing where they attack (at the level I play at, anyway) to try beat these things out.
Secondly, zvz is a very reactive and dynamic match-up, where much of the game flows depending on the behavior of your opponent itself. The issue this creates for me in this build is that, you are locked into this build once you start your lair without a queen. If he early expands, you're not going to be able to go into mass ling to punish that, because you don't have the extra spawn larvae. I haven't tried cancelling the lair to go straight into banelings to punish an early expand, and I have no idea how effective that would be.
Anyway, thoughts?
EDIT: If you want to see low level diamond replays of me winning by doing this, say so and I'll provide them.
EDIT: went out and played a zvz as a proof of concept? He's a 1000 point zerg.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/1691/Vanka_vs_MACHETE
vs. one base fast infestor hydra
EDIT: Another replay
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/1744/Vanka_vs_SarkFall
vs. 2 base hydra roach
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holy crap! crazy long post and props! But the main problem with ZvZ imho is theres no safe build. A hatch first build will top this one. by just out macroing you (or getting more mutas than you) if the other person decides to just macro up, any spines you put down will put you behind etc. like you mentioned in the issues section. Like i said its the main problem with zerg, you cant even play reactionary because youre commited to whichever build you chose (i.e. hatch first, gas pool, etc.)
I would just expand asap if you see a FE build and hope you can macro better than the other guy. if you have spines it would create a transition where you can just move it and hope you can do some damage with the early mutas to justify the super late expo. Other than that, thats really tough.
Also, i always go 13 gas 12 pool in ZvZ. Its really hard to stop especially with roach builds and fast tech builds. I get banelings when your warren just pops. and can do eco damage. even with spines, if you send lings first before banelings, spines are useless because they attack the lings instead. even if they kill the banelings, its 2 shots so they can get to the drones before
one thing i kind of have trouble is REALLY good sim city. but even then if you get enough banelings, spines die instantly also. Theres a reason why baneling/speedling dominates ZvZ, but there are other options but like i said before, ZvZ is broken in that openings counter other openings. it shouldnt be that way
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beat that regulary with roach hydra + some spores. if i see early gas and lair, i delay gas a bit in favor of droning, then lair=>hydra/roach. Also some extra queens help (you'll be ahead in economy). When pushing hydra roach, leave some 5 hydras at your base to avoid getting ripped by mutas.
edit: you can A-move the push and micro hydras+queens against mutas in case :-D
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serA i do really nice sim city every game opening with early roaches and 2 spines between my minerals and chatch and arount them buildings like pool roach warren 1 gas and that 2 spines witch i mentioned.
if you fail 1-2 pushes to my base you gonna be so much behind cuz i get roaches and start teching to hydras.then expo and roach hydras infestor push.
i was doing muta ling before but for me early spines then early roaches into FE and hydras + infestorst are better than ling bling.
i might be wrong, i'm just mid diamond
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On October 01 2010 17:10 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
beat that regulary with roach hydra + some spores. if i see early gas and lair, i delay gas a bit in favor of droning, then lair=>hydra/roach. Also some extra queens help (you'll be ahead in economy). When pushing hydra roach, leave some 5 hydras at your base to avoid getting ripped by mutas.
edit: you can A-move the push and micro hydras+queens against mutas in case :-D
See the beauty of the build is that you gain a huge amount of map control in getting mutas out so early, and after that if the opponent doesn't pick a muta counter, there's no real pressure to stay on muta. You can get a roach warren and baneling nest up in time (maybe even roach speed?) that a hydra roach push would come, since hydras are so slow.
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I highly doubt the effectiveness of this. Most likely a Z player will either mass sling/bling, or expand (or even both since lings are so cheap). With enough lings/blings (really not that many), they could definitely take out 4 spinecrawlers, especially since they have perfect scouting information, and you have none.
If they expand, you'll have as much 2-3 minutes of muta production that they dont. However muta production is limited by gas not larvae, so as soon as they have a spire they can spend their 4 geysers worth of stockpiled gas and instantly be ahead.
So really this only works if they stay on one base, and dont attack.
If you'd like add me, and you can test it ~ SpiciestZerg.326
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On October 01 2010 17:23 SpiciestZerg wrote:
I highly doubt the effectiveness of this. Most likely a Z player will either mass sling/bling, or expand (or even both since lings are so cheap). With enough lings/blings (really not that many), they could definitely take out 4 spinecrawlers, especially since they have perfect scouting information, and you have none.
If they expand, you'll have as much 2-3 minutes of muta production that they dont. However muta production is limited by gas not larvae, so as soon as they have a spire they can spend their 4 geysers worth of stockpiled gas and instantly be ahead.
So really this only works if they stay on one base, and dont attack.
If you'd like add me, and you can test it ~ SpiciestZerg.326
No actually, I've won every game where they attacked. You have your overlord over their ramp, you can see if they're committing to an attack, and put down more spines if necessary--that's not an issue. Also, you get mutas really, really, really early. At the level I was playing at (500-600 diamond), people didn't know their attack timings, and often their mass ling attack actually came as my mutas were popping.
Also, you're not sitting on one base once you get your spire up. You have complete map control with the mutas, nothing's stopping you from expanding, especially as your minerals run up really quick with constant muta production.
EDIT: oops, I'm taking a break from ladder for the next couple days, but I'll add you when I have time, for sure.
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If I saw you trying to tech I would begin to mass banelings, destroy your spine crawlers and come in and clean up with lings. A spire takes an absurd amount of time to morph + lair time. Which is 350/300, which should be enough banelings to take out the spine crawlers, a bunch of drones and your spire.
Dunno I just find more success in constant and neverending agression.
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Isn't this just a muta build with sling/bling except you make spines in the beginning? Basically you determine how heavy muta you want to be, if he hard counters your mutas then you hard counter him back with the slinging blingings. Even if it works right now, level of players will get higher = better infestor control = dead slinging blingings.
I would just mass mutas and just harass to death meanwhile taking map control, expanding, and massing a big hydra roach infestor ball. If it becomes a muta vs muta game, well, it is what it is.
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On October 01 2010 17:39 scph wrote:
Isn't this just a muta build with sling/bling except you make spines in the beginning? Basically you determine how heavy muta you want to be, if he hard counters your mutas then you hard counter him back with the slinging blingings. Even if it works right now, level of players will get higher = better infestor control = dead slinging blingings.
I would just mass mutas and just harass to death meanwhile taking map control, expanding, and massing a big hydra roach infestor ball. If it becomes a muta vs muta game, well, it is what it is.
Yeah it is, basically. It's just really really really fast mutas.
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On October 01 2010 17:29 Vanka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 17:23 SpiciestZerg wrote:
I highly doubt the effectiveness of this. Most likely a Z player will either mass sling/bling, or expand (or even both since lings are so cheap). With enough lings/blings (really not that many), they could definitely take out 4 spinecrawlers, especially since they have perfect scouting information, and you have none.
If they expand, you'll have as much 2-3 minutes of muta production that they dont. However muta production is limited by gas not larvae, so as soon as they have a spire they can spend their 4 geysers worth of stockpiled gas and instantly be ahead.
So really this only works if they stay on one base, and dont attack.
If you'd like add me, and you can test it ~ SpiciestZerg.326 At the level I was playing at (500-600 diamond), people didn't know their attack timings, and often their mass ling attack actually came as my mutas were popping.
Really? that seems very bad even for that level.
and for throwing down more spines when you see their push coming, on most maps cant they reach you before the 50 sec build time is up?
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On October 01 2010 17:51 SpiciestZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 17:29 Vanka wrote:On October 01 2010 17:23 SpiciestZerg wrote:
I highly doubt the effectiveness of this. Most likely a Z player will either mass sling/bling, or expand (or even both since lings are so cheap). With enough lings/blings (really not that many), they could definitely take out 4 spinecrawlers, especially since they have perfect scouting information, and you have none.
If they expand, you'll have as much 2-3 minutes of muta production that they dont. However muta production is limited by gas not larvae, so as soon as they have a spire they can spend their 4 geysers worth of stockpiled gas and instantly be ahead.
So really this only works if they stay on one base, and dont attack.
If you'd like add me, and you can test it ~ SpiciestZerg.326 At the level I was playing at (500-600 diamond), people didn't know their attack timings, and often their mass ling attack actually came as my mutas were popping. Really? that seems very bad even for that level. and for throwing down more spines when you see their push coming, on most maps cant they reach you before the 50 sec build time is up?
more like they can't kill 4 spines as well as the time it takes to get across the map before the rest finish.
EDIT: grammar
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On October 01 2010 17:33 strifepk wrote:
If I saw you trying to tech I would begin to mass banelings, destroy your spine crawlers and come in and clean up with lings. A spire takes an absurd amount of time to morph + lair time. Which is 350/300, which should be enough banelings to take out the spine crawlers, a bunch of drones and your spire.
Dunno I just find more success in constant and neverending agression.
I see it's not evident how fast mutas get out. Basically if you open 14 pool, 10 game seconds before your first larvae injection makes larvae, my spire is starting, and 3 larvae injections later I have mutas out.
You have to be dedicating as fast a bust possible, and factor in the time to go across the map. Plus most of the time, banelings aren't aiming for the spines, they're going for the drones, which is not that hard to just pull and go back. Plus you need an evo, or else the 4 mutas you can't stop me from building are going to kill the queen and kill all your stuff.
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I think this build is counting too much on the opposing player not scouting and/or not knowing how to respond. Its too easily (and brutally) countered imo - but i'm all for people working out additional zvz builds as there aren't too many to chose from.
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i am diamond and the safest build I have found is the very economic hatch first into roaches/hydras.
it is really not that hard to get up enough defense or queens to delay until you get hydras to deal with mutas.
you say to deal with hydras use zerglings, but the problem with that is the hydras are behind roaches. every time someone goes muta against me, i have been able to attack move with a ball of roaches/hydras and win.
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On October 02 2010 03:28 aliciakeys wrote:
i am diamond and the safest build I have found is the very economic hatch first into roaches/hydras.
it is really not that hard to get up enough defense or queens to delay until you get hydras to deal with mutas.
you say to deal with hydras use zerglings, but the problem with that is the hydras are behind roaches. every time someone goes muta against me, i have been able to attack move with a ball of roaches/hydras and win.
I'd have to agree with this guy. I used to try to pressure super early with banelings and speedlings, but it was hit or miss -- once the other Z got mutas, I really hoped I had the queens to fight them off.
However, it's really easy to spot whether or not the other Z is planning to go straight to mutalisks. Especially if he's not even dropping a baneling nest and/or getting a queen first. The second you do, you know you can expand, get to lair, drop a hydra den, and pump queens from two hatcheries. You get the eventual creep spread you need to defend against mutalisk harass from all the defensive queens but you also have saturation on two bases earlier.
It's hard to stop that economic edge since mutalisks are so resource-intensive off of one-base but don't really give you much power in a stand-up fight. Once infestors are on the field, it becomes even more dangerous to harass with mutalisks...
EDIT: I'd also disagree that the correct response to this build would be a bust. He's sacrificing any early game map presence for later map control with mutalisks. If you wait too long to expand (and spend resources and larvae on army now instead of spending them on tech to counter what you KNOW he's going to do), it gets riskier and riskier for you. If the bust fails, he's got mutalisks and you're SOL.
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On October 02 2010 03:39 Toxigen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 03:28 aliciakeys wrote:
i am diamond and the safest build I have found is the very economic hatch first into roaches/hydras.
it is really not that hard to get up enough defense or queens to delay until you get hydras to deal with mutas.
you say to deal with hydras use zerglings, but the problem with that is the hydras are behind roaches. every time someone goes muta against me, i have been able to attack move with a ball of roaches/hydras and win. I'd have to agree with this guy. I used to try to pressure super early with banelings and speedlings, but it was hit or miss -- once the other Z got mutas, I really hoped I had the queens to fight them off. However, it's really easy to spot whether or not the other Z is planning to go straight to mutalisks. Especially if he's not even dropping a baneling nest and/or getting a queen first. The second you do, you know you can expand, get to lair, drop a hydra den, and pump queens from two hatcheries. You get the eventual creep spread you need to defend against mutalisk harass from all the defensive queens but you also have saturation on two bases earlier. It's hard to stop that economic edge since mutalisks are so resource-intensive off of one-base but don't really give you much power in a stand-up fight. Once infestors are on the field, it becomes even more dangerous to harass with mutalisks... EDIT: I'd also disagree that the correct response to this build would be a bust. He's sacrificing any early game map presence for later map control with mutalisks. If you wait too long to expand (and spend resources and larvae on army now instead of spending them on tech to counter what you KNOW he's going to do), it gets riskier and riskier for you. If the bust fails, he's got mutalisks and you're SOL.
I agree that hatchery is the correct response to this. Staying one base lets me get my hatch up unchallenged and allows me to deny any corresponding attempts, which means I win. But let me clarify a few things about the build.
Firstly, the initial timings are identical to a speedling baneling opening. It looks exactly the same, the only variation is building a drone at 16 rather than overlord because you're not getting a queen. The opponent has no reason to suspect that you're doing something different nor that the usual scouting blocks aren't in place--in the replay I linked, the guy drone scouted, and left when my pool was about to finish and left so lings wouldn't get him. He didn't move the overlord into my base, because he assumed the same queen timing. He didn't realize I didn't go for the standard ling/baneling until he sent his first 6 lings for the usual engagement, and then (granted it's a long distance on that map) my spire was a 1/3 done. In fact, if you see a drone in your base looking like it's going to stick around and it's before 16 food, you can just open with the normal speedling baneling build no problem.
Secondly, you're not staying on one base. If you choose to, you can get your initial 3-4 mutalisks and then immediately throw down your expansion; don't forget that you still have a substantial worker count, around 22-24? if I recall correctly since you're building drones the entire time.
Thirdly, against a non-muta counter, you have a huge window of time where you have control of the map, and the time when an opponent will push you. If you're facing roach-hydra and the roaches are in front, then you can leave your banelings outside and flank once he enters your natural, and leave the roaches to the four spines you have and lings. Hydraroach being very slow off creep won't be able to reposition themselves to avoid a flank. The real danger is infestors, but that's no different than usual with a muta ling composition (though again, you can switch into roach hardcore no problem since you have that huge window of time).
And lastly, this is a not a harassment dependent build. You don't need to any damage whatsoever to the opponent (though you should take the free overlords he gives to you), unless he expands first and in that scenario only in so much as you need to even it until your expand (which will come very quickly) gets up. At that point, you still have map control, so you have the ability to get your third up first as well, as he is unable to punish you without giving you ample time to react because hydra roach is so slow. Against mutas, that's different, but you will have your own third and fourth gas up very soon and the upgrade advantage, so it's hardly a set loss.
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On October 02 2010 06:06 Vanka wrote:
The opponent has no reason to suspect that you're doing something different nor that the usual scouting blocks aren't in place
This is not true. In zvz, first you scout with the drone. Then you scout with a zergling. The zergling scout see the lair going up.
Do you really think this is still viable even if it's scouted?
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This build could work a totally different way i think and be a lot stronger.
Instead of all the spine crawlers, build a roach warren. You'll be stockpiling gas for mutas, so if the attack comes before mutars, just pop roaches and drop a couple spine crawlers. If you scout him making spore crawlers, cancel spire and attack and expand.
I would let him scout you, assume he's going to scout you, and play accordingly. If the mutars get up and going, great. If not, be prepared to defend/counter with roaches.
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As a zerg, why can't we focus on being able to support mutas with long term economy?
Sure, you can one base muta rush and be superbly effective with it, like what the OP has thoroughly detailed, but any competent zerg player I think would be very suspicious if 4 drones get plopped into spines on just the one base. Sure, the enemy may not be able to get hydras right away which already are really slow, but if the non rusher sees the turtle they can immediately drop an expo/evo and feel safe about it.
Habe you also ever considered zerg teching into infester?
Hydras+ FG= INSTANT gg. the infester would be probably be as gas intensive as going mutas, probably a lil less one the mutas start to mass.
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On October 02 2010 06:37 aliciakeys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 06:06 Vanka wrote:
The opponent has no reason to suspect that you're doing something different nor that the usual scouting blocks aren't in place This is not true. In zvz, first you scout with the drone. Then you scout with a zergling. The zergling scout see the lair going up. Do you really think this is still viable even if it's scouted?
Every game it's been scouted I've won, unless they've got hatch first muta counter. If the drone leaves right before the pool pops like they would do anticipating lings, with a normal 13gas 13pool 16 overlord 16 queen, by the time the first two lings would arrive the lair would be almost done.
On October 02 2010 06:49 Roaming wrote:
This build could work a totally different way i think and be a lot stronger.
Instead of all the spine crawlers, build a roach warren. You'll be stockpiling gas for mutas, so if the attack comes before mutars, just pop roaches and drop a couple spine crawlers. If you scout him making spore crawlers, cancel spire and attack and expand.
I would let him scout you, assume he's going to scout you, and play accordingly. If the mutars get up and going, great. If not, be prepared to defend/counter with roaches.
This defeats the purpose of the build. 1) going warren would delay the mutas, 2) the point of the build is to get an incredibly early lair with a healthy economy. That means dedicating every single one of your larvae to drones, or an overlord. Building units would mean that it would be an all-in and make it harder to expand as a follow-up.
On October 02 2010 07:07 Zvendetta wrote:
As a zerg, why can't we focus on being able to support mutas with long term economy?
Sure, you can one base muta rush and be superbly effective with it, like what the OP has thoroughly detailed, but any competent zerg player I think would be very suspicious if 4 drones get plopped into spines on just the one base. Sure, the enemy may not be able to get hydras right away which already are really slow, but if the non rusher sees the turtle they can immediately drop an expo/evo and feel safe about it.
Habe you also ever considered zerg teching into infester?
Hydras+ FG= INSTANT gg. the infester would be probably be as gas intensive as going mutas, probably a lil less one the mutas start to mass.
Yes they can get spores up, and it doesn't matter at all. You don't have to do damage with the mutas--watch the replay, I basically didn't do anything with the mutas the entire game except remind him that I have mutas.
I did a section on hydra infestor in the retardedly long OP, and in the replay the opponent goes early infestor to counter.
But for crying out loud, I said specifically that getting mutas won't win you the game. It will NEVER EVER win you the game at diamond. It's the follow-up that wins you the game, because you are given map control. It's about getting 4 mutas and making them spore up like crazy and then running your larger zergling force. It's about getting 4 mutas and make them go mass hydra, and then surprising them with a gazillion banelings when they crawl to your side of the map. If they go a composition against which massing mutas would not be optimal, then you have plenty of economy to do ANY tech switch you want and they can't scout it because you have a handful of mutas.
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Infestors will rape this build.
I've tried going muta/ling many a ZvZ, but people are getting very good at infestor control now and both of these units are very weak to infestors. Good placed fungal growths + roach/hydra will own this. Especially if the opponent grabs an expansion, he can just spore up until he can get infestors out. Players with mutas are inclined to stack them and attack, and this is smart because thats one way to reduce damage and do more damage, but what people don't realise is that it makes them very susceptible to fungal growth. I'm doubtful of the results of this build because I have used it many times and failed. But what do I know, I'm only a low diamond zerg  (1400)
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lol if i see mass of spines i go mass infestor to , and throw free units at u :D
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I would actually probably go mass queen to defend then just keep pummeling your front with banelings/lings. Not saying this isn't a good build. But I think we've all seen a lot of "turtle into mutalisk" strategies.
There's nothing really about a hard queen counter to this. Queens are better IMO because they don't die to banelings which are already really common in ZvZ, and they're much cheaper for their effectiveness.
Though I don't argue with what works. If it works, sweet!
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On October 02 2010 07:33 GenesisX wrote:Infestors will rape this build. I've tried going muta/ling many a ZvZ, but people are getting very good at infestor control now and both of these units are very weak to infestors. Good placed fungal growths + roach/hydra will own this. Especially if the opponent grabs an expansion, he can just spore up until he can get infestors out. Players with mutas are inclined to stack them and attack, and this is smart because thats one way to reduce damage and do more damage, but what people don't realise is that it makes them very susceptible to fungal growth. I'm doubtful of the results of this build because I have used it many times and failed. But what do I know, I'm only a low diamond zerg (1400)
Then throw down an infestation pit instead and pump lings? I've described the build as a muta rush because I've used it as a muta rush, but what is really having at least 18 drones and a lair 10 game seconds before your opponent's first spawn larvae would spawn.
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Just watched the replay and it confirmed my suspicion about this build. It relies entirely on your opponent over reacting.
In the attached replay, the opponent is really just at a loss as to what to do. He sees the spire and decides to:
- Stop drone production.
- Build infestation pit + infestors.
- Build Evo chamber + 3 crawlers.
- Build 2 extra queens.
- Build a Hydra den + hydras.
When he scouted your base with his lings, he had the presence of mind to go see and attack your spire. This also told him that it was only protected by one crawler. All he had to do was send 10 lings in and you were down a spire while he was free to start his. Or, he could have rolled some banelings in. Or he could have mass produced some units and rolled over you. Even if the mutas do get out, 3 mutas aren't going to stop the horde of lings in your base.
I don't mean to be a negative nancy. But we develop and use builds because they work well and consistently. This build would never work twice against the same opponent and I am willing to bet that by 1K+ diamond, every zerg opponent will treat you to a nice 40 ling present before your mutas are ready.
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On October 02 2010 07:37 DoubleReed wrote:
I would actually probably go mass queen to defend then just keep pummeling your front with banelings/lings. Not saying this isn't a good build. But I think we've all seen a lot of "turtle into mutalisk" strategies.
There's nothing really about a hard queen counter to this. Queens are better IMO because they don't die to banelings which are already really common in ZvZ, and they're much cheaper for their effectiveness.
Though I don't argue with what works. If it works, sweet!
The first game I tried doing this, the opponent did this. My baneling switch killed all his queens and all his drones, and when my mutas finished off the lings he ran into my base, he had nothing left.
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If you want my honest opinion...
i would kill you with 5 roaches.
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I love this.
I am going to try it out and see how this build feels. Just out of curiosity how does your build stand to up to the zerg player scouting it and responding with spores? Also do you think it would be effective to delay the lair so you could get 1 queen out quick to lay a tumor and start marching towards the ramp to block it then when your spines come on line they can overlook the ramp?
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I'm not sure if I'm sold this build, but I do like the idea. Yes, hydras/infestors/queens are good counters to muta, we all know that. The point of this build is to get your mutas out absurdly fast, way before your opponent expects it. I'm not sure if spine crawlers are the most ideal defense, but they are certainly the best bang for your already limited supply of larvae.
I can see this having a problem with mass roaches, though. I've found that getting a quick 10 roaches with my first 2 injects are great counters to fast tech and expand builds. If you pooped creep at your ramp and walled it off with the crawlers, you might be able to hold. Otherwise, I imagine that you could simply run your roaches around the static D and hit from behind. Have you encountered this response?
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This build is easy to scout. Any decent diamond player would know the correct response.
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I've never tried to go for mutas that fast, i'll have to try it out, Thanks for the post. 100% agree with a fast expand to counter - I've played against a similar build a few times this week, though they weren't pushing mutas quite that fast and exapnd->hydra/infestor has worked well. It seems most players have been scouting earlier/more often in ZvZ of late.
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On October 02 2010 07:42 Vexx wrote:
I don't mean to be a negative nancy. But we develop and use builds because they work well and consistently. This build would never work twice against the same opponent and I am willing to bet that by 1K+ diamond, every zerg opponent will treat you to a nice 40 ling present before your mutas are ready.
Only reached 800 diamond right now, but here's a replay where I beat a 1100 diamond? Though he played poorly, I made some huge mistakes too, getting my drones stuck, letting him expo, and wasting mutas and lings.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/1744/Vanka_vs_SarkFall
On October 02 2010 12:48 Cryosin wrote:
If you want my honest opinion...
i would kill you with 5 roaches.
I only faced roaches once, and I forgot to save the replay, but do 5 roaches actually kill 4 spine crawlers straight up? Spines are pretty buff. It's not like you can't pull drones either.
Regardless, first I should add that this works much better on maps with long rush distances, for obvious reasons. The reason I feel roaches aren't a good counter is because they are so slow off creep and then though they do kill spines, they do so very slowly. In the game that I didn't save (on blistering sands), by the time he finished killing two out of four spine crawlers, and my mutas popped.
On October 02 2010 15:58 Mindspider wrote:
I can see this having a problem with mass roaches, though. I've found that getting a quick 10 roaches with my first 2 injects are great counters to fast tech and expand builds. If you pooped creep at your ramp and walled it off with the crawlers, you might be able to hold. Otherwise, I imagine that you could simply run your roaches around the static D and hit from behind. Have you encountered this response?
I haven't personally met this response, but roaches are very slow to move across the map. You would be able to kill the spines, most likely, but if you're going to wait for 2 larvae injections, mutas should be out, and then it's just matter of keeping my drones alive until the mutas finally kill them off, expanding, and the running that advantage to the end.
On October 02 2010 15:57 terranghost wrote:
I love this.
I am going to try it out and see how this build feels. Just out of curiosity how does your build stand to up to the zerg player scouting it and responding with spores? Also do you think it would be effective to delay the lair so you could get 1 queen out quick to lay a tumor and start marching towards the ramp to block it then when your spines come on line they can overlook the ramp?
At diamond, they're always going to scout it coming, and there's always going to spores (unless they go mass queen I guess?). The goal is to expand as soon as you can't make mutas due to gas (I think this is at at most five mutas?), and deny their expansion as much as possible. If they go mutas, keep massing mutas and get upgrades asap, and unless their expansion is much much earlier than yours you should win. If they go hydra, immediately throw down a baneling nest, make a ton of banelings and when they push you, boom they have no army, you didn't lose any mutas, you win.
You can make a queen first, but that defeats the purpose of the build which is having complete map control very soon. You can position an overlord over your ramp if you want to poop creep as soon as you hit lair, but the biggest danger is banelings, and clumping your spines together is just asking to get hurt.
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Very weak build if opponent is agressive.
I would just make roaches and push and you will at least have huge looses (most of time gg). Even if you mutas pop when I am with roaches in your bases it does not matter cause mutas do like no dmg to roaches..
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EPT
