EPTAlso, what are your thoughts on getting a Forge and upgrading your melee units? Should this only be done mid/late game when you have a good eco?
[G] The Big 3 Gate-Robo Guide - Page 2
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GeodizL
Australia3 Posts
Also, what are your thoughts on getting a Forge and upgrading your melee units? Should this only be done mid/late game when you have a good eco? | ||
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Wartortle
Australia504 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
In TvP, 3 gate robo basically forces you to engage the terran army, because if you don't and he expanded, you're at an economic disadvantage. Likewise, if you ever want to expand vs an aggressive terran, you have to engage him before even laying an expansion down. It's a build where you're going to have to make that first engagement count and if you don't win it you will lose the game. That's why it's an allin build. In ZvP, 3 gate robo vs any FE zerg forces you into an allin push because zerg's eco left untouched will skyrocket compared to yours since your expo is either really late, or not even started. If you don't end the game or set zerg back right there it's really hard to come back economically. PvP is different though. P simply can't blind FE, and there's many "allin" builds which completely slaughter greedy play. 3 gate robo is really strong vs 4 warpgate, the most common type of push. Even a super early 4 warpgate can be delayed with a sentry and beaten after reinforcements arrive. Because a 4 warpgate is easily scoutable (no early 2nd gas, chronoboosts on warpgate), a 3 gate robo build can be used reactively. It is not an allin in this case, since you are ahead even if you don't engage. However, 3 gate robo is fairly weak to a few other builds, namely stargate builds, but they also are weak vs early expand builds. It is possible to do 1/2 gate expand vs 3 gate robo play and hold it with appropriate micro. In this case, 3 gate robo IS an allin because you're so significantly behind in economy if you don't do economic damage. For this reason, I don't think 3 gate robo is a build worth delving into with regards to PvZ and PvT. it's limited and allin and not a good build to use as standard play. You see a lot of players either early expand from 1/2 gates, or go for a safe 2 gate robo play into expansion if they see aggression. Only vs a truly allin play by the other player is a 3rd gate a good idea. PvP is where 3 gate robo needs serious analysis. I'm not well enough versed in PvP to say much more about it than I already have. I'd like to hear the analysis of a better player in that regard. (*cough* HuK *cough*) | ||
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ionize
Ireland399 Posts
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Eduro
United States88 Posts
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Weird
United States832 Posts
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drsnuggles
Korea (South)362 Posts
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anathema
Poland20 Posts
On October 01 2010 04:26 drsnuggles wrote: Try to upload the replays somewhere where one doesn't have to register to be able to download it. Otherwise, nice guide, you should think about adding it to the Liquipedia I can only second that, would love to see the reps too. | ||
NETRAT
Belarus180 Posts
Immortals do 50 damage to an armored target and 35 to light targets what? it was always 20 + 30 vs armored, when did they get 35 vs light?comparison to siege tank is at least inaccurate zerglings and marines wreck immo, they are nessesary only if opponent goes heavy on roaches maradeurs or stalkers, even then zealot + stalker deals fairly well (2 stalkers = 1 immortal cost&supply) Immortals are also notable for their extremely durable armor, which reduces all attacks down to 10 damage while their shields are up. This makes them EXTREMELY good vs siege tanks, ultralisks, and stalkers. as well as almost any other armored target in the game meh, shield doesnt make them good vs stalkers, it's damage bonus to armored units makes them good(2 stalker deal ~14 dps to immortal shields and 18 dps to hull, while immortal deals 34 dps to stalker, so shields are not that good vs stalkers)In PvP it should be said that Colossus are one of the only units in the game without a cost effective counter. When playing standard, a PvP game will generally come down to who has the most colossus. i think it's stupid that protoss doesn't have decent antiair units (phoenix are only good vs mutas and banshee), so in sutuation where terran can pump out some vikings and zerg is supposed to get corruptors, protoss have no responcei'm also deviating from pure gateway builds to 3gate-robo lately | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
One typo though, when talking about countering hidden mutas you said something about dropping some starports. *stargates | ||
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SONE
Canada839 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
With that being said, as pointed out by many others before me, you kinda ruined your credibility here by claiming that immortals (a key unit in this build) do 35 damage to light units. Many other things you claim are also simply not true. For example, unupgraded marines doing 6 damage a shot will NOT do 1 damage against +3 armor GS'ed zealots - you're right in that you can't do 0 damage but it's possible to do fractions of damage. Also, 1 zealot will not be able to single-handedly beat 4 marines or 4 zerglings, even without micro on both sides. In addition, many of your other points that you strongly suggest are merely your own opinions, and are not so much facts as you imply they are. For example, you claim that phoenix are the only way of effectively dealing with mutas (not true), or that you shouldn't expand in the face of aggression (PvT 1 gate fe is actually a decent counter to the common 2 tech lab 1 reactor rush). Being your guide, it's ok to give your personal preferences, but you shouldn't state them as if they are always the best and only route to go. I feel like you also contradicted yourself several times through the course of the guide. You talk about avoiding colossus in PvT, but then give several examples of why colossus are great in PvT. You mention that phoenix is the only option against mutas, but then you say that archons are also exceptional vs mutas. Overall, this isn't a bad guide, and with some work has the potential to be a great one. Keep up the good work. | ||
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Triky
Peru99 Posts
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
On September 29 2010 14:18 Condor Hero wrote: damn right. most 4-gaters go heavy on stalkers because they are the most versatile and FF greatly limits zealots. immortals dominate stalkers and it should also be noted that with +1 weapons, immortals 3 shot stalkers. basically i just feel that immortals and good macro off 2-3 gates holds off every early push, even against terran. of course you gotta micro a bit to make sure your immortals do good damage against armored. on a sidenote , immortals are the dragoons of sc2. they have retarded AI, theyre freaking slow, they have short range so sometimes they end up shuffling behind stalkers if you dont micro well but they do a ton of dmg in the right situation. Immortals get their asses kicked by a player with decent micro who can FF to cut your army in half, trapping your immortals behind your zealots while your opponent's army cuts you down piecemeal. Or even just traps your immortals up against the opponent's zealots. Immortals are only effective if your opponent doesn't have sentries. | ||
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