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[G] The Big 3 Gate-Robo Guide

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Hakker
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1360 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-29 18:48:59
September 29 2010 03:36 GMT
#1
The Big 3-Gate Robo Guide


Introduction

Hello, and welcome to my first guide. A little about me; I'm a protoss player who's played broodwar since I was 8 years old but never got far and mostly played for fun. Later I played Warcraft 3 and DotA at a higher level and then played WoW to the highest of the arena bracket, at 2800 rating and above.

I've been reintroduced to Starcraft when the beta first came out and my friend who worked at Blizzard was able to get me a key. I quickly reached the top of the ladders and after a month of playing had reached the top of platinum league (the highest at the time) and since release sit at the 1400-1500 range.

By no means am I an amazing player and find flaws with my play all the time and am still working hard on reaching the top. I made this guide because I see many protoss having trouble with the transition period between warpgate and beyond.

This guide, at the time of reading this message, is still a work in progress. I plan on adding much more to the later chapters, adding more pictures and graphics, and adding information to the glossary and replays. Lastly, I hope it is useful to you as a protoss player in becoming a better player.

Listening Music


Contents
I. Basic strategy
II. Mid Level Strategy
III. Advanced Strategy
IV. Scouting Quick Reference Guide (Glossary)
V. Replays
VI. Resources



Chapter 1: Basic Strategy

Introduction to Protoss
So if you came this far I'm assuming you know how to pick protoss as your race and understand the basic mechanics of the race. In case your unfamiliar, here's a quick introduction of the units.

Firstly, pat yourself on the back for choosing to play protoss. It is easy to see that protoss are the most micro intensive race, with each unit having a unique ability in combat, and each unit is worth more than their zerg or terran counterparts. This means that each unit, especially at the higher tiers, requires good game sense and proper reaction to use to its maximum ability.

In this section, I'll go over each important unit and explain how it incorporates itself into a 3 gate robo opener army, explain the general build order, and explain some basic tips for how each unit should be used.

The Build

This is the general build I use for almost all match-ups where I plan on playing standard. It is hugely flexible, gives me quick observers and Immortals, and allows me to make a safe expand into the mid-game.

For those just interested in the build order, it is listed here below. Credits to the YABOT map-makers, where I got the general layout from.


9 Pylon
13 Gateway
14 Assimilator
15 Pylon
17 Cybernetics Core
19 Zealot
23 Robotics Facility
24 Pylon
24 Warpgate Tech
25 Assimilator
26 Stalker
30 Pylon
30 Warpgate
30 Observer
32 Warpgate
33 Sentry
35 Pylon
36 Immortal


This build essentially protects you from any early push from Terran, puts you in a safe position to expand vs. a Fast Expanding zerg, and is flexible enough to let you deal with any cheese coming.

More on this later.

Naturally, it is not set in stone, and it is absolutely essential to react accordingly to all information you have.

Meet the Team

Please keep in mind, this section is based off the usage of these units in a 3 gate robotics facility build. I realise there are many different uses for each unit and they are all stronger and weaker in different builds. As such, are explained in a way that is relevant to this guide.

This section will be exceptionally longer than the others, as I will be going over many of the basics of protoss units and their usage. If you are an experienced player and don't think you would benefit from this I recommend skipping it.

Sentry

The sentry is, without a doubt, the most important unit for surviving protoss early game. It is a gas-heavy spell caster which has 3 abilities of varying usage.
Forcefield
+ Show Spoiler +

Forcefield is one of the most powerful abilities in the game. Without high tier massive units in the game (namely Thors, Ultralisks and Colossus) a forcefield creates an impassable wall that has the ability to push units back, trap units, and split entire armies.

An entire guide could be written about forcefield usage, however, here are some basic tips to laying down good forcefields.

A good forcefield will either force your opponent to pull units back, trap several units in place so that melee units can attack them, or block units from accessing your ramp and your base.

Example of a good forcefield:

[image loading]


for the cost of 50 energy, i was able to delay his attack as well as kill several units.

Bad forcefields, on the other hand, can be doubly as damaging if not moreso. A bad forcefield can trap units on the other side, trapping melee units from attacking ranged units, or even trapping your own units in place for the enemy.

Example of a bad forcefield:

[image loading]


Like I said, entire novels could be written on proper forcefield usage. These are just a few basic uses. With something so integral to protoss strategy, It is important for any serious player to master forcefields and do everything they can to use them to their maximum potential


Guardian Shield

+ Show Spoiler +

Guardian shield is probably one of the most useful abilities in the game for dealing with lots of low damage ranged attacks, specifically marines.
Just some math, Un-upgraded marines do 6 damage. With 3 armor upgrade, Zealots have 4 armor. With guardian shield up, the marines damage is reduced to 1. Keep in mind, that it is impossible for any attack in starcraft to do 0 damage.
While there will very rarely be an occasion where you will have 3 upgrades and the opponent will have 0, Its no doubt that guardian shield is definitely worth using.


Hallucination
+ Show Spoiler +

While hallucination is rather irrelevant to this build as you will have access to plenty of observers, Its worth mentioning in case your opponent is doing something to deny scouting. It is also useful for spawning high-hp units to soak up damage, though I've never seen any high level player get it for this reason or use it effectively



Zealot

Zealots are one of the biggest damage dealers in your army. They are extremely cheap for a protoss unit, do a high amount of damage, have 2 attacks, and later in the game become extremely powerful with the charge upgrade.

Zealots are units that heavily benefit from the proper usage of forcefields, as their main weakness is that they are slow. Zealots have no chance of catching up to a terran ball unassisted without charge, and often times zerglings can simply run past them and wreak havoc on your mineral line.
Zealots are good for blocking walls, as they come out early and are excellent at stopping zergling run-bys.

Zealot Walling
+ Show Spoiler +


Zealot walling is one of the most important and one of the most fickle skills in the PvZ match-up. It is very easy for a wall to fail, and zerglings to enter your main. I can't tell you how many times I've lost a game due to this, but It's something you have to live with as protoss.

While many maps have different ramp layouts and entry points, here is the most basic wall you will find, using 2 zealots to block off a normal sized ramp.

[image loading]


It's up to you to use proper judgement in determining the size of your wall. Its worth mentioning that using 2 zealots to block off a ramp, both zealots need to be facing nearly parallell to the bottom of the ramp. If they are facing sideways zergling will frequently slip through and into your base.


Zealots do exceptionally well against Marines and Zerglings in the earlygame, being able to take on at least 4 of each without micro. This expands to hydralisks and marauders, as well as several other units, once they get charge in the late game.

In a 3gate Robo Build, zealots are going to be where the majority of your minerals are spent in the late-game when both players are playing standard. They are extremely cost effective units and counter nearly every light unit in the game.

Stalkers

Generally, I tend to avoid stalkers. While they are useful, they get absolutely wrecked by marauders and hydralisks.

Although the above is true, stalkers are a unit I highly value in the early game, as they are great support units for zealots and they are quick. If your zealots are getting kited by marauders stalkers are essential for getting hits on them as they are running away.

They are also useful if your opponent is going roaches, as they technically do counter them 1:1, but immortals are much more useful for this task.

Immortals
I would argue that this is one of the most undervalued unit in the game. Not because they are underused, but all too many times I see players completely skip them and come to ask 'How the hell did I lose that?.

Immortals do 50 damage to an armored target and 35 to light targets. This basically makes them moving siege tanks, although sacrificing splash damage.

Immortals are absolutely necessary in this build for fending off early terran and zerg attacks. At higher levels it is absolutely necessary to use your immortals to focus on armored targets, especially marauders.

Immortals are also units that suffer from being slow, and, like the zealot, require the support of sentries and stalkers to use them at maximum efficiency.

Immortals are also notable for their extremely durable armor, which reduces all attacks down to 10 damage while their shields are up. This makes them EXTREMELY good vs siege tanks, ultralisks, and stalkers. as well as almost any other armored target in the game. If I sense that my opponent is going siege tank heavy or is teching to ultralisks, immortals are my first priority in every game.

Colossus

While I tend to avoid colossus in my build in most PvT games, Colossus are almost always essential in PvZ and absolutely necessary in PvP.

The reason I don't tend to get Colossus in PvT is that, generally, they are exceptionally good against marine heavy builds, but get wrecked by marauders and vikings, which any terran will have easy access to in any situation.

The only time I've found that colossus are useful in PvT is if I'm absolutely sure that my opponent won't have vikings before I can make my colossus useful.

In PvZ, Colossus are one of the most essential units in the game. They absolutely dominate all zerg ground, especially with forcefields, and are also very good against roaches, with stalker support. However, if your opponent is going very heavy on corruptors it is important to have a way to transition out of colossus and in to high templar.

In PvP it should be said that Colossus are one of the only units in the game without a cost effective counter. When playing standard, a PvP game will generally come down to who has the most colossus.

Observers

There’s not much to say about this unit, except how awesome it is.
I frequently get at least 5 observers in a standard macro game. Starcraft is all about scouting and information, no unit does it better than this one.

If my opponent is denying scouting, having an observer positioned outside of his base will let me know when he's expanding, when he plans on attacking, and a wealth of other information.

Late game, I like to have 1 observer guarding the back of my base, so I am warned of any dropships incoming that much faster.

1 observer I keep lying around in-case my opponent is abusing high ground, especially on maps like Delta Quadrant and Lost Temple. Having sight of the high ground above your natural is essential.

I generally keep an observer outside my opponents base so that I am warned of any incoming attacks, and a general glance at my opponents army composition so I can pick out essential targets and know exactly whats coming.

I keep 1 observer scouting the map for hidden expansions, so I always have tabs on what my opponent is doing and how many bases he has

Finally, I keep an observer with my main army, so that in combat I'm not caught off-guard by any sneaky stealth play.

Many people might call this excessive, but I simply cannot play in the dark. Starcraft is a game about information, and without it, you will always be behind your opponent.

High Templar

HT's are one of the most versatile and essential units in the game, and also one that requires some of the most tech to be useful. Here’s a quick rundown of their skills

Psi Storm
+ Show Spoiler +

Psi storm is one of the most powerful spells in the game. It does 80 damage over 4 seconds to an area roughly the size of a forcefield, and is absolutely essential for dealing with terran and zerg, once he has sufficient corruptor numbers to counter your colossus.

Proper psi storm usage is one of the biggest game-deciders out there right now. It is worth noting that a bad psi-storm can and will damage your own units and possibly kill them, which goes without saying, is bad.


Feedback
+ Show Spoiler +

Feedback is probably an underused spell, but I find it to be probably one of the most useful, especially in the PvT matchup. Feedback allows you to burn the energy of an enemy spellcaster and deal the same amount drained in damage. This is essential when playing someone who goes ghost-heavy, as frequently the outcome of a PvT matchup is a battle between storm and EMP. Feedback is also extremely useful in dealing with Ravens and Banshees, as well as nullifying any medivacs on the field, and can be quickly used to smack a Thor or Battlecruiser for 200 damage.


Phoenix

While phoenix' are not a part of a standard 3 gate robo build, I put them here because 1. They are my favorite unit in the game and 2. They are your only way of effectively dealing with mutalisks.

I cannot stress this enough, using your observer know exactly what tech structure your zerg opponent is getting after he upgrades to a lair

I cannot tell you how many times I've been caught with my pants down because I wasn't watching my opponents base with an observer and it turns out my opponent had 20 mutalisks waiting and his spire hidden in the corner.

If he drops an overseer before getting a tech structure, first, get another observer, then drop a starport because it's highly likely that he is trying to catch you off-guard with mutalisks. If I catch it early enough, hell, I'll drop 2 starports, because if he did go mutalisks it is almost a guaruntee that he won't have any anti-air for a very long time, leaving you free reign to drop every overlord and drone in sight.

Back to phoenix, Phoenix' strength lies in their speed and range, Theoretically allowing you to kite an infinite number of mutalisks without taking any damage from them at all. It is hugely important that you properly micro your phoenix, as without micro they are considerably weaker.

Now, You're probably wondering what this has to do with a robotics facility build. Well, I can say with a straight face that I have never beaten a zerg player going mass-mutalisk without getting phoenix if I opened robotics facility. However, observers from the robotics is absolutely essential for this to work properly.

Chapter 2: Mid Level Strategy

This section goes over some of the higher strategies employed with this build, including timings, when to expand, and transitioning.

Timing and Expanding

Timing is one of the most important pieces of information in a game of starcraft. Knowing exactly if that is a 6 pool or a 10 pool, knowing when your opponent is expanding, and knowing when he is most vulnerable attack is what will determine whether or not you will be winning the game.

The most basic timing to learn, is when to expand.

Generally, an expansion before 6 minutes is considered early, while one at 9 minutes into the game is considered late. It is extremely important to know exactly when your opponent is expanding as well, and this is where observers come in handy.

Honestly, entire guides could be written entirely on this subject alone, but here are a few things to take in to consideration before expanding

1. Is my opponent planning on being aggressive? If the answer is yes, it is probably not a good idea to expand before you have fended off his initial aggression or have secured some kind of advantage over him.

This is best exemplified in the terran build, 2 tech-lab Reactor push. This is one of the most deadly pushes in the game and one I frequently see people complaining about on the forums.

Expanding when your opponent is using this build is generally very dependant on whether he himself has expanded, and whether or not you have an advantage in unit count, or you can catch him out of position with the usage of forcefields.

2. Has my opponent fast expanded? If the answer is yes, I would advise getting at least one immortal out before dropping one of your own, especially on maps with an open natural.

3. Do I have some kind of advantage? This is one of the most situational, and requires a good game sense to truly master. Some basic things to keep in mind are that an expansion costs 400 minerals, so to have an advantage while expanding, you should take in to account how much money of your opponents have you taken away.

One of the easiest ways to explain this is, say your opponent goes for a fast 2 helion harass or a 3-4 helion drop. Say you defend it with no losses, You've essentially put your opponent behind the cost of an expansion. Taking in to account situations like this is one of the most essential things to think about when expanding.

Another advantage would be if you have completely countered your oponnents build. Say your opponent went for a heavy roach build, you already have roaches best counter, the Immortal. Immortals eat roaches for breakfast, its a fact. Going roaches vs a 3 gate robo build is basically saying EXPAND ME.

The final part of an advantageous expand is if you are putting pressure on your opponent and know that he wont be able to extend pressure back for a while. The best example of this would be if you had just won a major battle, have a solid contain on your opponent, or have been successful in dealing damage with harassment utilities.

Transitioning

Now, Its probably obvious that you can't continue making immortals and gateway units all game, It's necessary to tech up to something more powerful. In this section I will explain all of the transitions and their pro's and con's in regards to a 3 gate robo opener.

Robotics Bay

Robotics bay is one of the most straightforward transitions, as it unlocks colossus. Colossus are immensely useful in many situations. Here are a few situations where colossus would be a proper transition.

Barracks Pressure Terran

If you are playing an extremely aggressive terran, templar might be too far away to tech to to be useful. If your observer doesn't scout a starport, it might be safe to get colossus. This, of course, comes to your own judgement.

It's worth mentioning that if your opponent is going exceptionally marine heavy or is trying for some kind of marine rush, colossus are certainly a very viable choice.

Late game terran

Something that a few people might not utilize, but Colossus in addition to high templar absolutely seals the deal vs any kind of bio play from terran.

It is a very costly road to go down, but if you can afford to produce colossus and HT, without any major screw ups, the game is pretty much won.

Zergling pressure

Colossus absolutely rape zerglings, no question. If your opponent is going exceptionally zergling heavy, colossus are a very viable choice.

Hydralisks
Colossus are the most effective unit in dealing with hydralisks, as on creep, it is very hard to get effective storms off.

If your opponent is going mass hydralisk I highly recommend going colossus, as you will force him to get a unit he doesn't want, the corruptor.

However, Once enough corruptors are out, it is essential to be able to transition out of colossus and into templar before you are at a significant disadvantage.

Protoss

In PvP, Colossus have no counter. When starting with a 3 gate robo build i see no reason why you would not then transition into colossus, as they are just so ridiculously good in this match up, no matter what your opponent is getting.

Templar

Templar are generally the second option when it comes to a 3 gate robo opening. They are exceptionally useful, and often the only option, in dealing with the following situations.

Barracks Pressure with Starport

This is generally where most PvT matches end up, and is where templar are the best option for dealing with this.

If you scout that your opponent has the means to nullify colossus, getting templar quickly in addition to the Zealot Charge upgrade is essential. I cannot stress how important it is to have templar in late game PvT.

Late game PvZ

In the same way Vikings wreck Colossus, If your opponent has enough corruptors to nullify colossus play, high templar are generally the best option in dealing with mass ground builds.

It is also worth mentioning that archons are exceptionally good vs mutalisks, though I do not recommend making them for only this purpose.

Stargate Play

Mutalisks
As explained above in the Phoenix section, transitioning into phoenix is generally the only option when it comes to mass mutalisk play from a zerg.

Voidrays

Generally I do not like using voidrays unless I am sure that my opponent won't have the means to counter them, or I have the necessary units to support large numbers of them, something that doesn't happen until the late game.

As a mid game unit I feel that voidrays are the weaker of the 3 options protoss have. Of course, if your opponent is doing something like 3 tech labs, voidrays can win the game right there. It just comes down to scouting.

Chapter 3: Advanced Strategy and Management

Coming soon

Scouting Glossary

Coming soon

Replays

This section will be a repository for replays of mine and player submitted replays of people using this build, as such, it might take quite a while to fill. I plan on updating it as frequently as possible, check back often!

http://screplays.com/replays/hakker/10213 - 1300 Terran, shows exceptional scouting and catching your opponent out of position to ensure victory

http://screplays.com/replays/hakker/10219 Top 200 Zerg, shows proper expansion timing, transitioning, and reacting to scouting information.

http://screplays.com/replays/hakker/10221 1300 Terran

http://screplays.com/replays/hakker/10223 1400 terran, shows advantageous expanding, proper usage of scouting information, as well as catching opponents out of position.

Resources

Coming soon!
Condor Hero
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2931 Posts
September 29 2010 03:45 GMT
#2
good stuff, ive been opening 1 gate robo most games against everybody because 1) i love observers and 2) 1 immortal pretty much stops roach from zerg and 4 gate from protoss
ForDarkness
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia63 Posts
September 29 2010 04:03 GMT
#3
hmm. i really think that this build will struggle to hold a 4gate especially with that late sentry. normally when i use 4 gate i chrono units from the first warp gate then slowly add gates to 4 gates with the 4th gate completing as the warpgate tech is done. usually i will have a proxy pylon near te opponents base by then to reinforce my attack. i actually use the chrono-ed units from the first warp gate and my zealot stalker will most definitely arrive at your base before your 1st stalker is out and reinforcements will soon follow once i uncover your tech route. it is very unlikely you will be able to hold from here as i will be able to put up proxy pylons in your base and start warping in with 4 gatesway. zealots do decently against the immortal and i can micro my stalkers to keep them out of harms way if 1 immortal does pop up. i find it unlikely u will be able to produce more than that cos the game will end by then.

when i do a 1 gate robo then another 2 gates, i prefer to go zealot sentry opting for an earlier 2nd gas i try to keep some chrono to chrono units from 1 gate. if u can hold them at the ramp i think you'd have a much better chance against early aggression. if they get up the ramp and into your base, i think you'll be in for a really hard time as you wont have the unit numbers to compete with a 4warpgate. it takes a little bit of time b4 your army catches up.

just my 2 cents anyway. 1600+ diamond toss here.
PsychedelicMonk
Profile Joined July 2010
27 Posts
September 29 2010 04:09 GMT
#4
I'm more of a 2 Gate Robo man myself because it transitions a little easier, but great post. Just wanted to point out that you said Immortals do 35 damage to light units, but that actually only do 20.
ZapRoffo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5544 Posts
September 29 2010 04:38 GMT
#5
How do you react to marine banshee (+ raven probably) terran? At what point do you say, OK I need a stargate while also not being too late?
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion man
acceLL
Profile Joined September 2010
46 Posts
September 29 2010 04:45 GMT
#6
hmm. i really think that this build will struggle to hold a 4gate especially with that late sentry.


You do know that 3 gate robo has been around forEVER and it's pretty much standard in pvp because of how bad it counters 4 gate right?
Condor Hero
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2931 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-29 05:18:35
September 29 2010 05:18 GMT
#7
On September 29 2010 13:45 acceLL wrote:
Show nested quote +
hmm. i really think that this build will struggle to hold a 4gate especially with that late sentry.


You do know that 3 gate robo has been around forEVER and it's pretty much standard in pvp because of how bad it counters 4 gate right?

damn right. most 4-gaters go heavy on stalkers because they are the most versatile and FF greatly limits zealots. immortals dominate stalkers and it should also be noted that with +1 weapons, immortals 3 shot stalkers.

basically i just feel that immortals and good macro off 2-3 gates holds off every early push, even against terran. of course you gotta micro a bit to make sure your immortals do good damage against armored.

on a sidenote , immortals are the dragoons of sc2. they have retarded AI, theyre freaking slow, they have short range so sometimes they end up shuffling behind stalkers if you dont micro well but they do a ton of dmg in the right situation.
Suchimo
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom10 Posts
September 29 2010 09:03 GMT
#8
How safe is this build vs fast reapers? Your stalker is somewhat delayed. Also, how does it deal with very early pushes such as the Terran 3 unit push?
xiyuema
Profile Joined August 2009
87 Posts
September 29 2010 09:08 GMT
#9
fantastic post mate. replace the liquidpedia protoss entry with this
Far out GG
ForDarkness
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia63 Posts
September 29 2010 10:47 GMT
#10
i never said 4gate counters 3 gate robo. his build is weak against early aggression because of the late sentry. if they paly a harrassing type 4 gate. chrono-ing units out of the earlier 2 gates before the 4 gate is up. you will be struggling to hold. i assure you. if he can hold at the ramp till the immortal comes out its pretty much a free win against 4 gate. but if there are units running rampant in your base before that happens. im not so sure.

that aside, i myself play the 3gate robo with some differences to his build order. i personally feel his build is no doubt quite solid but its weakness is the late timing on the 2nd and 3rd units (stalker and sentry) and it makes this build likely fall prey to early aggression type builds and cheesy allins.
Suchimo
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom10 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-29 11:29:06
September 29 2010 10:56 GMT
#11
I'm going to have to agree with ForDarkness about the early aggression, after trying it out the stalker and sentry come out really late, and it can be quite hard to defend early aggression. With the immortal out you become very safe.

Edit: also when the robo is done I don't remember having enough resources to actually produce out of it - perhaps push it back a bit and make an earlier army?
guitarizt
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1492 Posts
September 29 2010 11:23 GMT
#12
My p is pretty weak as a random player but what about making a sentry on 26 instead of a stalker for pvp? Do I have to do this against any other matchup? If terran does the early one or two marauder attack am I screwed or will the sentry be out in time? If the one sentry does hold I'm assuming I keep chrono'ing sentries out for ff's depending on if they keep trying to poke up the ramp?
“There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.” - Hemingway
Dash27
Profile Joined September 2010
United States51 Posts
September 29 2010 14:13 GMT
#13
Thanks for this guide I'll be re-reading it and trying some of the tactics you suggest. I really do need to work on incorporating more sentries and immortals into my play. I'm with you 100% on observers, I use a lot of them.

Looking forward to checking out the replays!

Constructive feedback, do a search of your guide for "arguably", you use it a lot and kind of unnecessary. Also "you're" is frequently used where you should use your.
Carrier, has arrived.
DavidMcF
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom189 Posts
September 29 2010 14:14 GMT
#14
I basically do this build, except I get my 2nd gate before I get my robo, so my robo is slightly later and my early gateway army is bigger.

I very much like this post though, but could you please fix the you're and your thing haha, it drives me mental when I try to read it!

You're = you are
Your = possessive

Love you xx
Hakker
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1360 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-29 22:03:12
September 29 2010 21:59 GMT
#15
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I went back and fixed a bunch of grammar errors (XD).

I do agree that it might be hard to manage extremely early agression with this build, but like i said, is very flexible. Its all up to your scouting and seeing what you can get away with. Normally i have no trouble pulling it off in almost all situations and if something goes wrong it is flexible enough to fix.

I do plan on adding more about scouting information and what to do with it later. There is much more planned for this guide.
K_osss
Profile Joined June 2010
United States113 Posts
September 29 2010 22:14 GMT
#16
@ Hakker
Good post, and as a fellow P player thanks for putting all the work into this. Just a couple minor things i noticed. On your section about immortals, they actually do 20 dmg to light if i'm not mistaken rather than 35 unupgraded.
Also, I can't confirm that units can do 0 damage in SC2. I know they can do fractional damage though unlike in SC1. This is the case with the Muta.This is in regards to your section of Sentries, which I agree are the critical piece to surviving early pressure as Toss. Thanks again for the great post!
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
September 29 2010 23:03 GMT
#17
Good to see a an active guide where the person has some interest in updating. Most write and forget it.

That said, the BO presented is bad. Anyone that scouts will see you put down a robo asap, you think that is good? Too many things to mention. You just took some build from YABOT or is that actually how you play? Can't tell since having reps at a site where you have to register is not cool. Work on a better build, post it, explain variations, profit.
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
Wiro
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-30 01:38:50
September 30 2010 01:37 GMT
#18
I just wanted to say thank you. I have always used 3 gate robo as my build against p and t as it allows me to go in any direction I need but the way you presented it and the zerg replay helped me so much.

I used to go gateway cyber starport 2 more gateway and rush when I had 5 phoenix but it was playing blindly. Now with the observers first I can see if I need to go that route or if a 1 base roach play is coming. It really really helped me a lot. Especially the double stargate as soon as you see the spire, great stuff.

Thanks again man.
Tasteless > Day9
habermas
Profile Joined June 2010
United Kingdom304 Posts
September 30 2010 01:51 GMT
#19
Nice guide. Got some questions though. Why 3 gates robo instead of 2 gates robo? Isn't this all-in? Also why second gas so late? And why robo before warp gate tech? Also how do you deal with super early terran aggression with late stalker and sentry? Thanks.
TwentyAPM
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17 Posts
September 30 2010 02:38 GMT
#20
Guide is well done, not taking away from that. In my experience and others have posted the downside of the very very early robo is early aggression (used against you) and I find when I robo that fast it does come out very quick but I am unable to utilize it well since by the time it's done building my eco is still slow and the stalker/sentry have eaten my monies. I prefer a slightly later robo *not much!*

I feel like this guide is great, and you should add some variations and alternatives in the build section of the guide. You post in replies how it's dependent on scouting etc... but many who read this forum and see a build are doing exactly as the build says because they are attempting to learn.. if they already knew how to react to everything, they wouldn't be here using the guide. I don't feel the safer robo (2 gate first) or just later after stalker or warpgate is better, I just feel it should be listed as most who come will be very interested in that part of the guide.
GeodizL
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia3 Posts
September 30 2010 03:35 GMT
#21
Great guide - I mainly just 4 gate in most of my games but that's starting to get a bit boring plus I usually have some trouble doing it against other Protoss so I might give this a go in my next match.

Also, what are your thoughts on getting a Forge and upgrading your melee units? Should this only be done mid/late game when you have a good eco?
Wartortle
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia504 Posts
September 30 2010 04:37 GMT
#22
thanks, love this build so far.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 30 2010 07:09 GMT
#23
Thanks for putting it into writing how the 3gate robo opening operates. Cheese-safe with proper practice and a great midgame and endgame in all the matchups. Three cheers!
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
September 30 2010 07:34 GMT
#24
3 gate robo is in most cases an allin build, with the exception of PvP.

In TvP, 3 gate robo basically forces you to engage the terran army, because if you don't and he expanded, you're at an economic disadvantage. Likewise, if you ever want to expand vs an aggressive terran, you have to engage him before even laying an expansion down. It's a build where you're going to have to make that first engagement count and if you don't win it you will lose the game. That's why it's an allin build.

In ZvP, 3 gate robo vs any FE zerg forces you into an allin push because zerg's eco left untouched will skyrocket compared to yours since your expo is either really late, or not even started. If you don't end the game or set zerg back right there it's really hard to come back economically.

PvP is different though. P simply can't blind FE, and there's many "allin" builds which completely slaughter greedy play. 3 gate robo is really strong vs 4 warpgate, the most common type of push. Even a super early 4 warpgate can be delayed with a sentry and beaten after reinforcements arrive. Because a 4 warpgate is easily scoutable (no early 2nd gas, chronoboosts on warpgate), a 3 gate robo build can be used reactively. It is not an allin in this case, since you are ahead even if you don't engage.

However, 3 gate robo is fairly weak to a few other builds, namely stargate builds, but they also are weak vs early expand builds. It is possible to do 1/2 gate expand vs 3 gate robo play and hold it with appropriate micro. In this case, 3 gate robo IS an allin because you're so significantly behind in economy if you don't do economic damage.

For this reason, I don't think 3 gate robo is a build worth delving into with regards to PvZ and PvT. it's limited and allin and not a good build to use as standard play. You see a lot of players either early expand from 1/2 gates, or go for a safe 2 gate robo play into expansion if they see aggression. Only vs a truly allin play by the other player is a 3rd gate a good idea.

PvP is where 3 gate robo needs serious analysis. I'm not well enough versed in PvP to say much more about it than I already have. I'd like to hear the analysis of a better player in that regard. (*cough* HuK *cough*)
Half man, half bear, half pig.
ionize
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Ireland399 Posts
September 30 2010 16:55 GMT
#25
I used my time at work today to have a read. Nice guide man, really enjoyed it and learned a few new things. Also the song rocks! :D Thumbs up and keep it coming so the guide is 100% some time soon.
I just love video games, what's your excuse?
Eduro
Profile Joined July 2010
United States88 Posts
September 30 2010 19:02 GMT
#26
Nice thread. Helped me cut some of the fat off my 3gate robo build/strategy. I've won my last 5 games and I find it really helpful against terran. That early observer gives you great information and at a point where you are still really flexible as far as where you will go from there. I haven't tested it against zerg much yet though so I am a bit nervous about that as well as proxies but those require scouting an usually a change of plans anyways.
Weird
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States832 Posts
September 30 2010 19:24 GMT
#27
Very informative post, well done, I look forward to your future additions to this.
drsnuggles
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Korea (South)362 Posts
September 30 2010 19:26 GMT
#28
Try to upload the replays somewhere where one doesn't have to register to be able to download it. Otherwise, nice guide, you should think about adding it to the Liquipedia
anathema
Profile Joined September 2010
Poland20 Posts
October 01 2010 12:49 GMT
#29
On October 01 2010 04:26 drsnuggles wrote:
Try to upload the replays somewhere where one doesn't have to register to be able to download it. Otherwise, nice guide, you should think about adding it to the Liquipedia


I can only second that, would love to see the reps too.
NETRAT
Profile Joined July 2010
Belarus180 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-01 14:06:45
October 01 2010 13:54 GMT
#30
Immortals do 50 damage to an armored target and 35 to light targets
what? it was always 20 + 30 vs armored, when did they get 35 vs light?
comparison to siege tank is at least inaccurate
zerglings and marines wreck immo, they are nessesary only if opponent goes heavy on roaches maradeurs or stalkers, even then zealot + stalker deals fairly well (2 stalkers = 1 immortal cost&supply)
Immortals are also notable for their extremely durable armor, which reduces all attacks down to 10 damage while their shields are up. This makes them EXTREMELY good vs siege tanks, ultralisks, and stalkers. as well as almost any other armored target in the game
meh, shield doesnt make them good vs stalkers, it's damage bonus to armored units makes them good(2 stalker deal ~14 dps to immortal shields and 18 dps to hull, while immortal deals 34 dps to stalker, so shields are not that good vs stalkers)
In PvP it should be said that Colossus are one of the only units in the game without a cost effective counter. When playing standard, a PvP game will generally come down to who has the most colossus.
i think it's stupid that protoss doesn't have decent antiair units (phoenix are only good vs mutas and banshee), so in sutuation where terran can pump out some vikings and zerg is supposed to get corruptors, protoss have no responce

i'm also deviating from pure gateway builds to 3gate-robo lately
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
October 01 2010 14:57 GMT
#31
Nice post!

One typo though, when talking about countering hidden mutas you said something about dropping some starports. *stargates
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
SONE
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada839 Posts
October 01 2010 15:32 GMT
#32
Sweet stuff here, but damn having to sign up to dl the replays T_T lazyy! oh well here we go
rsvp
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States2266 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-01 18:24:49
October 01 2010 17:08 GMT
#33
Great effort, it looks like you put a lot of time into writing this guide. I especially like the incorporation of screenshots (and would love to see even more). 3 gate robo is probably the standard build that is useful in all 3 matchups that all protoss players should be familiar with, so I'm really glad that you're putting this out there.

With that being said, as pointed out by many others before me, you kinda ruined your credibility here by claiming that immortals (a key unit in this build) do 35 damage to light units. Many other things you claim are also simply not true. For example, unupgraded marines doing 6 damage a shot will NOT do 1 damage against +3 armor GS'ed zealots - you're right in that you can't do 0 damage but it's possible to do fractions of damage. Also, 1 zealot will not be able to single-handedly beat 4 marines or 4 zerglings, even without micro on both sides.

In addition, many of your other points that you strongly suggest are merely your own opinions, and are not so much facts as you imply they are. For example, you claim that phoenix are the only way of effectively dealing with mutas (not true), or that you shouldn't expand in the face of aggression (PvT 1 gate fe is actually a decent counter to the common 2 tech lab 1 reactor rush). Being your guide, it's ok to give your personal preferences, but you shouldn't state them as if they are always the best and only route to go.

I feel like you also contradicted yourself several times through the course of the guide. You talk about avoiding colossus in PvT, but then give several examples of why colossus are great in PvT. You mention that phoenix is the only option against mutas, but then you say that archons are also exceptional vs mutas.

Overall, this isn't a bad guide, and with some work has the potential to be a great one. Keep up the good work.
Triky
Profile Joined September 2010
Peru99 Posts
October 01 2010 18:21 GMT
#34
thanks for that guide
my life for pylo!
sikyon
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1045 Posts
October 01 2010 18:24 GMT
#35
On September 29 2010 14:18 Condor Hero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 29 2010 13:45 acceLL wrote:
hmm. i really think that this build will struggle to hold a 4gate especially with that late sentry.


You do know that 3 gate robo has been around forEVER and it's pretty much standard in pvp because of how bad it counters 4 gate right?

damn right. most 4-gaters go heavy on stalkers because they are the most versatile and FF greatly limits zealots. immortals dominate stalkers and it should also be noted that with +1 weapons, immortals 3 shot stalkers.

basically i just feel that immortals and good macro off 2-3 gates holds off every early push, even against terran. of course you gotta micro a bit to make sure your immortals do good damage against armored.

on a sidenote , immortals are the dragoons of sc2. they have retarded AI, theyre freaking slow, they have short range so sometimes they end up shuffling behind stalkers if you dont micro well but they do a ton of dmg in the right situation.


Immortals get their asses kicked by a player with decent micro who can FF to cut your army in half, trapping your immortals behind your zealots while your opponent's army cuts you down piecemeal. Or even just traps your immortals up against the opponent's zealots. Immortals are only effective if your opponent doesn't have sentries.

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