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[G]One Base Carrier - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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bokeevboke
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Singapore1674 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-25 16:54:05
September 25 2010 16:53 GMT
#21
I have lost to a carrier rush. The game was quite long on 3-4 bases each. Lots of nice micro from P on Xelnaga Caverns.

Hoping to see it in Funday Monday show
Its grack
mskaa
Profile Joined May 2010
Denmark155 Posts
September 25 2010 17:01 GMT
#22
+1 air gives interceptors 20% damage increase, is that not a significant effect?
DocM
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States212 Posts
September 25 2010 17:11 GMT
#23
I think carriers can be effective if you can stay alive long enough to get +3 attack upgrade. (not often honestly). you have to really turtle effectively and/or be aggressive with your first few carriers to survive that long.
TehForce
Profile Joined July 2010
1072 Posts
September 25 2010 17:46 GMT
#24
this doesn't work on higher levels. i played about 10 games against 1300+ enemies trying to 1-base carrier rush but you have absolutely no chance against a good player.
NesTea <3
Protoss_Carrier
Profile Joined September 2010
414 Posts
September 25 2010 17:53 GMT
#25
On September 26 2010 02:01 mskaa wrote:
+1 air gives interceptors 20% damage increase, is that not a significant effect?


It does have a significant effect. However, my build's first push only has one carrier.

One carrier's DPS = 26.67
Upgraded DPS = 32

So basically I gained 5.33 DPS for 100/100.

Meanwhile, if I upgrade ground troops, for 8 stalker and 7 lots I've gained over 18 DPS for 100/100 (don't quote me on this, source is the DPS chart on TL and I just did a quick calculation in my head.)

Or alternatively, for 100/100 (I am gas starved) I can get 2 stalkers out for a boost of 15.28 DPS and 160 hit point worth more of fodder.

I understand that people have always advocated getting air weapon level 1, but for the first push it have not a whole lot of effect really and even for harassment it doesn't not kill probes faster. Therefore I recommend getting it if your first push fails.

All told, this kind of mathematical refinement is needed to really make this a strong, viable build.
Carrier has arrived.
Protoss_Carrier
Profile Joined September 2010
414 Posts
September 25 2010 17:56 GMT
#26
On September 26 2010 02:46 TehForce wrote:
this doesn't work on higher levels. i played about 10 games against 1300+ enemies trying to 1-base carrier rush but you have absolutely no chance against a good player.


All I know is that against someone at my own level I can defeat them comfortably with this build. I imagine stronger timing pushes at higher level before completion of carrier will result in loss at higher level, but I really wish more protoss strategies are derived.

At the moment, if opponent scout fleet beacon they assume speed void ray and counter accordingly. I hope to see one day that other races, upon discovery of fleet beacon, will have to consider countering all three tech unlocked by the beacon: MS, speed void and carrier.

This game can use more diversity, especially in PvP.
Carrier has arrived.
DrGreen
Profile Joined July 2010
Poland708 Posts
September 25 2010 21:23 GMT
#27
Seems good in PvP (if you can defend 2 gate robo push), not sure about PvZ and probably useless in PvT(say hello to vikings, which counter every fleet beacon tech).
Protoss_Carrier
Profile Joined September 2010
414 Posts
September 25 2010 21:45 GMT
#28
On September 26 2010 06:23 DrGreen wrote:
Seems good in PvP (if you can defend 2 gate robo push), not sure about PvZ and probably useless in PvT(say hello to vikings, which counter every fleet beacon tech).


viking does not hard counter carrier when she's properly supported, try it out. I must say the most success I have is actually in PvT because viking really is paper plane once you focus fire.
Carrier has arrived.
N3rV[Green]
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1935 Posts
September 25 2010 21:55 GMT
#29
My personal preference for carrier play stems off of a 1-gate FE. (only vs T really)

After my nexus is up I add to the gateway count (up to around 6) then throw down 2 stargates with my natural gases.

First carrier normally helps with any kind of first push that comes from the T and after I have my 3rd and 4th making I start up the mothership xD

then simply build carriers and zeals (charge is pretty good to have xD) and recall in the back of his main. Sooooo much fun xD
Never fear the darkness, Bran. The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong.
gr8ape
Profile Joined July 2008
Canada302 Posts
September 25 2010 22:03 GMT
#30
Ive played a bit with carriers and the most effective use of them was +1 or +2 attack with 3-4 carriers max, and a very healthy gateway army

more carriers than that is not worth the cost/wait

however 3-4 carriers boost your ground army significantly
Protoss_Carrier
Profile Joined September 2010
414 Posts
September 26 2010 00:58 GMT
#31
Just went home and did some test, it seems like air weapon +1 and ground weapon both are must, because doesn't matter what the math says, it's still important to have it.
Carrier has arrived.
Protoss_Carrier
Profile Joined September 2010
414 Posts
September 28 2010 03:41 GMT
#32
I been trying another variation where I show this strat to the opponent, but if I scout a lack of expansion and full turtling mode for terran, I just stop producing any combat unit for 3 minute and do some crazy expand, and by the time t realized the crazy all in never came hes already way behind
Carrier has arrived.
sikyon
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1045 Posts
September 28 2010 05:37 GMT
#33
I've lost to a 1 base carrier as zerg where I just massed pure hydra. His attacks never went anywhere since hydras can kite on creep and can quickly kill interceptors en masse but I forgot to keep droning and I eventually lost 2base to 2 base. It was mostly the surprise.

I'd like to try this in PvP. But problem with PvT in my opinion here is that yes, carriers can trade 1:3 with vikings but terran can swap reactored starports and outproduce the carriers. Resource wise you can come out even but not in build time.
Protoss_Carrier
Profile Joined September 2010
414 Posts
September 29 2010 20:31 GMT
#34
oh yeah, does anyone know if the interceptors still get autorepaired when they go back to fighter bay like in BW?
Carrier has arrived.
Roaming
Profile Joined May 2010
United States239 Posts
September 29 2010 21:19 GMT
#35
First off, if you're going to post a guide, realize that it will be read as is. You shouldn't have to edit basic things, you should just be adding more content.

Perhaps it would have done you some good to write something up in word, BEFORE deciding to post it on the forums. I get the feeling this was written in the post box for some reason. Hastily.

At any rate.. I would highly suggest focusing on one match-up. I seriously doubt the same build order works for all match-ups.

And if you read the other thread about carriers on from funday monday, you'll see someone had carriers out in 7 minutes, with a similar number of zealots.

Aside from the early stalkers to defend reaper, deny scouting probe, stop roach, or whatever... why are you still building stalkers? Also the single phoenix is rather useless. I believe you would do better with a void ray before carrier. The combo of zealots, 1 or 2 stalkers and 1 void ray plus 1 carrier a full two minutes before you get your carrier out... makes me think you really should search the forums before posting a guide.

Btw i have this awesome rush. I build a gateway. Then a gateway. Then a gateway. Then a gateway. And im pretty sure it kills you before 9 minutes.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
September 29 2010 21:36 GMT
#36
Often times the carrier is the last man standing, especially if he fights with workers etc... That's when the 1+ does it business...

Then again I have no experience with this, just a theory
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
September 29 2010 21:39 GMT
#37
wait... interceptors get repaired in bw? I never knew that and I thought I knew everything about that game when it comes to mechanics.

I actually have trouble believing this even though I just read it in lp
Jayrod
Profile Joined August 2010
1820 Posts
September 29 2010 22:17 GMT
#38
On September 30 2010 06:19 Roaming wrote:
First off, if you're going to post a guide, realize that it will be read as is. You shouldn't have to edit basic things, you should just be adding more content.

Perhaps it would have done you some good to write something up in word, BEFORE deciding to post it on the forums. I get the feeling this was written in the post box for some reason. Hastily.

At any rate.. I would highly suggest focusing on one match-up. I seriously doubt the same build order works for all match-ups.

And if you read the other thread about carriers on from funday monday, you'll see someone had carriers out in 7 minutes, with a similar number of zealots.

Aside from the early stalkers to defend reaper, deny scouting probe, stop roach, or whatever... why are you still building stalkers? Also the single phoenix is rather useless. I believe you would do better with a void ray before carrier. The combo of zealots, 1 or 2 stalkers and 1 void ray plus 1 carrier a full two minutes before you get your carrier out... makes me think you really should search the forums before posting a guide.

Btw i have this awesome rush. I build a gateway. Then a gateway. Then a gateway. Then a gateway. And im pretty sure it kills you before 9 minutes.


I dunno if quoting the daily thread lends much credence to your perspective. Great you can get a carrier in 7 minutes, but since you have 5 zealots and 1 stalker or whatever you get crapped on by literally everything else. I think he wanted an army that can hold off pushes while getting to a carrier, so his aim was probably quite a bit higher than the funday monday goons. I'm not saying its a perfect guide or anything, but I think if you're going to bother criticizing someone that has put some effort into sharing his ideas with the community that you do it with a little more tact and actually put some thought into your own post. Zealot/carrier is more annoying than powerful while zealot/stalker/carrier with a sentry for guardian shield might actually be powerful at that juncture. Try to think outside of the box a bit and ditch that X > Z mentality.


Ill use PvT as a main example
I think its crucial to the idea behind this build to get a phoenix as your first unit out of your stargate unless you're absolutely sure a push is coming that you might need a VR for. 1) Phoenix is the best unit for getting information from terran in the protoss arsenal, it will see before any other unit whether or not you can continue with the carrier or if there is a threat that stargate tech can't deal with. 2) A scouting phoenix isn't enough of a threat to justify a switch to vikings from a terran player... a void ray CAN be, but still might not even prompt that response. The drawback to the void ray is its slow movement makes it a shitty scout. Unless you have a great plan for some early aggression involving a void ray its better used as a defensive unit...AND, unless you have some reason to believe that you will need a void ray to defend against some threat, you wont need it. The phoenix scout will answer the question of whether or not you need a void ray and since phoenix openers are safe against all the terran openers. You're essentially telling him to build a more expensive unit that is worse at fulfilling the purpose of the quick stargate. You will have time to build a void ray if you need it unless the push is already on its way, in which case I dont see how this differs from a normal phoenix opener.

I too, want to know how this would hold a 4-gate and the answer might simply be that it cant. If it can't, the OPs ideas MIGHT work in the other MUs. Even with the 4 gate issue my question is thus: Even if it can't hold a 4-gate how is it ANY different than a phoenix opener against that threat? Can a phoenix opener old a 4-gate? Can the scouting you get from the first phoenix give you the information you need to respond to the 4-gate you see? I just feel like this build looks very standard except for a couple things... 1) Obviously you're getting a fleet beacon and 2) you stop workers at 26, which actually probably protects you more against 1 base aggression than a standard build with a midgame outlook. Cutting probes is my biggest problem with the OP's build, but the ideas behind the build makes sense.

@OP... can you make it work without probe cutting... so you can expand with your push? Up until what point is this build standard stargate play? In other words, maybe you should just start with the phoenix scout and decide if the carrier push will be optimal based on what you see. If not optimal, will you be able to do some other type of play? Maybe stick to phoenix and throw down a 3rd gateway to defend against 4-gate pushes?

I dont like any builds that try to skip straight to tier 3. I think they assume alot, but why not just say "I like stargate openers and understand the power of an early carrier" From there its all adaptation. Carrier might not be optimal, but if you can recognize when it is then you have a tool to add to your arsenal.
aqui
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Germany1023 Posts
September 29 2010 22:25 GMT
#39
On September 26 2010 02:46 TehForce wrote:
this doesn't work on higher levels. i played about 10 games against 1300+ enemies trying to 1-base carrier rush but you have absolutely no chance against a good player.

eat your words :D
Roaming
Profile Joined May 2010
United States239 Posts
September 29 2010 22:39 GMT
#40
Great you can get a carrier in 7 minutes, but since you have 5 zealots and 1 stalker or whatever you get crapped on by literally everything else.
You obviously didn't read too far into my post before you got wood and starting replying. As i said he had a similar number of zealots (around 10 with a couple stalkers).

Furthermore, I believe both builds were played in 1000+ diamond. Please explain to me how suggesting the OP search out a build which is a full 2 minutes faster with similar results is a problem in your eyes? I'd go on but your post is epic and wrong.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
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