|
On September 30 2010 06:19 Roaming wrote:
First off, if you're going to post a guide, realize that it will be read as is. You shouldn't have to edit basic things, you should just be adding more content.
Perhaps it would have done you some good to write something up in word, BEFORE deciding to post it on the forums. I get the feeling this was written in the post box for some reason. Hastily.
At any rate.. I would highly suggest focusing on one match-up. I seriously doubt the same build order works for all match-ups.
And if you read the other thread about carriers on from funday monday, you'll see someone had carriers out in 7 minutes, with a similar number of zealots.
Aside from the early stalkers to defend reaper, deny scouting probe, stop roach, or whatever... why are you still building stalkers? Also the single phoenix is rather useless. I believe you would do better with a void ray before carrier. The combo of zealots, 1 or 2 stalkers and 1 void ray plus 1 carrier a full two minutes before you get your carrier out... makes me think you really should search the forums before posting a guide.
Btw i have this awesome rush. I build a gateway. Then a gateway. Then a gateway. Then a gateway. And im pretty sure it kills you before 9 minutes.
The reason why I edited is because I've been continuously experimenting with this build and actually tried void ray opener, and it does not work.
void ray does not win me game that I would have won, but costed me game that if scouted, I would not have lost.
I don't know how well this would hold up as a standard build (most likely not, because anything slower than fast colossus gets rofl stomped in pro tournment as standard play, but on the other hand this isn't too slow comparing to standard build).
I do intend for this to be a pretty solid build that lower league player can use. The combo of fairly standard stalker and cannon make it not so bad against early aggression (I definitely held off the 2 marauder 1 rine 1 SCV rush with cannon + 1 goon), it all comes down to cannon placement and micro, really. Availability of phoenix (which gets to the opponent base faster than OB I have a feeling) make scouting a breeze and graviton beam help a lot while void ray can be non-cost effective if focus fired upon. Basically I feel this is a pretty solid build if executed properly for bronze to low-mid diamond.
I mean, as for bronze, I actually taught my gf this build and she rofled stomped through. She never played sc before.
|
On September 30 2010 07:25 aqui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 02:46 TehForce wrote:
this doesn't work on higher levels. i played about 10 games against 1300+ enemies trying to 1-base carrier rush but you have absolutely no chance against a good player. eat your words :D
What, Huk only did it against Tarson and Brat_ok, how good are they 
|
though i dislike this kind of plain vanilla build (i play zerg ^^), this is an interesting post including detailed timings etc. .. no need for the "super pros" to march in and mob the OP.
|
I like that you have your cool little strategy, but it's a 1 base all in and I don't like that.
People should focus on learning the game and not using these strategies that will eventually become useless once everyone is prepared for them.
If you don't suprise your opponent with this, he will be prepared and you won't do much.
|
This is like a voidray build but worse.
This may be the best strat for what you want, but this can't win above low diamond with micro alone.
There's only one viable advantage for knowing this build. If you are ahead early-ish and are put into a situation where he wont let you convert your lead (& he's also sitting in his base), you could go this route (but also others).
You are basically crippling yourself for a fun and singular unit, so it better be focking good by itself. Carriers are not supposed to be by themselves. Sure it's nice to have a carrier against a lot of other protoss units but you lose more than you gain from an additional carrier or two because of all the map control and teching.
The same that applies for a voidray does not apply for carrier. SC2 voidray is like a beefed-up wraith in BW TvT. SC2 carrier is like a beefed up battlecruiser in BW TvT. Tech switching to carrier with that intent shows a lack of familiarity with sc2, but that's understandable given the age of the game. Use voidrays and convert your advantage into something else.
If you want to improve your game instantly, approach matches with the greatest hesitation to tech and an even greater desire to win. You will learn so much.
Ask Stork about carrier teching
|
On September 30 2010 09:14 StimCraft wrote:
This is like a voidray build but worse.
This may be the best strat for what you want, but this can't win above low diamond with micro alone.
There's only one viable advantage for knowing this build. If you are ahead early-ish and are put into a situation where he wont let you convert your lead (& he's also sitting in his base), you could go this route (but also others).
You are basically crippling yourself for a fun and singular unit, so it better be focking good by itself. Carriers are not supposed to be by themselves. Sure it's nice to have a carrier against a lot of other protoss units but you lose more than you gain from an additional carrier or two because of all the map control and teching.
The same that applies for a voidray does not apply for carrier. SC2 voidray is like a beefed-up wraith in BW TvT. SC2 carrier is like a beefed up battlecruiser in BW TvT. Tech switching to carrier with that intent shows a lack of familiarity with sc2, but that's understandable given the age of the game. Use voidrays and convert your advantage into something else.
If you want to improve your game instantly, approach matches with the greatest hesitation to tech and an even greater desire to win. You will learn so much.
Ask Stork about carrier teching
So I been using this as a standard build, and I present you with......
Four Gate Domination Special!
Those are two replays, first one from laddering and second one from a 1000pt diamond, arguably not the best player, but so am I. On a similar skill level I was able to hold off their 4 gate.
Replay 1: PvP, metalpolis, 4 gate
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1625
I got a sentry as soon as I realized that 4 gate was coming. As you can see, one carrier literally held off the 4 gate rush. Speaking of hero carrier.
Lesson learned: 1 carrier + 2 cannon can defend against a 4 gate rush
Also this is a pretty crazy come back game.
Replay 2 PvP
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1626
This guy actually 5 gated me, and I got a sentry as soon as I realized what's going on. Some perfect sentry micro and some shitty carrier micro later (lost 2 carriers, including one with 15 kills on it)
I believe each of my carrier has at least 10 kills, more like 15. that's 1500+ mineral and 500+ gas for each of those carrier. Speaking of cost effectiveness.
Reason why I think this works ESPECIALLY well against 4 gate (not as well as robo)
1. Your fodder unit (stalkers) don't die as fast
2. Stalkers are terrible against carriers.
3. PvP build wise, your carrier can come out even faster because scouting is not needed. Carrier + stalker + sentry + cannon can handle pretty much anything P has before 8 minutes. Besides initial scouting to make sure your opponent aren't proxying, that's pretty much it.
The only PvP build I have trouble with is fast colossus into blink stalkers.
|
Refallen (1400~P) pulled something like this off in a custom game vT yesterday. 1base carrier -> 2 base carrier/mothership.
I'm not sure if T just played awful but it was pretty hilarious all the same.
|
Just did another test in the unit tester. I let the carrier attack a mothership without autobuilding interceptors (interceptor die in two attack from mothership, 8 attack from stalker. Interceptor DO NOT have shields.
Now, If I do the interceptors recall trick by pressing S and move away, interceptor still die in 8 shot even after going back to drone bay. However, if I recall and wait for 10 minutes, interceptors seem to be repaired.
|
Ya I did this twice last night vs. Terran and then zerg. Terran went tank/marine zerg tried for mutaling... crushed both... the terran push came a bit late but he was already in my base before my carrier came out. However, my build was all kinds of messed up and the carrier came out almost a full minute after it did in the zerg game. Vs. Terran my first carrier had 38 kills, vs. zerg the first one had 61 kills. Its definitely fun, but it doesnt feel like it could transition smoothly into midgame. I think on the right maps (Meta, DO, LT, Delta) it would be incredibly difficult to stop this build without playing defensively (like building some counter to carriers). On the right maps, the carrier player has a big micro advantage because... well... they can fly.
In YABOT afterwards I did a weird variation that seemed to make all the gas fit perfectly once the first carrier went out. I went 9 pylon 10 gas 13 or 14 gate (cant remember) and 13 or 14 gas
|
Another unit tester investigation on phoenix vs. viking
I always gets one phoneix agaisnt viking (phx = 150-100, viking = 150-75)
1v1, phoneix actually defeat viking with 20 hp left, and if 1+ weapon upgrade is used, with 60hp left.
Therefore, I recommend a phoenix to be built for scouting in PvT.
|
This is so amateur. Vikings out range phoenix and out micro them rather easily. Phoenix are much better scouts and shouldn't try to fight Vikings. And its so funny you're fighting so hard to be right.
VR > Phoenix
|
On October 01 2010 15:23 Roaming wrote:
This is so amateur. Vikings out range phoenix and out micro them rather easily. Phoenix are much better scouts and shouldn't try to fight Vikings. And its so funny you're fighting so hard to be right.
VR > Phoenix
Try it in the unit tester. You may be surprised. Also phoenix can outrun viking, which means viking cannot kite phoenix if you commit an attack. This is of course assume there's no ground forces supporting each unit.
|
Some new observations
1. My original build is too much on the safe side and may not hit a good timing window. I been experimenting with opting for a sentry first instead of stalker and lay down a cannon at the same time. Sentry + cannon is effective against very early pushes (like the 3 marauder + 4 marines push).
Additionally, I also get wrap gate after stargate, as a result my carrier now comes out at 8:30 instead of 9:30, I will play around more and post an updated BO. Of course this now requires pretty good force field and is not good for novice.
2. Nydus worm is all the rage now. I used to not build anything against Z and just head straight to carrier, but now I would get a phoenix first so you can get rid of the spotting overlords.
|
Hey,
I have read this topic 2 weeks ago and was using this carrier strat for that time, started from costume up to some diamond league.
I must say, that i have a high sucess rate with it in 1000 diamond, espacilly in PVZ and PVT, i find it extremly usefull against hydralisks build or even early muta, not talking about early MM builds which it rapes very easily.
The carrier just rip everything with those low hp pretty fast, and my micro does the rest.
Only problem im realy having is in PVP, since its much harder to take down P units due to their high ammount of HP & shields.
and hes ground army is usually bigger in terms of stalkers or zealots, which take mine before the carrier get much kills.
|
dude I dont mean to be a dick or anything but I played against a guy only yesterday who tried this build and since I only read this thread today I find it funny that i was able to beat this guy so easily.
I dont know maybe that guy just wasnt doing it right or something but I owned him pretty hard. I hellion harassed him early on with okay micro and by the time he came with his push i had 10-12 marines 8 hellions 2 banshees and 2 vikings on the way.
Banshees owned stalkers.
Hellions owned zealots
rines held of carrier until vikings arived.
At that point it was pretty much gg. I still had both banshees 3 hellions and a few marines + new units that had been waiting + a near suturated expansion and minerals to spare.
I dont even play toss and I dont think this is very effective. Not against terran anyway. Too many things have to go right and too much resources get spent early on to get only 1 unit. Im not at home right now but i can post a replay later if you want
|
On October 04 2010 16:22 eu.exodus wrote:
dude I dont mean to be a dick or anything but I played against a guy only yesterday who tried this build and since I only read this thread today I find it funny that i was able to beat this guy so easily.
I dont know maybe that guy just wasnt doing it right or something but I owned him pretty hard. I hellion harassed him early on with okay micro and by the time he came with his push i had 10-12 marines 8 hellions 2 banshees and 2 vikings on the way.
Banshees owned stalkers.
Hellions owned zealots
rines held of carrier until vikings arived.
At that point it was pretty much gg. I still had both banshees 3 hellions and a few marines + new units that had been waiting + a near suturated expansion and minerals to spare.
I dont even play toss and I dont think this is very effective. Not against terran anyway. Too many things have to go right and too much resources get spent early on to get only 1 unit. Im not at home right now but i can post a replay later if you want
replay would be nice. I never faced anything like that, and a lot of people make the mistake of overbuilding stalkers. I can't emphasis how important it is to mass zealots.
|
I updated with one new replay and some new info I've gathered from play with this build all day everyday. Also, carrier sucks against zerg now that I am playing better Zs, so don't use this build against Z!
Zerg can actually do a wall in with 3 evo + queen and spine crawler that completely nullify this build, not to mention the mutalisks.
|
One more rep added
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1834
This is another replay of my one base carrier beating a diamond 1100pt opponent. As you can see he went with 3 gate robo.
I made a few blunder in this build (blocking in my own sentry) and was behind from the get go. But I managed to pull back and won based on pure micro as well as a clutch forcefield that trapped his immortal.
Overall a very action filled game. Guy also left with GGing.
|
Updated with some of the finest terran tears.
So since I been having some really good results with this build against T I decided to off race as Z. I was of course rolled over by MMM because I was not experienced enough with fungal. I asked for a rematch, and my opponent simply went "nah". I explained that I was off racing and main P, then he proceeded to say "P is too easy try I only play TvT". He then explained that MMM is so good that there is no counter to it.
Well, I beg to differ, and told him I have a strat pretty much hard counter MMM. He of course laughed at this and said that tester got rolled by MMM. I replied that tester never did this build (why would a toss hero n00b cheese like this?)
He reluctantly agreed to a rematch, and I got to witness some of the finest terran QQ. He actually put me on ignored list after the match.
Guy's APM is roughly 3 times mine and he DID scout my stargate AND fleet beacon and laid down missile turrets. Unfortunately MMM just wasn't enough in his case. I imagine you have a very small timing window to scout and pump viking. I know that 2 viking isn't enough against this build.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/2046
|
Well played, but I want to bring up some concerns with your replay against the Terran. It was a blind build order win because he went 1 rax FE. You didn't even scout him once in which case a simple cloaked banshee would've man handled your econ maybe to make halt carrier (or at least graviton) production.
He didn't even get medivacs out so it's not a win against MMM, but against MM. Also, close positions helped incredibly as close air or cross spawns would've slowed down your push enough for him to get more units out.
Also, ATo doesn't play TvT...its his worst match up. He was obvi trolling you, but it's not like you would know otherwise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
