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![[image loading]](http://www.starcraft2tactics.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/protoss-carrier2.jpg)
This is only good against T. It's not countered by banshee rush (see replay 3034) because there is enough time to build a robo after phoenix scout
Latest update: 11/3
Most likely my last time updating with replays. I am a busy medical student and my level of play certainly isn't going to get much better than this (low-mid diamond)
Included are two replays played against the same opponent, which I lost to with a 2 gate robo build
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/3033
He laughed upon spotting the carrier. This is the usual first impression
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/3034
We decided to rm again, with him knowing me doing this build. Instead of more viking he opted for a banshee rush, which was scouted and failed.
Take home lesson: while many protoss claim that robo is a must, it's possible to scout banshee rush in time with phoenix.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/2112
Blink stalker has map control and is an effective counter.
I am not doing this as a part of Day 9 exercise. In fact, I been doing this for a long time, ever since I first touched the control of a carrier 12 years ago, I could not stop. Today I am going to present you the very precise timing I've deduced, allowing a carrier push arrive at enemy base at approximately 8min well backed up by ground forces. I suscept this strategy is a good counter of the prevalent banshee raven marauder play seen in GSL lately.
This is a micro-intensive build
First off, replays.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1524
This is a PVP game I played on scrap station. I have well abused the carrier mobility, shutting down a drop as well as reducing enemy stalker numbers.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1525
This is a PvZ game, hydra does not work aainst carrier
More Replays
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1540
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1541
First game I lost to a Z
Second game I won a PvP on scrap station, demostrating that this build can hold off some aggression.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1834
Against P with 3 gate robo
I made a few blunder in this build (blocking in my own sentry) and was behind from the get go. But I managed to pull back and won based on pure micro as well as a clutch forcefield that trapped his immortal.
Overall a very action filled game. Guy also left with GGing.
Part I
Build order (updated 10/4)
A game with the new BO
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1823
New BO (edited 10/13), this is the result of hundreds of games played. I don't think I can get more efficient than this.
- my most recent replay illustrate this BO
9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
16 pylon
- save chronoboost at 18
Cyber as soon as mineral becomes available
2nd gas as soon as mineral becomes available
When cyber is done: get one zealot, research wrap gate, start saving up chronoboost
- do not research wrap gate yet!
- at this point you should be at 22 supply, build two more probes then stop probe production
- build one sentry after the zealot is out, chronoboost it. This is the only chronoboost you will use from this point on if not harassed, save all the rest for carrier
- continuously produce zealot after
Stargate as soon as resource is available
two more gate way as soon as resource is available, add pylon as needed
- continue to produce zealot
Produce a fleet beacon as soon as stargate is done.
Produce a phoenix to scout for banshee
Produce carrier as soon as resource is ready
- continue to produce zealot until 150 gas is saved up, at this point research graviton catapult
Carrier out at 8min with constant chronoboost. usually, select all gateway units and have them follow your carrier to maintain formation
- send out a probe to construct proxy pylon for reinforcement. Ideally below their ramp so you can reinforce right into their main
Note about viking: kill them first, and because carrier have 14 range after interceptors are launched (2 from interceptor, 8 from carrier, you can actually kite unmicroed vikings, as seen in replay)
Part II
Microing your units
Retreat your carrier as soon as it gets focus fired, and definitely retreat when your rush begin to lose steam.
Carrier micro
- Carrier has 8 range when releasing interceptors, and the range becomes 14 as the interceptors are out (against a single target, must move back into 8 range to release interceptor against another target).
- Sometimes letting your opponent to target fire carrier a bit can draw fire away from your ground troops, but don't over do it!
- It's possible to precharge void ray on your carrier. (no longer relevant in 1.1.2)
Part III
This is an all in timing attack. Not pushing up the ramp result in defeat.
What if I got rushed?
use force field to hold off.
Part IV
Why don't I just make a mothership?
This comes out earlier than mothership and has more direct assualt fire power than mothership. You can 1A most terran with it.
Also, in the end, I like to end with some terran tears.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1526
QQing Terran.
EDITED: phoenix vs. void ray. I been modifying my build and build phoenix instead of void ray.
Reason 1: phoenix allow some scoutting, making your build more robost against other all-ins
Reason 2: phoneix can help defend by graviton beam earlier than v ray can come out. I imagine this can make a difference in some cases, especially my revision build has a cannon at ramp
Reason 3: main push comes out a bit faster
Reason 4: void ray is not cost effective if not charged.
9/29/10 EDIT:
Four Gate Domination Special!
Those are two replays, first one from laddering and second one from a 1000pt diamond, arguably not the best player, but so am I. On a similar skill level I was able to hold off their 4 gate.
Replay 1: PvP, metalpolis, 4 gate
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1625
I got a sentry as soon as I realized that 4 gate was coming. As you can see, one carrier literally held off the 4 gate rush. Speaking of hero carrier.
Lesson learned: 1 carrier + 2 cannon can defend against a 4 gate rush
Replay 2 PvP
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1626
This guy actually 5 gated me, and I got a sentry as soon as I realized what's going on. Some perfect sentry micro and some shitty carrier micro later (lost 2 carriers, including one with 15 kills on it)
I believe each of my carrier has at least 10 kills, more like 15. that's 1500+ mineral and 500+ gas for each of those carrier. Speaking of cost effectiveness.
10/13 EDIT
Updated with some of the finest terran tears.
So since I been having some really good results with this build against T I decided to off race as Z. I was of course rolled over by MMM because I was not experienced enough with fungal. I asked for a rematch, and my opponent simply went "nah". I explained that I was off racing and main P, then he proceeded to say "P is too easy try I only play TvT". He then explained that MMM is so good that there is no counter to it.
Well, I beg to differ, and told him I have a strat pretty much hard counter MMM. He of course laughed at this and said that tester got rolled by MMM. I replied that tester never did this build (why would a toss hero n00b cheese like this?)
He reluctantly agreed to a rematch, and I got to witness some of the finest terran QQ. He actually put me on ignored list after the match.
Guy's APM is roughly 3 times mine and he DID scout my stargate AND fleet beacon and laid down missile turrets. Unfortunately MMM just wasn't enough in his case. I imagine you have a very small timing window to scout and pump viking. I know that 2 viking isn't enough against this build.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/2046
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For the record, this push A move roll over a terran force of 6 viking, 6 marauder and 16 marine (when both side A move).
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Good stuff
The very last replay you posted is the PvZ match you posted earlier.
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Pretty nice build, look forward to playing around with it 
What could be a major weakness is the possibility of banshee (or DT?) harassment fairly early on, but I suppose you can somewhat use the void ray to scout out for such a situation, and react appropriately.
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You have a very complete guide. What league is this viable up to?
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I am in diamond 950. I imagine this will not work too well if you don't have good forcefield and voidray micro. I wonder how would this work in very high level tournament but I don't see any obvious deficient.
So there are the timing gaps.
1. Before first stalker comes out
- not a big problem, 1 gate core is standard opening, I imagine facing ultra aggressive build you can wall in/get forge up.
2. Before void ray comes out (terran marauder timing push (the early kind))
- remember your first unit is a sentry and you should have extra gas left over before you get void ray? Get sentry. I think they spawn with enough energy to force field the ramp off long enough, not to mention you can cut the enemy force in half. You do have 2 gate worth of unit more or less in constant production.
3. Before carrier comes out
- not really a problem if you still have void ray, just forcefield ramp and charge void ray on your gateway. I imagine if you lost the void ray it would be more problematic, but enough forcefield might just tie you over. And remember, once your carrier is out you can really kite those marauders with it.
4. If you lost your first wave.
- If you lost your carrier, it's more or less GG since around 20-30% of DPS comes from the carrier. You go down with the ship unless you really hurt the enemy.
- fortunately carrier is big and buff and it should stay in the back. So if you realize your force is getting low, retreat and push when the second carrier comes out.
I guess my discovery is that instead of thinking carrier as something only good en-masse, understand their potential as "hero" of the force, and have a push each time one carrier comes out. Frequent pushes can really wear out the enemy.
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This thread is a complete joke.
In your first game. the pvp. Your opponent does 1 gate into robo, into a robobay(which he never used), odd enough, then he tries a really odd strat of a fast 2 immortal drop. Its not like its some crazy impossible build, but its the perfect build for you to see as you try to carrier rush. Did you try this build 40 times and post the one game where it worked?
For whatever reason you pylon 10 and waste chrono. but thats a whole other issue. Then you make your buildings exposed below your ramp(scrap station). Any 3-4 warpgate could easily kill you. I think even a 2 gate robo/immortal would take you down too. And its not like you "countered" his build, because you never even scouted past his 1 gate 1 robo build. What if he went 1 gate 1 robo+2 gates with heavy stalkers? How would u ever counter that?
The 2nd game is a little more believable, but your play and your opponents was pretty subpar. You lose your VR by trading it for 1 queen and killing 1 gas(which wasnt even being used). Then you get a carrier ground force at the zergs 2nd base(a gold) which did WAY more damage then it should have. The zerg just lets 10+ drones die for no reason The small hydra ling force ate your stalker force up, and your carrier really didn't do much, definitely not more than what a few more stalkers/zealots could have done. If you had the manpower to actually take out the hatchery, i'd give you some props to this build, but you literally just killed drones(which you shouldnt have) and a few units and a queen.
The zerg also gets his nat(his 3rd base) but literally has 1 drone mining the entire time. But by this point, his econ is so shot for needlessly losing drones its not worth discussing viability.
Do you win? Yes. Can this work against "standard" play? No.
On the other hand, your unit control was horrendous, losing your first VR in your PvZ and losing your first carrier doing little damage in your PvZ, maybe a more experienced player can make this work.
I think we need more refined guidelines for what players can be allowed to post as [G]'s. Because you have yet to prove how to utilize this build against at least a few of the standard builds you see today.
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On September 25 2010 15:08 zomgtossrush wrote:
I think we need more refined guidelines for what players can be allowed to post as [G]'s. Because you have yet to prove how to utilize this build against at least a few of the standard builds you see today.
The guidelines are there man, but it seems that very few people know of them ^^ And there's no topic closing anymore (hard to keep up with all the QQing and help me even though my question has been resolved 4 hundred thousand fucking times... Poor tl staff :'( )
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[G] Guides Know what you are talking about Guides are complete, detailed, and comprehensive advice for a specific strategy or tactic that can be generally executed and is not situational. Guides are held up against the highest standards of quality in this forum. They are the most valuable resource for the average player. Writing a good guide may yield you wide appreciation and e-fame, but comes with a lot of work and responsibility. Naturally, do not write a guide about something you are not experienced with. If you have come up with a new build and you just won 6 games in a row with it, do not start writing a guide. Play your build more, tweak it, find out it’s weaknesses and follow-ups and branches. A good rule of thumb is to play a strategy until you lose a couple of times with it against different counters, then modify it until you win most games again, then start to think about writing a guide. A good guide does not necessarily have to be written about a build in a specific matchup, although that is most common. If you have found a new, incredibly effective way to micro Helions you can write a generic Helion micro guide. Most of the time guides will introduce builds in specific matchups though. Look through our legacy Strategy forum to get an idea on how to write good matchup build guides. There is no perfect recipe, but a few things to take care of: State the goal of the build, strengths, weaknesses, possible follow-up, and adaptations to what the opponent does. Dedicate a chapter to scouting and how to react to what you see within your build. To give you an idea of the quality we are eventually aiming for have a look at this incredible SC:BW guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89265
FYI
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On September 25 2010 15:08 zomgtossrush wrote:
This thread is a complete joke.
In your first game. the pvp. Your opponent does 1 gate into robo, into a robobay(which he never used), odd enough, then he tries a really odd strat of a fast 2 immortal drop. Its not like its some crazy impossible build, but its the perfect build for you to see as you try to carrier rush. Did you try this build 40 times and post the one game where it worked?
For whatever reason you pylon 10 and waste chrono. but thats a whole other issue. Then you make your buildings exposed below your ramp(scrap station). Any 3-4 warpgate could easily kill you. I think even a 2 gate robo/immortal would take you down too. And its not like you "countered" his build, because you never even scouted past his 1 gate 1 robo build. What if he went 1 gate 1 robo+2 gates with heavy stalkers? How would u ever counter that?
The 2nd game is a little more believable, but your play and your opponents was pretty subpar. You lose your VR by trading it for 1 queen and killing 1 gas(which wasnt even being used). Then you get a carrier ground force at the zergs 2nd base(a gold) which did WAY more damage then it should have. The zerg just lets 10+ drones die for no reason The small hydra ling force ate your stalker force up, and your carrier really didn't do much, definitely not more than what a few more stalkers/zealots could have done. If you had the manpower to actually take out the hatchery, i'd give you some props to this build, but you literally just killed drones(which you shouldnt have) and a few units and a queen.
The zerg also gets his nat(his 3rd base) but literally has 1 drone mining the entire time. But by this point, his econ is so shot for needlessly losing drones its not worth discussing viability.
Do you win? Yes. Can this work against "standard" play? No.
On the other hand, your unit control was horrendous, losing your first VR in your PvZ and losing your first carrier doing little damage in your PvZ, maybe a more experienced player can make this work.
I think we need more refined guidelines for what players can be allowed to post as [G]'s. Because you have yet to prove how to utilize this build against at least a few of the standard builds you see today.
First of all, I understand I am not very high level and have not used this consistently against high level players because I am quite busy in real life, so maybe a mod can change this from a guide to a discussion?
I imagine a player more experienced can make this work even better. I posted two replays where I lost units instead of just steam rolling over opponents, just to demostrate it can work even if things go wrong.
As for unit trading, I honestly always thought taking out a queen is good idea. I did not know that he was in fact, building another queen or that hydra was being morphed, but if I develop a superior game sense I would have been able to get it.
As for boosting at 10, I thought boosting to get 10th probe out faster would be able to gain an upper hand on economy, but I am all ears here and I am going to research if that's in fact not a standard opening.
Thank you for taking your time to critique my play
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On September 25 2010 15:21 Douillos wrote:
Naturally, do not write a guide about something you are not experienced with. If you have come up with a new build and you just won 6 games in a row with it, do not start writing a guide. Play your build more, tweak it, find out it’s weaknesses and follow-ups and branches. A good rule of thumb is to play a strategy until you lose a couple of times with it against different counters, then modify it until you win most games again, then start to think about writing a guide.
Just to be fair, I first posted this idea of one base carrier play a month ago under a different handle, but it was quite flimsy back then, so I been tweaking this build until I am winning pretty consistently against all match ups in a lower level (lower diamond level). I don't get matched against top diamonds and I do not know how this will work in upper leagues.
I find carrier to be horribly underused, yet have the potential to revolutionize at least PvT.
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On September 25 2010 13:38 Protoss_Carrier wrote:
Build order
10 pylon, probe scout, if no proxy then immediately return home (this is a fairly safe all in build against all races except 4 gate I imagine)
12 gateway
13 Refinery
- depends on whether rush coming, build another refinery or wait
15 refinery
- cut probe to get core out asap
16 Core
- if rush coming, build another gateway
17 pylon
-When Core done, build one sentry and research warp gate
- Build stalker as soon as sentry's out.
- build a stargate
Refinery?
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On September 25 2010 15:34 Soulish wrote:
Refinery?
Thanks, edited.
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On September 25 2010 15:24 Protoss_Carrier wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 15:08 zomgtossrush wrote:
This thread is a complete joke.
In your first game. the pvp. Your opponent does 1 gate into robo, into a robobay(which he never used), odd enough, then he tries a really odd strat of a fast 2 immortal drop. Its not like its some crazy impossible build, but its the perfect build for you to see as you try to carrier rush. Did you try this build 40 times and post the one game where it worked?
For whatever reason you pylon 10 and waste chrono. but thats a whole other issue. Then you make your buildings exposed below your ramp(scrap station). Any 3-4 warpgate could easily kill you. I think even a 2 gate robo/immortal would take you down too. And its not like you "countered" his build, because you never even scouted past his 1 gate 1 robo build. What if he went 1 gate 1 robo+2 gates with heavy stalkers? How would u ever counter that?
The 2nd game is a little more believable, but your play and your opponents was pretty subpar. You lose your VR by trading it for 1 queen and killing 1 gas(which wasnt even being used). Then you get a carrier ground force at the zergs 2nd base(a gold) which did WAY more damage then it should have. The zerg just lets 10+ drones die for no reason The small hydra ling force ate your stalker force up, and your carrier really didn't do much, definitely not more than what a few more stalkers/zealots could have done. If you had the manpower to actually take out the hatchery, i'd give you some props to this build, but you literally just killed drones(which you shouldnt have) and a few units and a queen.
The zerg also gets his nat(his 3rd base) but literally has 1 drone mining the entire time. But by this point, his econ is so shot for needlessly losing drones its not worth discussing viability.
Do you win? Yes. Can this work against "standard" play? No.
On the other hand, your unit control was horrendous, losing your first VR in your PvZ and losing your first carrier doing little damage in your PvZ, maybe a more experienced player can make this work.
I think we need more refined guidelines for what players can be allowed to post as [G]'s. Because you have yet to prove how to utilize this build against at least a few of the standard builds you see today. First of all, I understand I am not very high level and have not used this consistently against high level players because I am quite busy in real life, so maybe a mod can change this from a guide to a discussion? I imagine a player more experienced can make this work even better. I posted two replays where I lost units instead of just steam rolling over opponents, just to demostrate it can work even if things go wrong. As for unit trading, I honestly always thought taking out a queen is good idea. I did not know that he was in fact, building another queen or that hydra was being morphed, but if I develop a superior game sense I would have been able to get it. As for boosting at 10, I thought boosting to get 10th probe out faster would be able to gain an upper hand on economy, but I am all ears here and I am going to research if that's in fact not a standard opening. Thank you for taking your time to critique my play
I perfectly accept the fact that some guides are geared towards lower levels of play. But when writing a guide, you should have an opinion or suggestion of what to do against common builds. Like a 2 gate robo play from protoss.
On a brighter note, macro wise the replays look really solid, and this DOES have potential, but this is far from the ranks of being solid build advice.
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I don't remember who it was, but I somewhere (maybe a stream or youtube) I saw someone do a one base fast carrier push and it was executed very nicely, he actually added a mothership after 2-3 carriers. I tried it and won/lost a few games.
So, it can be viable but it's not a basic/solid build to counter everything, but this kind of build is hard to counter if not scouted.
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On September 25 2010 15:31 Protoss_Carrier wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 15:21 Douillos wrote:
Naturally, do not write a guide about something you are not experienced with. If you have come up with a new build and you just won 6 games in a row with it, do not start writing a guide. Play your build more, tweak it, find out it’s weaknesses and follow-ups and branches. A good rule of thumb is to play a strategy until you lose a couple of times with it against different counters, then modify it until you win most games again, then start to think about writing a guide.
Just to be fair, I first posted this idea of one base carrier play a month ago under a different handle, but it was quite flimsy back then, so I been tweaking this build until I am winning pretty consistently against all match ups in a lower level (lower diamond level). I don't get matched against top diamonds and I do not know how this will work in upper leagues. I find carrier to be horribly underused, yet have the potential to revolutionize at least PvT.
Then you should not be instructing others to follow in your mistakes. I been messing with fast carriers for the past week because of the funday monday, messing with alot of things and I can safely say this. Everything you have described in this "guide" of yours because all the units you have are a stalker / sentry. You will not live to see that carrier.
I spent around 30 games or so in a row perfecting rushing a carrier at the 1K diamond area, before I got it working and nothing in this "guide" match's any of that. Not 1 thing.
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Well, I play zerg low-diamond, but I am interested in this build somehow. I believe it has a good sense. In execution there might have been problems (in replays) especially in your opponent's parts, but may I humbly advice you post more replays, whether you have won or lost?
A little bit more work on it, a little bit shining up and it would be a viable guide, methinks.
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On September 25 2010 15:08 zomgtossrush wrote:
This thread is a complete joke.
In your first game. the pvp. Your opponent does 1 gate into robo, into a robobay(which he never used), odd enough, then he tries a really odd strat of a fast 2 immortal drop. Its not like its some crazy impossible build, but its the perfect build for you to see as you try to carrier rush. Did you try this build 40 times and post the one game where it worked?
He used the robo bay to make a Colossus.
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So an update, I modified my build a little bit, incoporating the 9 probe 12 gate starter and throw a forge first instead of second gate way to make my build a little bit more robost. I also been reconsidering the value of void ray because it's not super cost effective in the main army.
I also been getting upgrade from the forge. Against P and Z = attack +1, against T = defense + 1, I been forgoing air upgrade (get it later than ground) because your ground is the main DPS output where as your carrier is a distraction
Here are two more games I played, both in ladder and against 1000+ diamond opponents.
First game, I lost to Z who greedy expanded and I failed to scout out his hidden base. I also lost that void ray which pretty much cost me the game.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1540
Second game, P actually wrap gate rushed (not 4 gate though) so my additional photon cannon really shined here. I think I will be building one photon cannon and use forge upgrade as standard. My army was caught out of position once yet it still cleaned up, pretty much, showing how important early upgrade is
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Download/1541
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Just looked around in the upgrade spread sheet. It seems that upgrading air weapon lvl 1 does not have significant effect on my build, and therefore it can be put off till later. I am going to experiment with a build where graviton catapault is not upgraded until my units are on the field to squeeze out one more stalker.
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EPT
