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1600 diamond zerg, I was wondering how a zerg player can know if they have enough of a window to get overlord speed and drops for harass.
Drops can be extremely potent in mid/late game, but I never feel safe against any sorts of timing pushes after investing that 300/300 if we are on equal ground prior to it...
Also, on some maps you can just get crawlers/spores to help defend if your on 2 base, but it seems like it's extremely hard to defend a more open expansion like on metalopolis or xel naga caverns (the expansion not blocked by rocks)
In short, how do you know when to get drops and how do you adjust your defenses and army to compensate for the cost?
On November 08 2010 08:38 uberdeluxe wrote: 1600 diamond zerg, I was wondering how a zerg player can know if they have enough of a window to get overlord speed and drops for harass.
Drops can be extremely potent in mid/late game, but I never feel safe against any sorts of timing pushes after investing that 300/300 if we are on equal ground prior to it...
Also, on some maps you can just get crawlers/spores to help defend if your on 2 base, but it seems like it's extremely hard to defend a more open expansion like on metalopolis or xel naga caverns (the expansion not blocked by rocks)
In short, how do you know when to get drops and how do you adjust your defenses and army to compensate for the cost?
Whether or not I invest in drop tech (and this may be different for others) is dependent on the army composition I'm using at the time.
For example:
I'm I'm going muta/ling (which I usually am) I'm already highly mobile, and rarely feel the need to add drops into my play. Additionally, mutas are already very gas intensive, and the 200/200 for drop could just as easily be a couple more mutas, or an additional upgrade for my flock.
That doesn't mean I never add drop tech to my muta game, though. Dropping banes is potent, and sometimes necessary against T, so I will suck it up and invest in drop if I find that I'm up against an especially marine-heavy Terran player.
Now, if I'm going Roach/Hydra, I will almost always get drop. Roach/Hydra suffers innately from immobility, and lacks the muta's ability to force an opponent to run back and forth to and from his main. Drop tech opens up that kind of harassment option. There's also few things more game ending that winning an engagement out in the field, and then immediately loading up your remaining army and dropping right on top of your opponent's production facilities.
^^ That's the thought process I adhere to when it comes to drop tech. Hope that helps!
I thought i was a big shot when I built up a seven game winning streak and got promoted to silver. I was apparently wrong. http://www.sc2replayed.com/players/82407-kaonis All of these replays are losses, of course. They made me realize that I don't necessarily macro as well as a plat player because two 200/200 armies smashing into each other with no pressure beforehand doesn't indicate how fast you get there... Anyways, any analysis would be GREATLY appreciated. I feel like i'm doing everything I can, and still just not "getting" something.
On November 03 2010 16:58 Alpina wrote: How do you deal with proxy canons behind the mineral line of expansion?
It's very effective even if you don't put hatch first, cause you can't expand very long time.
Early roaches to kill canons? Will put too far behind I think. Getting hidden expansion? Too risky.
Maybe banelings?
Anyone?
Roach/Ling cleans that up just fine. What you have to realize is that you aren't so far behind, because your opponent invested quite a bit of money into the forge, pylons, and cannons. Unless they do significant damage, they are likely further behind than you are, as long as you remain calm and play it out like normal.
I have a question related to ZvT. My opening is 14 Pool 15 Hatch and I aim for Mutaling/Bling, transitioning into Ultra/Ling if the game goes long enough. I've been doing quite well vs T except for certain early timing pushes, that I wasn't actually losing to previous to now.
Terrans seem to be going much more marine heavy since GSL, and I've ran into alot that also incorporate Reapers into their play instead of Marauders. I have not even been building a Roach Warren vs T ever since Reaper harrass went away, so I defend with Speedlings and later Banelings once speed is done. The marine/reaper pushes are coming just as my Lair has completed and my Spire is going down and by Baneling speed starts. They'll stim into my natural and position themselves between my Hatchery and mineral line and run around that general area, and with the marines and repears they tear through speedlings like crazy not to mention I am unable to surround them.
Has anyone run into this play? Should I just build Roaches and deal with having fewer Mutas or should I instead try Banes without speed hoping they run out of room to micro? I know Roaches are the safe option but I really hate how building them slows down teching and reduces Muta count, not to mention they might not even push with marines and repears exclusively.
I'm generally a very offensive zerg, but I have been trying out the heavy idraesque macro style. I seem to lose a LOT of games purely because of being supply blocked. What is a macro style policy for overlords? Should I always be 3 or 4 ahead of what I actually need for when I make an army as they move out of their base, or should I just have half the army already made and finish it up when they move out? Also, general tips for preventing supply blocks?
Lots of good advice here. My problem is almost entirely with ZvZ lately. Somehow, this used to be a more macro oriented match up. Lately, though, every game is intense pressure, usually some early ling harass, sometimes with banelings, almost always transitioning to very early mutas.
I hate this because it locks me into certain builds and contains pretty effectively. I don't really want to do aggressive ling attacks every game. Ideally I would get a fast expand and hold off an initial push on maps where a fast expand should be viable. Lings come too quickly, though, before spine crawlers can get up. Constant pressure will kill my queens and unless I manage to get one crawler up will probably result in a GG.
I feel like a slightly later expand might work, but this is vulnerable to that muta transition that most players are doing lately. Perhaps early hydras are the answer to this. Even so, hydras are confined to the base and most scouting is prevented by mutas and the active harassment. This is way too fast for infestors. They just take too much gas and time to get going.
Advice? Is hard aggression the only way to do ZvZ now?
I want to know how to ZvZ. Any Vods, articles, anything usefull that will help me get better at ZvZ would be appriciated. So if you got something that helped you, please share?
PS. I could do fine without 1 line advice i'd like something i can sink my teeth into.
I'm also having problems with zvz. usually i get contained by the opponents 2x muta swarm to my ~7 muta harassment. it annoys me that the main AA unit is so expensive and blocks me from producing any other units. spine crawlers don't seem to be working either as a ling swarm usually just bypasses my defenses. i tend to favour roach/hydra so this may be a contributing factor. i also can never take a third and end up being mined out and unable to expand or produce anything. really need ZvZ help now...
When using a 5 Roach Rush (expoing when your roaches move out), if the toss or terran opponent defeats this push fairly easily (ex. 4WG rush) with them taking minimal damage, they are at a significant advantage. What can you do to fend of the counter rush and come out in a good position?
What is a good transition to mid game from this opening in ZvP and ZvT when the initial rush fails to do enough damage?
On November 08 2010 20:20 Gono wrote: I'm generally a very offensive zerg, but I have been trying out the heavy idraesque macro style. I seem to lose a LOT of games purely because of being supply blocked. What is a macro style policy for overlords? Should I always be 3 or 4 ahead of what I actually need for when I make an army as they move out of their base, or should I just have half the army already made and finish it up when they move out? Also, general tips for preventing supply blocks?
Check your supply when you do your injections, build OLs as if those larva were available in your production cycle. Supply blocks after injection pops are brutal, as you're sitting above the 3 larva limit until you can free up supply.
Another common source is sniped OLs. As soon as you see an OL getting attacked, build a replacement or two. Same deal when you send in scout OLs.
When you're waiting for spire to finish in a muta build, make sure there's room for more production. 7 mutas = 14 supply. You want to overshoot here too, because often muta harassment will trigger a counterattack from your opponent. If you're supply capped and let macro slip while microing mutas, it can be GG.
My friend and I have been playing around with builds, and I can't seem to find a counter to mass Ravens with early Fortress and missile turret turtling. Barely anything can even hit them with that many PDD's up, and so many turrets just shred anything and last a few years with the upgrades. I know denying expo's would work since Ravens are expensive, but that doesn't feel like much of a 'counter', so much as 'play better than him' is a counter.
I have become very frustrated with playing zvt in longer games. I seem to get all my wins from early aggression. I find if the game goes beyond the 10 minute mark I almost always lose. (I am a platinum player trying to break into diamond).
The thing that frustrates me is that I usually feel like I am outplaying my terran opponents in longer games. In a typical game I will have more bases, more supply, bigger armies, even or ahead in upgrades ... but I still lose. I try to harass with mutas, but it always seems ineffective, maybe I kill a couple workers and a couple turrets here and there, but it doesn't affect the outcome.
The problem is that once the terran turtles up, gets a some thors and some tanks, gets an expo with a planetary fortress, I don't know how to attack it. I feel like there is no good way to attack this head on, so I try to out macro and have more stuff, and deny him a 3rd. I spread creep all over so I know exactly when he moves out.
In a typical game the terran will push out with thors, a couple tanks, usually some marines and marauders and medivacs, and I can't seem to beat this army. I've had lots of battles where I have 30 or 40 more supply worth of army units but I still get crushed.
I have lost so many games along these lines that I have all but given up on playing a macro style against terrans. I feel forced to do cheesy strategies like 7RR because it seems like the best way to win. The problem is I don't feel that much satisfaction from winning with cheese -- I would much rather play a macro game with a 14 hatch 14 pool or something long those lines. I just can't seem to make it work.
It seems like it's very easy for the terran to just turtle, build a big mech army with bio support, and push out and kill me. I simply don't know what I should be trying to do to counter this seemingly easy strategy. I've tried to watch pro replays of Z v T to see how the pro zergs do it. The depressing thing is that most of the games I've watched the pros seem to lose the same way I do!
So with that background, here are my questions:
1. What are the strategic considerations against a turtling terran on two bases? What should my game plan be at this point, when I have 3 bases and a decent lead in economy and supply? 2. Can you point me to some high level replays where zergs play a macro style and beat a turtling/meching terran? I would love to find some of these so at least I can know what I should be trying to do.
On November 06 2010 05:13 Warrior Madness wrote: My apologies if this has already been asked in this thread (potentially by myself) but what is the best way to inject larva? And please don't give a "whatever you find best" response. I'd like to know why you think your method is the best. The two methods I'm familiar with is hotkeying queens under one key and v clicking the hatcheries on the minimap. The queen closest to the hatchery will automatically inject. The problem with this method is it requires a lot of attention. You're in the middle of a battle and you need to inject, you have to look at the minimap, locate each hatch and individually clcik them.
The second method is using the "backspace" key to center your view on each hatchery. You press backspace and the camera automatically centers on the hatchery and you just click v on the hatchery. You press backspace again and again cycling through each hatchery. This is A LOT faster than the minimap method. However, its downside is that the camera centers on seemingly random hatcheries. So say you have 3 queens at the first 3 hatcheries that you made. Well the problem is the camera might center to your 4th or 5th hatchery first before cycling through the rest of the hatcheries.
And I just learned about a third method today. You hotkey all your hatcheries on 4 and then you hotkey successive queens and hatcheries on 5, 6 and 7. So your first queen and hatch goes on 5, your second goes on 6, etc. This way you also have control of your queens when you need them.
I use the backspace method.
A lot of pros prefer to hotkey their hatcheries separately on 5-0 and just 55, inject, 66, inject, 66, inject, etc.
In other words: Just use what feels natural. Different strokes for different folks.
I tried hotkeying the queens and hatches seperately i.e. 5 would be queen 1 and hatch 1, 6 would be queen 2 and hatch 2 and 6 would be queen 3 and hatch 3. This just seems like the fastest method and a lot of the pros do it similarily but.... I've lost 500 points trying to adjust to it lolol. I'm a macro player and I can usually keep my mins under 300 even on 4-5 fully saturated bases. But when I try this layout sometimes i go over 900 mins off two bases. I don't know why...
Another con is it messes up my game sense. I'm so focused on doing this mechanic that i don't really think about the proper responses. I'm thinking I should at least try it out for a full month and see where I am by then but it's really taken a toll on my game play.
Also I'd like to know if there are any notable pros who use the minimap method?
I want to know how to ZvZ. Any Vods, articles, anything usefull that will help me get better at ZvZ would be appriciated. So if you got something that helped you, please share?
PS. I could do fine without 1 line advice i'd like something i can sink my teeth into.
Not sure if this helps anyone, but my new strategy ZvZ is to just pick a strategy and go with it knowing that it will probably work half the time and lose half the time and be fine with it.
What I mean is basically, ZvZ is a crapshoot that we all know. Some matches both players don't get a pool till the 20's.. especially if they have vision of each others bases. Some matches both will early expand, and some games you'll get 6 pooled. The spectrum of what you see is so wide spread I think you are at a disadvantage trying to do multiple builds/strats or trying to scout and react.
So I think the best thing to do, is come up with something that you read works vs. zerg or that you feel comfortable doing and just get really good at that particular strategy and know certain situations you'll win and others you lose.
For example, for a while I used a build where I went ling/bling on 1 base. I basically always win if I see mass lings, any type of expansion, and sometimes win in bling wars depending on micro. If someone goes roaches quick then it doesn't work and gg.
Another option would be like a 1 base roach, or 1 base roach/ling build. Again you'll beat anyone who lings/blings, who early expands, and who just lings. You'll have a toss up against another 1 base roach.
So I think instead of trying to scout and be reactionary and all that crap just pick something and do it.
That or just 6 pool each game.
If interested, the ling/bling build I used that worked quite well was something generally like - 9 OL, 13 Gas, 14 Pool, drone to 16, OL at 16, queen when pool pops(inject don't spread creep) OL at 21 so you have enough supply when larva hits. I upgrade ling speed at 100 gas, and drop the nest at around halfway on the speed upgrade. Move out lings after you make a batch with your first injection(should have a good amount at that point) and make my banes outside his base and then go for it.
1. What are the strategic considerations against a turtling terran on two bases? What should my game plan be at this point, when I have 3 bases and a decent lead in economy and supply? 2. Can you point me to some high level replays where zergs play a macro style and beat a turtling/meching terran? I would love to find some of these so at least I can know what I should be trying to do.
I had issues with this for a long time. My problem wasn't 2 base terran but when they took their 3rd and just like you said turtled behind a PF(which is so OP btw but nobody talks about it). In Diamond you won't see a 2 base terran with a PF on his second. But what I found and it is obvious but took me some time is simply this, don't engage at the PF. If they are turtling at the PF take the map and you should have a lot of hatches/larva/money to rebuild your army quickly anytime you engage away from the PF so just do all you can to trade armies and rebuild yours. Find any method you can to go after his main/other expands that don't have the PF, nydus works great, any back door rocks, drops, mutas, whatever. Lastly, keep him on those 2-3 bases and run him out of money.
Throwing units away again and again at a turtled PF is just a waste. I can remember quite a few games where it was just like "i'll do anything to destroy that thing." But it is easier said than done. So biggest thing is just be patient. You have the game won if you take the map and out macro him so make the terran be the one to go on the move. Eventually that PF will be mined out, or you'll have enough money to go ultras or broods which will do quick work of the PF. Just be willing to play a longer game against a player that turtles. The reason turtling works is because players get impatient, throw units away over and over at it, and the opponent who should be at an economy disadvantage isn't because he hasn't lost enough units during your attacks.
A newb question, but around when should I get my first upgrades if I am going mass Roaches and Hydras? Also, what is the correct build order for that? Not the entire thing, but maybe a general outline should be nice.
On November 08 2010 20:20 Gono wrote: Also, general tips for preventing supply blocks?
Build more Overlords.
Try to think ahead, if you plan to build your army soon make sure you have the supply for it.
Never stop making Overlords until your army starts dying or you reach 200 supply (if possible try not to make more than two at a time).
Try to build yourself a routine of constantly making Overlords everytime you feel like you should be "power-Droneing".
one OL for every spawn larva 2 base is a good rule of thumb to go by. edit: i mean for the two spawn larva off a 2 base. aka one production cycle 2 base
EPT
