|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On November 10 2010 10:14 FLuE wrote:
I had issues with this for a long time. My problem wasn't 2 base terran but when they took their 3rd and just like you said turtled behind a PF(which is so OP btw but nobody talks about it). In Diamond you won't see a 2 base terran with a PF on his second. But what I found and it is obvious but took me some time is simply this, don't engage at the PF. If they are turtling at the PF take the map and you should have a lot of hatches/larva/money to rebuild your army quickly anytime you engage away from the PF so just do all you can to trade armies and rebuild yours. Find any method you can to go after his main/other expands that don't have the PF, nydus works great, any back door rocks, drops, mutas, whatever. Lastly, keep him on those 2-3 bases and run him out of money.
Throwing units away again and again at a turtled PF is just a waste. I can remember quite a few games where it was just like "i'll do anything to destroy that thing." But it is easier said than done. So biggest thing is just be patient. You have the game won if you take the map and out macro him so make the terran be the one to go on the move. Eventually that PF will be mined out, or you'll have enough money to go ultras or broods which will do quick work of the PF. Just be willing to play a longer game against a player that turtles. The reason turtling works is because players get impatient, throw units away over and over at it, and the opponent who should be at an economy disadvantage isn't because he hasn't lost enough units during your attacks.
/essay done.
Thanks for the response. The real problem I have is not throwing away units against the PF, it's when he pushes out. This happens before he runs out of money, he just rolls out with a large army and no unit composition that I've tried is effective at stopping it. This is why I'm not sure how to play a long zvt game.
|
Gotcha, I mean vs. that Thor/MMM army I like Roach/Baneling/Infestor. What I've been doing lately with success is opening fast expand mutas but once my first 8-10 mutas are out go right to roach/baneling. This is because I usually have a build up of excess minerals and also the typical Terran response is thors and marines because it seems right now terran is in love with both those units. So after that initial muta harras I try to just use the mutas if any banshee is out and to control the map but make that switch because Roach/Bling will counter the Thor/Marine response terran typically has when they see the mutas early.
Before he moves out try to get a count of the number of thors. This will help you determine how much roach/bling ratio you should have. Just like 2-3 Thors make sure you have a lot of banes, 5+ thors more roach heavy.
Lastly, the key to it is you probably won't win vs. a max terran army unless he poorly micros or you get a really good flank or something. Try to trade armies because if you have the map, and have out macroed him, you can rebuild and mobilize your army a ton faster than terran. Keep your larva up, and try to fight when he is just moving out. That will give you the most time to get your new army rebuilt. Just make sure you aren't putting to much effort into winning that max v max battle, and more effort into just taking out everything you can but make sure you have a fresh new army building as your supply decreases. Use a small group of speedlings to make sure he isn't able to expand behind his push and lay another PF down somewhere and you should be able to run him out of money. Don't be afraid to lay down an extra hatch or two if you are mineral heavy and find yourself missing some injections. That will also help you rebuild your army fast.
What unit compositions are you tending to use that hasn't worked? I know to many mutas after the early game was what was really killing me. Unless it seems like now I can continue to mass mutas and end the game, I cut production because turrets are strong, marines are easy to pump, and those Thors are going to be out. I really wish Mutas would turn into Broodlords not corrupters.
|
On November 10 2010 12:47 TBTaser wrote:
A newb question, but around when should I get my first upgrades if I am going mass Roaches and Hydras? Also, what is the correct build order for that? Not the entire thing, but maybe a general outline should be nice.
yeah im wondering about going roach/hydra/infestor as well against protoss and terran, against zerg i use it a lot. is it viable or are there too many counters?
i feel like the new toss builds that shit on roach/ling or mutas for the most part, could be countered by hydras.
|
On November 11 2010 07:36 FLuE wrote:
What unit compositions are you tending to use that hasn't worked? I know to many mutas after the early game was what was really killing me. Unless it seems like now I can continue to mass mutas and end the game, I cut production because turrets are strong, marines are easy to pump, and those Thors are going to be out. I really wish Mutas would turn into Broodlords not corrupters.
I feel like I have tried a few different combos. I have defnintely failed with too many mutas. I have gone roach hydra without success. I have started to use infestors, which are definitely good but not good enough to turn the tide. I've tried banelings too but once the ball gets big enough they seem to die before they get close enough to kill anything.
Here are my plans for the next time I get this situation:
- Lots of banelings, including some burrowed ones along the path I expect him to take
- Spine crawlers on high ground (on maps that allow this)
- Harass with 6-8 mutas to try to keep him in his base and delay the push
- Roaches are the core ground unit
- Nydus in the back of his main if possible (again the goal is just to keep him busy and delay the push as long as possible)
- Infestors, of course, try to get these early so i have lots of energy for fungal growth
- Tech as fast as possible to t3 - if the map has exploitable high ground then broodlords, if the map is wide open then ultras
Although lately these kind of games have been auto-losses for me, I have been enjoying the games so I guess that's what's important. I hope that if I just keep trying one day a light will turn on in my head and I'll start to understand how to win this match up.
Edit: the worst thing about all these losses is that when I watch the replay I always say "wow, 7RR would have crushed this guy ...." ;/
|
I need help against this Toss build.
4 Gateways, with Cyber core. They'll get some units out, I scout the 4 gateways and I'm forced defensive because of-course, with a forward Pylon and some units they'll wreck me.
They'll feign a push, probably poke in a few times but if they see a sizable army they'll back off.
This seriously hurts. I've been forced to make Spinecrawlers and Roaches or Zerglings, meaning less drones. The Protoss expands and starts to dictate the pace of the game. He'll add in a couple more Gateways and then Robo+Bay for Colossi. Now I'm scared to death because 6 Warpgates produce A LOT of units fast, and I need to saturate and expand. It's hard to expand though with those 6 warpgates that produced a crap ton of units and them stationing themselves where they can fight me, IE a ramp/choke towards a third, etc.
This 4-gate feign push really messes with me. Because the 4 gate WILL win outright if you don't prepare, yet they're comfortably expanding behind it, putting them on even bases, if not giving them more cause of the contain.
|
Well, if you have more units and they back off, why not just counter-attack? You've made all those units, why not use them?
|
Hi!
First of all I´d like to thank Saracen and all the pro Zerg players very very much for initiating this thread and answering all the Zerg relevant questions so patiently!
You really make this Zerg existence more liveable. 
Anyway, my question is this:
I am used to drone up and keep my investment in units as low as possible without beeing overrolled.
Additionally I scout the front and place my ovies to know, when my opponent is attacking and how much he has. Then I usually have enough larvae and resources, to make enough units to stop him- at least theoretically, but a huge problem of mine is to efficiently controll the replenishment. I usually have all my hatcheries and lairs and the like assigned to one control group and thus I set one rally point for all of them. Now when the units pop out, they walk a bit and begin to attack when they reach the rally point. this is very very inefficient, since my opponent is able to attack them, while they walk their way to the rally point. On the other hand, when I set individual rally points for each hatch, or at least for each set of hatcheries within one area, I am not able to control all of them efficiently at the same time and thus some of them will wait and kick their heels until I finally tell them where to attack.
Losing this way is very annoying, since I have all the resources, have enough the larvae (at least another resource for Zerg) and due to scouting enogh time to prepare for slowing down the attack, to produce more units, but somehow I am not able to EFFECTIVELY MAKE USE OF THEM, because of the described rally point problem.
I am very thankful for any constructive tipps and comments.
|
On November 12 2010 04:00 kmh wrote:
Well, if you have more units and they back off, why not just counter-attack? You've made all those units, why not use them?
Because he can reinforce them ridiculously fast with 4/6 warpgates. Two cycles of units by the time the engagement happens (second cycle might come during engagment) and if I wanted to win the fight I'd have to all-in and completely stop drone production, so if he holds off it'll be GG for me.
I don't make enough units to overwhelm his force thats at my door, I make enough to hold it. I make spinecrawlers which can't be used to attack because the range is awesome.
Also Stalker micro makes it hard, Roach range has helped but with decent micro you can hold off a decent amount of Roaches.
Roughly 1900+ mark I'm hitting this wall.
|
If you spot a stargate building void rays and a bunch of zealots at 5-5.30 what is your response, assuming 2 hatcheries, a roach warren building, a few lings and 2 queens far positions?
|
Here are my plans for the next time I get this situation:
- Lots of banelings, including some burrowed ones along the path I expect him to take
- Spine crawlers on high ground (on maps that allow this)
- Harass with 6-8 mutas to try to keep him in his base and delay the push
- Roaches are the core ground unit
- Nydus in the back of his main if possible (again the goal is just to keep him busy and delay the push as long as possible)
- Infestors, of course, try to get these early so i have lots of energy for fungal growth
- Tech as fast as possible to t3 - if the map has exploitable high ground then broodlords, if the map is wide open then ultras
Thing I hate about broodlords is their speed, but they are nice to mix in especially to target fire and have hang back a bit to help defend.
Few things from reading what you wrote that might help - You do need a lot of banelings to deal with that MM ball. But make sure you have lings mixed in with that to help take the fire or surround and have the banes there after. Try to have the lings/banes in a flank position with your roaches targeting from the front and flanking with your bling/ling ball. This works well and can leave him without an army quickly. Often times people try to just have their units charge forward bling with roaches behind with hydras behind. If you aren't in a huge open area you just funnel right into the terran and their ball-o-death.
Keep using infestors, they will turn the tide for sure just work on getting better with their micro(I'm not saying this because I'm an expert with them, I have trouble keeping the stupid things alive but I know their value and am working hard to use them better). A few good fungals will make your banelings even better.
But sounds like you have a good plan. Good roach army, with tons of blings, and 4 infestors or so with high energy. Fight him as soon as he starts to move out so that you have max time to rebuild your army. A nice little move to do too is to ball your roaches with the blings in the middle. Charge up to the Terran ball, start fighting, and then burrow the roaches letting the blings come out and do damage. Nice little move that can get the blings in close and alive to do damage.
I think just by posting and talking it out you've got a plan that should work, it is just going to be about the execution of the attack and making sure the blings aren't wasted, you land some good fungals, and have roaches left to clean it up. Then don't make the mistake I do which is try to run in and finish off the PF losing my remaining units. Just rebuild and keep expanding and it is gg eventually.
|
In ZvZ, if I scout my opponent early and he has a really early extractor, like finished with 3 guys mining and no pool, what should I be expecting?
|
Ex protoss player here, just switched to zerg, all i can say is that i love it, i seem to enjoy all of the z mechanics over protoss, i dont think ill ever look back!
|
In ZvZ, if I scout my opponent early and he has a really early extractor, like finished with 3 guys mining and no pool, what should I be expecting?
Could be a baneling build and he is stockpiling some gas for it, or could be a fast muta/lair tech build. Could just be a poor build order.
|
On November 13 2010 11:45 Lavitage wrote:
In ZvZ, if I scout my opponent early and he has a really early extractor, like finished with 3 guys mining and no pool, what should I be expecting?
banelings
|
On November 12 2010 03:43 Kaiko wrote:
I need help against this Toss build.
4 Gateways, with Cyber core. They'll get some units out, I scout the 4 gateways and I'm forced defensive because of-course, with a forward Pylon and some units they'll wreck me.
They'll feign a push, probably poke in a few times but if they see a sizable army they'll back off.
This seriously hurts. I've been forced to make Spinecrawlers and Roaches or Zerglings, meaning less drones. The Protoss expands and starts to dictate the pace of the game. He'll add in a couple more Gateways and then Robo+Bay for Colossi. Now I'm scared to death because 6 Warpgates produce A LOT of units fast, and I need to saturate and expand. It's hard to expand though with those 6 warpgates that produced a crap ton of units and them stationing themselves where they can fight me, IE a ramp/choke towards a third, etc.
This 4-gate feign push really messes with me. Because the 4 gate WILL win outright if you don't prepare, yet they're comfortably expanding behind it, putting them on even bases, if not giving them more cause of the contain.
I too am having major trouble against these types of things. First of all ZvP wtf do I go??? I have yet to find a good unit comp that doesnt sacrifice so much eco early on other then mass roach which only works with 0 FFs. Also pheonixes into collosus + gateway. These pushes are destroying me in ladder and sometimes they are done by people who dont even have skill they just copy copy copy. If someone could help that would be great
|
I have yet another question:
What is the right placement of spine/ spore crawlers (if necessary conditional on specific circumstances)?
I often face the problem, that I place my spine crawlers and the opponents untis slip through, or that I place my spore crawlers and the banshees or voids or the like find a place to securely attack from.
On the other hand I balk at placing too many crawlers since it seems inefficient.
Thanks for answering.
|
On November 13 2010 17:46 Trowa789 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 03:43 Kaiko wrote:
I need help against this Toss build.
4 Gateways, with Cyber core. They'll get some units out, I scout the 4 gateways and I'm forced defensive because of-course, with a forward Pylon and some units they'll wreck me.
They'll feign a push, probably poke in a few times but if they see a sizable army they'll back off.
This seriously hurts. I've been forced to make Spinecrawlers and Roaches or Zerglings, meaning less drones. The Protoss expands and starts to dictate the pace of the game. He'll add in a couple more Gateways and then Robo+Bay for Colossi. Now I'm scared to death because 6 Warpgates produce A LOT of units fast, and I need to saturate and expand. It's hard to expand though with those 6 warpgates that produced a crap ton of units and them stationing themselves where they can fight me, IE a ramp/choke towards a third, etc.
This 4-gate feign push really messes with me. Because the 4 gate WILL win outright if you don't prepare, yet they're comfortably expanding behind it, putting them on even bases, if not giving them more cause of the contain. I too am having major trouble against these types of things. First of all ZvP wtf do I go??? I have yet to find a good unit comp that doesnt sacrifice so much eco early on other then mass roach which only works with 0 FFs. Also pheonixes into collosus + gateway. These pushes are destroying me in ladder and sometimes they are done by people who dont even have skill they just copy copy copy. If someone could help that would be great
Muta/Ling is the answer.
Even against stargate. Just sprinkle in a couple corruptors. This will force him to either commit to phoenix, or tech switch. Either way, you come out ahead, so long as you don't overproduce corruptors.
Expand when your mutas pop and you have map control.
On November 13 2010 17:58 Antag0nist wrote:
I have yet another question:
What is the right placement of spine/ spore crawlers (if necessary conditional on specific circumstances)?
I often face the problem, that I place my spine crawlers and the opponents untis slip through, or that I place my spore crawlers and the banshees or voids or the like find a place to securely attack from.
On the other hand I balk at placing too many crawlers since it seems inefficient.
Thanks for answering.
Spines should be able to cover your ramp, and your natural hatch. This way if he tries to run past, you can just clog the ramp with your own units while he gets slammed by spines.
|
I'm getting beat by the quick marine push lately, so last night when I scouted two quick barracks with reactor, I threw down two spines and made a bunch of lings.
He didn't push, and my economy was so crippled when he did push I didn't have hardly anything.
How do I deal with that?
|
On November 14 2010 01:29 Falcon-sw wrote:
I'm getting beat by the quick marine push lately, so last night when I scouted two quick barracks with reactor, I threw down two spines and made a bunch of lings.
He didn't push, and my economy was so crippled when he did push I didn't have hardly anything.
How do I deal with that?
Better scouting.
Also, 2 spines is overkill. You can get by with 1 well positioned spine and lings.
|
Hello fellow TL members 8)!
I've been having ALOT of trouble vsZ and vsP.
Zerg:
I have no clue what to do, ever since the patch the amount of zergs I battle against is so huge, I have no practice with the matchup and I have a feeling that I'm playing a crappy version of rock paper scissors.
I have no idea when to expand, or when to attack, harass...etc. I also have the feeling that when I use mutas they do absolutely nothing, they get owned by mass hydra and queens in no time, but, when I try that hydra queen composition mutas utterly destroy my army.
Roaches seem to die so quick to a mass speeling build, I mostly make 5 only to block my ramp ,but I mean, I can't block my base forever :/
Protoss:
4 warpgate here, 4 warpgate there, 4 warpgate everywhere...
I get destroyed by 4 warpgate and all it's variations. If I can somehow survive the early/mid game, most of the time I win. But the problem is on my early game vs protoss...IT'S BAD!
I'ts getting to the point that everytime I see a protoss on ladder I start counting the minutes left for me to say gg.
Anyway! if you could give me any advice on how I could practice or how to counter or pretty much anything about this matchups I will greatly appreciate it!
BTW, I'm "top" plat player...rapidly losing points to all this stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
