EPTthis ZvP be handled?
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169540
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169537
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 42
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MobiusOne
United States106 Posts
this ZvP be handled? http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169540 http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169537 | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On November 28 2010 17:54 BnK wrote: from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172107¤tpage=5 do you think that 10 pool 18 hatch is viable? Umm... Well I don't think that 10 pool is bad. I don't think it'll ever become standard, though. I look at early pool builds as just a way to keep greedy toss players honest. In general, I still prefer 14 pool, 16 hatch. | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
These builds are becoming increasingly popular. examples are 2gate before cyber into a delayed 4gate push (or 3gate expand); or double rax before gas, then taking double gas and going banshee. When I see 2 gates I cant simply ignore it until I actually see zealots coming my way because I wont be able to build an army in time. I am forced to either start making zerglings right away or put down a warren and get 3-4 "security" roaches. all these greatly delay my expo (or hatch) which is essential to survive the 4gate push that he might decide to go for, and if he expands I am behind in econ with a useless army. Likewise the 2 racks force me to get some banelings soon, all gas that delays the tech required to effectively combat the banshees - and larva are effectively lost putting me behind economically. it's not that hard for someone to deny scouting enough to let you in the dark about what they are actually going for. To me it feels like a coinflip, I have to decide what seems most likely and if I am wrong I lose, with a great deal of uncertainty. | ||
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`Winter
United Kingdom19 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On November 29 2010 04:10 `Winter wrote: Im a fairly new player and I was wondering what the difference between 14 pool 14 hatch and 14 hatch 14 pool are exactly? A faster hatch means more larva earlier in the game. It also means a faster 2nd queen, facilitating better creep spread, and again, more larva through the mid-game. You don't necessarily gain a drone advantage by going hatch first, but once you stabilize, it allows for you to drone extremely heavily as you transition into the mid-game. In general, pool first just allows you to get some lings out a little sooner, and maybe start an early spine... Its just a little safer. On November 29 2010 03:35 dementrio wrote: I need help on a few situations, all related to larva management. I have trouble in the early game when against builds that, as far as I can scout, could mean different things - some of which require me to make an army early and others which require to drone and tech. These builds are becoming increasingly popular. examples are 2gate before cyber into a delayed 4gate push (or 3gate expand); or double rax before gas, then taking double gas and going banshee. When I see 2 gates I cant simply ignore it until I actually see zealots coming my way because I wont be able to build an army in time. I am forced to either start making zerglings right away or put down a warren and get 3-4 "security" roaches. all these greatly delay my expo (or hatch) which is essential to survive the 4gate push that he might decide to go for, and if he expands I am behind in econ with a useless army. Likewise the 2 racks force me to get some banelings soon, all gas that delays the tech required to effectively combat the banshees - and larva are effectively lost putting me behind economically. it's not that hard for someone to deny scouting enough to let you in the dark about what they are actually going for. To me it feels like a coinflip, I have to decide what seems most likely and if I am wrong I lose, with a great deal of uncertainty. For starters - don't let your expo be delayed. It needs to go down between 16-21 every single game. No matter what. Secondly, you really have to be relentless with your scouting. Sac overlords, poke up his ramp with lings, anything you have to do until you have some idea of what he's up to. More than anything, your ability to interpret the scout comes down to practice and experience. And if you see 2 gates, you literally can ignore it until you see units coming your way. You just have to make sure you have units in position to spot his aggression before its on top of you. Have a ling at the bottom of his ramp and another one just outside his natural... Control the Xel'Naga Towers. Position overlords tactically, giving you as much vision of the map as possible. There are steps you can take to make sure you know when he's pushing, and how hard he's pushing. Once you've learned how to do that, you'll find that its much easier to safely drone until the last possible second. | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
On November 29 2010 05:44 MrBitter wrote: And if you see 2 gates, you literally can ignore it until you see units coming your way. I cant seem to get this to work. If he doesnt rally the gates to my base (which is easy to deal with), they would wait until they have 6-8 zealots and then attack. (or simply quit the 2gate pressure and transition into something else, as I was saying). Obviously nobody tries a 2gate on long rush distances, so usually have less than a minute from when the ling at the bottom of his ramp sees that and when they are in my base. unless you are stockpiling minerals/larva how can you build enough army to defend to that? you need 5-6 roaches or 15+ lings. same thing against rax heavy openings, I can morph banelings in time only if I have lings already waiting. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On November 29 2010 07:21 dementrio wrote: I cant seem to get this to work. If he doesnt rally the gates to my base (which is easy to deal with), they would wait until they have 6-8 zealots and then attack. (or simply quit the 2gate pressure and transition into something else, as I was saying). Obviously nobody tries a 2gate on long rush distances, so usually have less than a minute from when the ling at the bottom of his ramp sees that and when they are in my base. unless you are stockpiling minerals/larva how can you build enough army to defend to that? you need 5-6 roaches or 15+ lings. same thing against rax heavy openings, I can morph banelings in time only if I have lings already waiting. For a delayed push like this, there's literally zero reason for you to be surprised. Close positions,especially, as your overlord will have had ample time to get a look at his base. This is also why Machine says to always scout the close ground base with your first overlord, instead of the close air base. | ||
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
Im thinking of just trying to hold off the stalker/c ball with lings and some mutas until I reach muta critical mass and rape the stalkers. But then again that might take too long for mutas to reach critical. Bling/muta vs protoss....hehe i guess itll help me practice for my terran matchups as well. | ||
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
On November 29 2010 09:12 zak wrote: Collossus. I really need help. Tired of a couple Collossus tearing apart my army. Mass stalkers and collossus is a pain. Is the answer muta ling or is it roach/hydra/corrupter? Which is more effective? Has anyone tried bling/muta vs stalker/collossus ball? Im thinking of just trying to hold off the stalker/c ball with lings and some mutas until I reach muta critical mass and rape the stalkers. But then again that might take too long for mutas to reach critical. Bling/muta vs protoss....hehe i guess itll help me practice for my terran matchups as well. several ways depending on how the protoss gets his collo, if he goes stalker weak then 100% muta switch is always a good alternative. Timing attack with roach/ling or hydras before he gets his collossus can also be very effective, if you have hydras cause he started with phoenix/VR for example and you know he's about to get his collossi then you can attack him before the collossi are out even if you can't kill him you will trade units much more effectively before his collossi are out than after, so he won't have a huge meatwall to protect his collo with. If you fail dealing with his army and he gets a substantial force of stalker/collossi then your best bet is to expand alot and attack everywhere the protoss ball isn't, go basetrade instead of trying to defend cause you just can't beat a stalker collossi army unless you have completely overwhelming numbers. as for Roach/hydra/corruptor vs muta ling i'd say in a straight up engagement R/H/C is your best bet but on larger maps ling/muta might be more effective due to mobility cause even with R/H/C winning a straight up fight against collossi is still fucking hard  | ||
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
On November 29 2010 09:24 nttea wrote: several ways depending on how the protoss gets his collo, if he goes stalker weak then 100% muta switch is always a good alternative. Timing attack with roach/ling or hydras before he gets his collossus can also be very effective, if you have hydras cause he started with phoenix/VR for example and you know he's about to get his collossi then you can attack him before the collossi are out even if you can't kill him you will trade units much more effectively before his collossi are out than after, so he won't have a huge meatwall to protect his collo with. If you fail dealing with his army and he gets a substantial force of stalker/collossi then your best bet is to expand alot and attack everywhere the protoss ball isn't, go basetrade instead of trying to defend cause you just can't beat a stalker collossi army unless you have completely overwhelming numbers. as for Roach/hydra/corruptor vs muta ling i'd say in a straight up engagement R/H/C is your best bet but on larger maps ling/muta might be more effective due to mobility cause even with R/H/C winning a straight up fight against collossi is still fucking hard Thank you very much for the advice. I will base trade now instead of wasting my troops against the inevitable. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On November 29 2010 15:05 zak wrote: Thank you very much for the advice. I will base trade now instead of wasting my troops against the inevitable. Before you do that, remember that if you're gonna' trade, you have to be able to engage and kill his army eventually... | ||
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
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ktimekiller
United States690 Posts
I've been working on this compendium for a very short time, so it is neither refined nor extensive, but I want to see how other Zergs view some of the ideas that I've gathered. Because it was made for my own use, some things aren't totally exemplified or detailed on, so if something seems weird or if you do not understand something that I've written, I will try to clarify. Feedback on whether you think the listed things are viable or not would be great. + Show Spoiler + Matchup ZvZ • Blings – open natural close or far o If opponent early Roach, cancel speed + nest and drone to Roach • Roaches – closed natural close o Transition into Roach + Hydra + Infestor Roach + Infestor + Broods • Hatch first – closed natural far o Tons of Spines o Standard Roach play • Muta – double hatch first close by air o Ton of Spines to hold all-in o If unsuccessful, expand into higher econ Roach play ZvP – Always have Spines at natural • Hydra – close by air o If he went air first, transition into Burrow Roach + Hydra + NP Infestor o If he did not go air first, transition into Roach + Hydra + Corruptor • Ling + Roach + Extra Queens – close o Transition into Roach + Hydra + NP Infestor • Muta – far by all o Once map control is taken, go Ling + Burrow Roach + Muta or Corruptor Drag around an Overseer to kill observers for burrow o If he goes air, go Ling+ Hydra + Muta or Corruptor ZvT • Spines + Muta + Extra Queen – close by air o Transition into Bling + Roach + Muta Transition into Ling + Roach + Infestor + Broods • Bling + Roach – 1 base rax o Transition into Bling + Roach + NP Infestor Transition into Bling + Roach + NP Infestor + Ultra • Early spines at natural – 2 rax all-in • Bling + Roach + NP Infestor – far by all (mid game push) o Extra Queens early game o Transition into Bing + Roach + NP Infestor + Ultra Map LT v T • Roach drop into Ling + Bling + Roach + Muta Random Notes • Unless ZvZ, make sure to have many Lings to support Roaches | ||
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VAGZ
574 Posts
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pyrogal
3 Posts
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
How the hell do you deal with a terran that go mass marine and tanks? I'm around 2k rating zerg and i haven't managed to win against a terran that uses this composition yet. Siege tanks one shot all your banelings no matter what number you have and marines just slaughter everything else after they have stimmed away from the banes.. im getting so fucking pissed on that unit composition right now. Please need some tips. That is a tough one, probably as much about micro/flanking as unit composition. I find that in this case and if I have the gas to do it I like to sling/bling/muta. Try to pick off tanks with mutas hit and run and then try to use slings and blings to take out marines that come to save tanks. Force him to have to choose, either save the tanks, or stim/micro the marines away from the tanks leaving them exposed for the mutas. My question, not sure if it has been asked or not, but what are people's opinions on creep spread in ZvZ? Aside from connecting bases I haven't been spreading much creep vs. zerg. I just feel if they push my base and I don't spread creep beyond my naturals choke I can fight on creep while they fight off. I guess you can lose potential scouting.. maybe this is obvious but do you find that you aggressively spread creep in ZvZ as much as against the others? Do you just base it on your unit composition? Like if you go mutas no creep, ground units creep more? I can see advantages both ways... | ||
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jackdaleaper
Philippines1216 Posts
That is a tough one, probably as much about micro/flanking as unit composition. I find that in this case and if I have the gas to do it I like to sling/bling/muta. Try to pick off tanks with mutas hit and run and then try to use slings and blings to take out marines that come to save tanks. Force him to have to choose, either save the tanks, or stim/micro the marines away from the tanks leaving them exposed for the mutas. Same thing with me though I sometimes add in a few roaches to distract/tank damage in front while my lings/blings flank. Also, make an effort to spread a lot of creep early on so you and control any xel'naga towers so you can see when the terran pushes out and maybe you can engage his army somewhere open before the tanks seige up. How to fight T as Z in end game where both have 200 armies ? T has seige tanks, thors, repairing scvs, marines and a ton of vikings. Tanks will destroy any zerg ground units and vikings can snipe broodlords easily in 1 shot ( corruptors got short range and will get hit by thors if they come closer. I think that from what I read from previous posts on this thread (sorry can't point to the exact posts) that in any non ZvZ mu, you should do everything not to let your opponent mass up to 200 supply, since his maxed out army will always be more cost effective than your maxed out army (assuming, of course, he's competent in mixing his units). The army comp you mentioned (tank/thor/viking/marine) sounds very gas intensive and should take a long time to reach enough numbers to be effective. You should have been harassing/trading armies while he's massing units to keep your opponent from maxing out. If he does manage to max out, then your best hope will be to engage him far from your base and try to do as much damage, then macro up another army so you can *hopefully* wipe-out the remainder of his army when he does arrive at your base and then counter. Also, for the composition you mentioned, a roach/bling/ling army with some infestors mixed-in works for me roaches for tanks/thors, blings for scvs/marine, lings to flank/tank damage for banelings and infestors for the vikings and to fungal marines for banelings. If he makes too many vikings, your army should roll over his.TL;DR: harass/trade armies so he can't max out, if he does manage to max out try to engage armies far from your base and macro up another army before he arrives. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On December 01 2010 10:54 VAGZ wrote: How the hell do you deal with a terran that go mass marine and tanks? I'm around 2k rating zerg and i haven't managed to win against a terran that uses this composition yet. Siege tanks one shot all your banelings no matter what number you have and marines just slaughter everything else after they have stimmed away from the banes.. im getting so fucking pissed on that unit composition right now. Please need some tips. Here's a VOD of Machine talking about how to deal with this: http://mrbitter.blip.tv/file/4447420/ Part 2: http://mrbitter.blip.tv/file/4446976/ On December 01 2010 11:11 pyrogal wrote: How to fight T as Z in end game where both have 200 armies ? T has seige tanks, thors, repairing scvs, marines and a ton of vikings. Tanks will destroy any zerg ground units and vikings can snipe broodlords easily in 1 shot ( corruptors got short range and will get hit by thors if they come closer. Clide vs Leenock is a series that reveals a lot of answers to this question. Notice now Leenock engages the Terran army. They fight with maxed armies on the Terran side of the map. Terran comes out ahead, but Zerg falls back, and due to its ability to reinforce more quickly, is able to engage again with a 2nd maxed army before T can push into any of his bases. Couple this with constant harassing and back-dooring, and we see how Zerg is able to get ahead in the very late game. Another great example of this is July vs Alive in their final game on Xel'Naga Caverns. + Show Spoiler + Again, we see lots of little engagements on the Terran side of the map while Zerg buys time with harass, and annoying little counters. Eventually Terran ends up making his big push, but if Z is able to delay it long enough, dealing with the army ends up being trivial. | ||
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Dominator1370
United States111 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On December 02 2010 01:00 Dominator1370 wrote: With recent meta-shifts seeming to discourage opening with Muta/ling play in most matchups, I'm finding myself feeling very unsafe about taking a third, as well as having difficulty putting pressure on an opponent with ground-based armies (the two are likely related). Do you have any advice for players moving away from heavy Muta play, particularly with regards to creating pressure and securing expansions? Umm... I think you still really need mutas in ZvT. In ZvP, roach plays are quickly becoming accepted as the safest way to open. Machine on Roaches in ZvP: http://mrbitter.blip.tv/file/4446293/ And mutas haven't really been that great in ZvZ for a while... | ||
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