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On November 14 2010 04:44 Ko1tz wrote: Zerg: I have no clue what to do, ever since the patch the amount of zergs I battle against is so huge, I have no practice with the matchup and I have a feeling that I'm playing a crappy version of rock paper scissors.
I have no idea when to expand, or when to attack, harass...etc. I also have the feeling that when I use mutas they do absolutely nothing, they get owned by mass hydra and queens in no time, but, when I try that hydra queen composition mutas utterly destroy my army.
Roaches seem to die so quick to a mass speeling build, I mostly make 5 only to block my ramp ,but I mean, I can't block my base forever :/
I'm having this issue too. I played 5 games today and all 5 of them are ZvZ, which is easily my worst matchup, ended up only winning 1 of them, which really sucks.
I just dont know how to deal with Zergs. Everyone just seems to get more roaches/mutas out faster than I can. My econ is usually a lot better, but econ doesn't really seem to help me when theres 12 mutas in your base vs your 4.
(I forgot the speed on the lings, but the outcome would have been the same, I think)
The Terran basically goes 1 Barracks and pumps marines. Adds a Factory, pumps Hellions. Adds two Starports, trains 2 banshees and as soon as they are done, he takes all his units and kills me. This is about the fifth time I lose to this build.
I DO want to go 14 hatch. Maybe sacrifice an early overlord and make additional queens asap? Baneling Nest earlier vs the marines? Roaches?
Okay so for the first time in a long time I'm having a bit of trouble vs tosses. Specifcially on close position spawn points or on Steppes. I'll get either 2 stalkers or 2 zealots and 1 stalker pressuring my nat. I've been trying to 14 gas lately while getting an early evo chamber. I expand at around 22 drones. Either way I'm forced to make lings and not drones. I'm behind no in drone count no matter what I do after getting pressured like that.
(I forgot the speed on the lings, but the outcome would have been the same, I think)
Lol, are you kidding me? you forget ling speed and expect to win a game? Just use queens roaches and lings to defend against this kind of push. you should always get a third queen between 35-40 supply, and another one afterwards if he stays inside of his base and you dont know whats coming. If you die to something like this you fucked up in the earlygame against harras (or w/e), you were supplyblocked often (aka your macro sucks) or you forgot to get additional queens.
On November 03 2010 16:58 Alpina wrote: How do you deal with proxy canons behind the mineral line of expansion?
It's very effective even if you don't put hatch first, cause you can't expand very long time.
Early roaches to kill canons? Will put too far behind I think. Getting hidden expansion? Too risky.
Maybe banelings?
Anyone?
Steal his gas is very important. Then next there are a couple of options, im not sure what is best. You can go muta ling and expand elsewhere. This will be good against a late immortal push or against a P who will passively expand, but lose to 4 gate.
You can expand elsewhere and use massling with upgrades to defend against any kind of early push (haven't tested this enough to say how good it is, but it seems ok).
You can go Roaches, get like 8-10 while teching to t2 and then kill the cannons without losing much. Then expand and see what he does.
The whole situation is very complex and i dont know whats best, but on some maps expanding elsewhere seems viable.
I have a huge problem with baneling micro. Specifically vs. T, I go sling, bling and roaches. When the bioball attack comes, my blings are usually ready to rumble... but unfortunately they do very inefficient in terms of cost-benefit.
So, can anyone explain to me, how to micro them right?
I mean do you roll in and let them explode manually? Or do you split and T-move (or A-move) them six by six? Or do you right-click them on a marine in the middle of the bioball?
On November 15 2010 17:25 Antag0nist wrote: I have a huge problem with baneling micro. Specifically vs. T, I go sling, bling and roaches. When the bioball attack comes, my blings are usually ready to rumble... but unfortunately they do very inefficient in terms of cost-benefit.
So, can anyone explain to me, how to micro them right?
I mean do you roll in and let them explode manually? Or do you split and T-move (or A-move) them six by six? Or do you right-click them on a marine in the middle of the bioball?
Thanks for answering.
If you can spare the hotkeys, keep your zerglings and banelings on separate hotkeys. The idea is, you want to use your zerglings to either run past, or flank the marines, using them as a big net to trap the marines, then just use a combination or move command and a-move with the banes.
That's just the ideal situation though. Most times you wont be able to get a perfect flank like that, so just right click the banelings past the marines and let them chase. You don't really even need to a-move them when they are chasing, since they will do damage as they die anyway. When they catch up to the marines be sure to amove them though.
The big idea though is to be more careful with your banes, the absolute last thing you want to do is just a-move your lings and banes and hope for the best, since any terran that can micro will have his baneling fodder in the back behind tanks/maruaders.
How can you get into a good position macro-wise while fending off constant aggression from toss in a mutaling build? If toss can supply pretty consistent pressure with stalkers, speedlings don't really allow me to stay where I need to be drone wise while fending off the aggression and toss can have a colossus knocking on my front door by the time my spire is JUST finishing, and I'll quickly fall.
Heres a replay so you can see what I'm talking about. [url blocked]
On November 15 2010 15:01 Advocado wrote: Is there any definitive map for training zerg macro (larva inject timings, managing creep, more than 1 base etc.)
I feel like my mechanics are really holding my play back in just about any game. I'm low diamond and don't feel comfortable at all in terms of macro.
Cheers and sorry if there is a better thread or one already on the subject.
Just keep playing normal games, its the best practise imo.
On November 16 2010 05:03 Arisen wrote: How can you get into a good position macro-wise while fending off constant aggression from toss in a mutaling build? If toss can supply pretty consistent pressure with stalkers, speedlings don't really allow me to stay where I need to be drone wise while fending off the aggression and toss can have a colossus knocking on my front door by the time my spire is JUST finishing, and I'll quickly fall.
Heres a replay so you can see what I'm talking about. [url blocked]
If he has a collossi at your base when your spire is just done, youre simply doing it wrong (talking about 2 base vs 2 base), against 1 base you shouldnt be going muta ling, as it is terribly weak against pretty much any random 4 gate, so ling roach is better there. But in general muta ling builds are very weak to early pushes, so you might want to consider going roaches if you expect a 6 gate push or something.
On November 16 2010 05:03 Arisen wrote: How can you get into a good position macro-wise while fending off constant aggression from toss in a mutaling build? If toss can supply pretty consistent pressure with stalkers, speedlings don't really allow me to stay where I need to be drone wise while fending off the aggression and toss can have a colossus knocking on my front door by the time my spire is JUST finishing, and I'll quickly fall.
Heres a replay so you can see what I'm talking about. [url blocked]
Short answer: You can't.
For muta/ling to work you have to convince toss to leave you alone for a little while. This is done by either threatening his front with slings, or by hiding behind a wall of spines.
Honestly, the toss metagame has evolved to the point that going muta/ling is very dangerous on most maps. You really need a natural with a very narrow, defensible choke. Something like Lost Temple or Shakuras Plateau. On other maps, its just too easy for toss too exploit the terrain in ways that Zerg just can't defend with only spines and lings. Even Scrap Station is hard to muta/ling on because of how far apart the bases are.
Muta/Ling is still my hands down favorite build vs Toss... Unfortunately, getting to a point in the game where muta/ling becomes potent is very difficult without roaches.
What sticks out to me is that at the moment before he attacks (8:00), he has the same number of workers as me (26) and a significantly bigger army... around 1000 minerals and 450 gas bigger.
What should I have done differently? I attempted Dimagga's build... +1 zerglings pumped around 30 supply, but I didn't have nearly enough when he arrived.
Is there any way to have an equal economy and army size when facing a 4 gate?
Lately i've handled pretty well with ZvP's whith roach/hidra army, but my late game was a complete slaughter: the toss had always the perfect army composition, and it was finally mass stalker/colossus. I sent corruptor/ling but he just killed it of in less than a blik. What should of been best for me to do?
I've had an epiphany now after a month of zergplay. am almost back to a 1:1 wlr out of 400 games. I started winning when I stopped using a BO. Zerg is more about feel than the other races. Our production is reactionary and should remain that way.
MINERALS. You want to only mine minerals. The only time you want to start gas is when you need tech. Which tech? what did you scout over at the T/P's base? Gateways- roaches Factory-roaches Starport: Hydras Rax:Blings
You better have a lot of lings and hatches as soon as you start feeling like a baller. You will need gas so the extractors are welcome always. then depending on how the game feels>
Lair: you get more map control later speedlings: you get less map control quicker
Spire after one of those.
Don't build any defending army untill you are seeing an imminent attack.
If you have your larva on tap, 1-2 extra hatches over 2 bases. take a third derpderp.
If you kept scouting/ you will be so far ahead on your macro with minerals out the wazoo.
Only gas up after you see a need for it. The oponent will have less minerals than you if you do this.
This zerg playstyle is a balloon. Your force the gas. The macro is the balloon material. as soon as you need a force on the feild. your huge macro can instantly use more gas than the opponent can muster.
Good scouting can prevent them from cutting your baloon before you use it to blow them over.
All the particulars: BO's etc are discretionary. The main idea is just to pull up as much mineral power as possible before you start getting any gas at all.
Dont follow BO's. Army compositions are willy nilly unless good scouting occurs.
How to hell do you deal with Protoss who forge first and fast expend ??? I cant match the macro, early game cannon rush wreck me if im careless, cant go to midgame with 2 base cause they will overpower me, and if I commit to try and break them and fail I pretty much lost. How do you guys deal with FE'in protosses ?
Nydus if they aren't too careful. Muta/ling with spines up front if they are. Pray they don't attack before mutas are out. Try ling runby into natural. Take early 3rd.
What sticks out to me is that at the moment before he attacks (8:00), he has the same number of workers as me (26) and a significantly bigger army... around 1000 minerals and 450 gas bigger.
What should I have done differently? I attempted Dimagga's build... +1 zerglings pumped around 30 supply, but I didn't have nearly enough when he arrived.
Is there any way to have an equal economy and army size when facing a 4 gate?
For starters, Xel-Naga Caverns is just a great map for 4 gate. Even the pros lose to well executed 4 gates there.
Dimaga's +1 build used to be really awesome. I used to do it all the time. In today's meta-game, though, Toss makes too many sentries for it to continue being viable.
The only real advice I can give you is the standard 4 gate defense advice: Make spines and slings until your Roach Warren finishes, then crank out the roaches. Its not always going to be easy, but that's just part of dealing with 4 gate.
On November 21 2010 06:09 Doctor Zoidberg wrote: Lately i've handled pretty well with ZvP's whith roach/hidra army, but my late game was a complete slaughter: the toss had always the perfect army composition, and it was finally mass stalker/colossus. I sent corruptor/ling but he just killed it of in less than a blik. What should of been best for me to do?
Late game, especially when going roach/hydra, the cold, hard truth is that Toss is much much more cost effective.
If you start roach/hydra, you want to persist with roach hydra. You want to put up a spire shortly after your 3rd finishes, and work on eventually teching to hydra/brood.
Going roach/hydra means you're trying to win in the mid/game, or set him back enough that its impossible for him to amass his death ball before your tier 3 kicks in. If you're not successful in the mid-game, life gets really bad really quickly.
On November 21 2010 06:36 Bucky0Hare wrote: I've had an epiphany now after a month of zergplay. am almost back to a 1:1 wlr out of 400 games. I started winning when I stopped using a BO. Zerg is more about feel than the other races. Our production is reactionary and should remain that way.
MINERALS. You want to only mine minerals. The only time you want to start gas is when you need tech. Which tech? what did you scout over at the T/P's base? Gateways- roaches Factory-roaches Starport: Hydras Rax:Blings
You better have a lot of lings and hatches as soon as you start feeling like a baller. You will need gas so the extractors are welcome always. then depending on how the game feels>
Lair: you get more map control later speedlings: you get less map control quicker
Spire after one of those.
Don't build any defending army untill you are seeing an imminent attack.
If you have your larva on tap, 1-2 extra hatches over 2 bases. take a third derpderp.
If you kept scouting/ you will be so far ahead on your macro with minerals out the wazoo.
Only gas up after you see a need for it. The oponent will have less minerals than you if you do this.
This zerg playstyle is a balloon. Your force the gas. The macro is the balloon material. as soon as you need a force on the feild. your huge macro can instantly use more gas than the opponent can muster.
Good scouting can prevent them from cutting your baloon before you use it to blow them over.
All the particulars: BO's etc are discretionary. The main idea is just to pull up as much mineral power as possible before you start getting any gas at all.
Dont follow BO's. Army compositions are willy nilly unless good scouting occurs.
I can't get on board with this.
Yes, Zerg is reactionary. Yes, their strength is in their ability to quickly tech switch, etc., but you can't just go into every game expecting to feel your way to a win.
Build orders are precise, practiced, and potent. I would wager that the problem you're having with build orders isn't that their too restrictive, but that you're not quite nailing the execution.
On November 21 2010 07:57 b0oyah wrote: How to hell do you deal with Protoss who forge first and fast expend ??? I cant match the macro, early game cannon rush wreck me if im careless, cant go to midgame with 2 base cause they will overpower me, and if I commit to try and break them and fail I pretty much lost. How do you guys deal with FE'in protosses ?
Forge expand is like a license to muta/ling. Most toss will be expecting it though.
If you see them go forge first, obviously you want to make sure you don't die to cannon shenanigans, but once you've dodged that bullet, just drone until your lair's done. You literally won't need any units before then. If toss wants to poke out of his base, just drop a couple spines. He won't have any army until the mid-game.
As for keeping up in macro - When I see aggressive expansion from toss, I like to add a 3rd hatch in base. This lets me crank out that many more drones leading to a stronger mid-game.
EPT
