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On November 01 2010 03:05 red_b wrote: Question: is Zerg for me?
There is the whole Zerg thing about knowing when to drone and when to make units. I played Toss in the first half of the beta and while I dont really like the playstyle I never had issues with getting outmacroed. I felt like then I would lose because I didnt scout well or I was being hurdy durdy.
I feel like Im not "getting" it. Thinking about switching.
I dont think Zerg is weak, nor do I dislike the playstyle, it just may not be for me.
Also, if I go Muta and my ling/bling army cant stop a timing attack and my Mutas are in their base, should I base race? Come back?
I feel like that since I have just gotten the game again and am playing people who arent super amazing, that they are like 10 times more likely to try and base trade and I feel like I lose every time.
Again, fast forward to 25 min. That's when iNcontroL comes on.
Here's how ZvP works when you go muta/ling.
You go mutas, you establish map control, and you start harassing toss.
Toss either defends well, forcing a long macro game, or takes significant economic damage while macroing up.
If you do enough damage, toss is left with only one option: March his army over to your base and try to win.
When Toss does this he's effectively making his last all-in attack. If you defend it, you win.
So to answer your question directly: No, don't base race. Come back and use everything you have to stop his push.
Also, as you're harassing, you need to be adding spines periodically. You need to realize that as you do more and more damage, it becomes more and more likely that Toss is going to go all in. When that push comes, you're going to have a much better chance of defending if you've got a wall of spines to help.
On November 01 2010 03:07 Zvendetta wrote: Q1) When I open hatch first and build two queens at each hatch, which queen should poop a creep tumor and when? If you just have them constantly spewing larvae you won't have enough minerals to spend those larvae within the first few minutes of the game. In this instance, how should I time the creep connection of my bases?
Q2) Is scouting the fast spire and building emergency spores the best reaction to onebase muta when I open hatch first and am hardcore droning? Q3) What are your thoughts on everyone changing races? Due to the amount of ZVZ's i've been playing, and facing people's heavy stubbornness so much, I honestly have been thinking of switching to terran! Q4) How do you stay motivated as zerg when you are on a losing streak of matches where you should be winning? Thanks
1: It depends. Weirdly enough, if you hatch first against some kind of aggressive opening like 14/14 baneling, or 1base roach, you actually don't want to spread creep in your nat. In that situation just place one to connect your main and nat, and maybe a few more to spread creep around your main to help your queens vs mutas.
2: You really shouldn't be taken by surprise by mutalisks in ZvZ. You'll probably never actually scout the spire in ZvZ, since queens will chase your ovie out, but just keep an overlord over the other zerg's nat. If he's not taking his nat, it's pretty obvious mutalisks are coming. In which case, just keep making queens, and if you still feel uncomfortable, add a spore or two later.
3: If anything, all the people changing races just makes it easier for the zergs who toughed it out before the patch.
I'm going to be switching over to random most likely, and Zerg is my weakest race, so I've been laddering with them the last couple days. I annihilate terran players, do okay against protoss, and lose all of my ZvZs.
Anyway, I have a question: - Is there a universally safe roach opener in ZvZ I can open with? I'm not too interested in baneling wars, and I'd like it to be early enough that I don't die to 8pools but late enough that it's not cheesy and doesn't hamstring my econ. Is the matchup so variable on different maps that this isn't possible or is there a standard-esque roach opener in ZvZ?
This thread is like 37 pages long so if this was asked somewhere else, let me know please.
here's 2 replays i played vs 2 diamonds. i made huge mistakes during the game, i didn't even realize that i did them. the first game i lose to marinethor spam, i let him kill pretty much ALL my drones for no actual reason at all and i let him delay my spire cause i thought it was intelligent to put it where i knew he was gonna drop (since i saw double rax i was expecting drops to come)
the second game i met a 4 gate and i just couldn't do anything against it then i went on to spam roaches vs mass stalkers after i lost my main
what should i have done better?
also, should i go for 1 basic build against each match up? right now i'm VERY flexible, my basic stuff is 14 pool vZ, 14 pool 14 hatch vP and 14 hatch vT. that's it, i don't know what else i'm gonna do, i just do. what 3 basic BO's should i go for? noob friendly and all
On November 01 2010 07:14 iEchoic wrote: I'm going to be switching over to random most likely, and Zerg is my weakest race, so I've been laddering with them the last couple days. I annihilate terran players, do okay against protoss, and lose all of my ZvZs.
Anyway, I have a question: - Is there a universally safe roach opener in ZvZ I can open with? I'm not too interested in baneling wars, and I'd like it to be early enough that I don't die to 8pools but late enough that it's not cheesy and doesn't hamstring my econ. Is the matchup so variable on different maps that this isn't possible or is there a standard-esque roach opener in ZvZ?
This thread is like 37 pages long so if this was asked somewhere else, let me know please.
Map size is super important. Bigger, 4 player maps like LT or Meta it's easy to open roach, be safe, and I find it generally becomes more macro oriented. Xel naga caverns is possible.
However, on small maps liek steppes (obviously) or maps with big ramps like scrap, you might as well just go baneling wars and do safer 11 or 12 pools because cheese is more likely.
On October 31 2010 21:42 aPsychonaut wrote: I haven't played 1v1 since mid-august. I have 600 pts(pros had 800pts around that time) in diamond. What are the new viable builds that have been discovered since this time? I haven't played for two patches :O
On November 01 2010 03:05 red_b wrote: Question: is Zerg for me?
There is the whole Zerg thing about knowing when to drone and when to make units. I played Toss in the first half of the beta and while I dont really like the playstyle I never had issues with getting outmacroed. I felt like then I would lose because I didnt scout well or I was being hurdy durdy.
I feel like Im not "getting" it. Thinking about switching.
I dont think Zerg is weak, nor do I dislike the playstyle, it just may not be for me.
Also, if I go Muta and my ling/bling army cant stop a timing attack and my Mutas are in their base, should I base race? Come back?
I feel like that since I have just gotten the game again and am playing people who arent super amazing, that they are like 10 times more likely to try and base trade and I feel like I lose every time.
Again, fast forward to 25 min. That's when iNcontroL comes on.
Here's how ZvP works when you go muta/ling.
You go mutas, you establish map control, and you start harassing toss.
Toss either defends well, forcing a long macro game, or takes significant economic damage while macroing up.
If you do enough damage, toss is left with only one option: March his army over to your base and try to win.
When Toss does this he's effectively making his last all-in attack. If you defend it, you win.
So to answer your question directly: No, don't base race. Come back and use everything you have to stop his push.
Also, as you're harassing, you need to be adding spines periodically. You need to realize that as you do more and more damage, it becomes more and more likely that Toss is going to go all in. When that push comes, you're going to have a much better chance of defending if you've got a wall of spines to help.
Thank you for recording and sharing this vid, and of course props to iNcontroL. I learned a lot of good stuff vP in from this, even if your level/the level of the coaching is a good chunk above mine.
I have a question regarding the video for you though: In a few games(last one for example) you try to push your successful harrass advantage by double expanding. To me this seems really risky and based on that your opponent will not find out what you are doing. Obviously you want to go and grab your third, but fourth as well? It seems like the timing window where you might deal enough damage to the protoss to go all-in does nowhere near let you get those up, let alone saturate them. I can understand that in case the harrass is shut down effectively, a 2 base lead is awesome, but if you drone up to saturate both, I have a hard time seeing the zerg amass enough to keep the inevitable gateway push that is coming, be it an all-in counter or not(this is ofc assuming that the protoss isn't satisfied with holding off your mutas and just try and macro back from his severe disadvantage)
So really what my question is: do you try to double expand while harrassing as a standard, and what is the reason behind it? Does it pay off usually? Maybe it didn't just work out because you played a high-caliber player like iNcontroL, or maybe you just morphed into Mr.Greedy
And Kudos for replying to this thread so actively.
On November 01 2010 03:05 red_b wrote: Question: is Zerg for me?
There is the whole Zerg thing about knowing when to drone and when to make units. I played Toss in the first half of the beta and while I dont really like the playstyle I never had issues with getting outmacroed. I felt like then I would lose because I didnt scout well or I was being hurdy durdy.
I feel like Im not "getting" it. Thinking about switching.
I dont think Zerg is weak, nor do I dislike the playstyle, it just may not be for me.
Also, if I go Muta and my ling/bling army cant stop a timing attack and my Mutas are in their base, should I base race? Come back?
I feel like that since I have just gotten the game again and am playing people who arent super amazing, that they are like 10 times more likely to try and base trade and I feel like I lose every time.
Again, fast forward to 25 min. That's when iNcontroL comes on.
Here's how ZvP works when you go muta/ling.
You go mutas, you establish map control, and you start harassing toss.
Toss either defends well, forcing a long macro game, or takes significant economic damage while macroing up.
If you do enough damage, toss is left with only one option: March his army over to your base and try to win.
When Toss does this he's effectively making his last all-in attack. If you defend it, you win.
So to answer your question directly: No, don't base race. Come back and use everything you have to stop his push.
Also, as you're harassing, you need to be adding spines periodically. You need to realize that as you do more and more damage, it becomes more and more likely that Toss is going to go all in. When that push comes, you're going to have a much better chance of defending if you've got a wall of spines to help.
Thank you for recording and sharing this vid, and of course props to iNcontroL. I learned a lot of good stuff vP in from this, even if your level/the level of the coaching is a good chunk above mine.
I have a question regarding the video for you though: In a few games(last one for example) you try to push your successful harrass advantage by double expanding. To me this seems really risky and based on that your opponent will not find out what you are doing. Obviously you want to go and grab your third, but fourth as well? It seems like the timing window where you might deal enough damage to the protoss to go all-in does nowhere near let you get those up, let alone saturate them. I can understand that in case the harrass is shut down effectively, a 2 base lead is awesome, but if you drone up to saturate both, I have a hard time seeing the zerg amass enough to keep the inevitable gateway push that is coming, be it an all-in counter or not(this is ofc assuming that the protoss isn't satisfied with holding off your mutas and just try and macro back from his severe disadvantage)
So really what my question is: do you try to double expand while harrassing as a standard, and what is the reason behind it? Does it pay off usually? Maybe it didn't just work out because you played a high-caliber player like iNcontroL, or maybe you just morphed into Mr.Greedy
And Kudos for replying to this thread so actively.
//Chma
I still have tons of holes in my game. The truth is, the reason I double expod is because my macro is far from even being mediocre, and I wound up with more money than I was able to spend.
That said, I don't think that a double expo is necessarily a bad thing.
1st: If toss walks all the way across the map to either of the new expos, he's essentially giving me a free pass to go do more damage in his main. The presence of muta gives me enough map control for those expansions to be safe. If he sends a small force of units to go kill the expos, mutas just go clean it up, no prob. If his whole army goes, then toss says "bye-bye" to all his probes.
2nd: You don't have to saturate those bases. Let's be completely real: You'll never have 4 mining, saturated bases, in any game. That'd be over 100 drones (assuming 20ish drones =one saturated base). Instead, we want to saturate 2-3 bases, and just mine gas at any extras.
3rd: When your macro is bad (like mine) one of the easiest remedies for it is to just add more hatcheries. Your unit production cycles won't be as crisp as Idra's, but you'll still get about as many units in about as much time, just at a higher initial cost to yourself. (from the extra hatch(s). Furthermore, we've pretty well established that mutas give you map control... If you have map control, and if you know where the toss army is at all times, and if you need extra hatcheries, then why wouldn't you drop them at expansions rather than just throwing them up in your main?
On October 31 2010 21:42 aPsychonaut wrote: I haven't played 1v1 since mid-august. I have 600 pts(pros had 800pts around that time) in diamond. What are the new viable builds that have been discovered since this time? I haven't played for two patches :O
These forums are teeming with common builds. In general, fast expand in every matchup. Muta/Ling is good in anything but ZvZ. Infestors rule the mirror.
I have a question about microing a sling bling muta infestor army versus a marine/thor (or mm) tank army (Or really any variation thereof). I put my hatches under 4 and my queens under 5. So I have to juggle 4 different unit types with 3 keys while also h-stopping my mutas. Lately, I've just been parking my mutas at the back and hotkeying my slings on 1, blings on 2 and infestors on 3. After I knock out the majority of marines I bring in my mutas manually to clean up the tanks/thors.
So I'm just wondering what the proper way to micro all this is. Do I send the slings in first? How do I micro the banelings? Do I just 1a the lings while right clicking around with the blings and FGing with the infestors?
Also, against mass marine tanks what's your usual composition? Once he gets a critical number of tanks, like over 5-6 I feel that sling bling infestors starts to fail, and a lot of the time I'm still jus teching to hive. In the past I would jsut drop roaches and blings on an army like that, but I really want to get good with infestors and blings.
That's a video of me playing while iNcontroL coaches me on ZvP. I think its an excellent example of how to approach the ZvP matchup with the added benefit of commentary from an SC2 pro.
Even though I'm only gold level that video taught me so much.
I've been avoiding the use of mutas against protoss with the fear that stalkers will hammer them. But the video really drove home that philosophy of attacking their base as soon as they move out.
On November 01 2010 21:10 guitarizt wrote: Are there any good zerg rep packs up besides http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/riptide/liquidweekly/LW13_HayprO_Ladder_Reps.zip ? I've been grabbing reps off of sc2reps but I'm finding it hard to figure out how people are holding off the millions of things other races can do to zerg.
On November 01 2010 23:36 Warrior Madness wrote: I have a question about microing a sling bling muta infestor army versus a marine/thor (or mm) tank army (Or really any variation thereof). I put my hatches under 4 and my queens under 5. So I have to juggle 4 different unit types with 3 keys while also h-stopping my mutas. Lately, I've just been parking my mutas at the back and hotkeying my slings on 1, blings on 2 and infestors on 3. After I knock out the majority of marines I bring in my mutas manually to clean up the tanks/thors.
So I'm just wondering what the proper way to micro all this is. Do I send the slings in first? How do I micro the banelings? Do I just 1a the lings while right clicking around with the blings and FGing with the infestors?
Also, against mass marine tanks what's your usual composition? Once he gets a critical number of tanks, like over 5-6 I feel that sling bling infestors starts to fail, and a lot of the time I'm still jus teching to hive. In the past I would jsut drop roaches and blings on an army like that, but I really want to get good with infestors and blings.
I set my hotkeys up the same way. When I get in that situation, I just hotkey my infestors with my zerglings. They'll move with the army, and you can cast with them without having to do anything special. You might have to manually select them from time to time to move them away from the fighting, though.
Ideally, you'll attack from opposite sides of the enemy force with your slings and blings, and yes, you'll do it by just 1aing the lings, and manually moving your banes into position.
Against tanks, sling/bling/muta is still fine. You just have to be much more careful about when you engage. You have to time your attack with the Terran player unsieging. This is very remniscent of BW PvT, actually.
Again, fast forward to 25 min. That's when iNcontroL comes on.
That is by far, THE most useful video I have ever watched. I feel so super confident in ZvP now just from watching that. I'm only mid level diamond and those guys clearly had far better game control than I do but I still learned a huge amount from it. So thanks to you for sharing it
Hey. I am a low ranked player, still learning the ropes. I recently shifted from Protoss to Zerg. Now I find it the hardest to counter a 6pool early, especially if I am going for economy. Left and right you hear that people use their workers, but I feel uncomfortable with using them.
Therefore I had the following solution in one match, I just wonder if I can make this more economy efficient?
I basicly end up making my pool on 7 supply, sacrificing two drones after for quick spines. Positioned them to cover the entrance to my workers pretty much. Then 6 zerglings before leaving the defenses and shifting to regular building.
Im kinda out of ideas on a build my practice partner does a lot.
I am a platinum zerg so not very good but I seem to win a lot on the ladder lately because i have been practicing a lot with my practice partner. My ZvZ is prob the weakest but thats besides the point.
my practice partner is actually a 2100d Terran so I can imagine its just because of better overall play, both macro and micro wise.
Usually he's just toying with me either doing all kinds of thor drops or helion into banshee or straight up banshee or 5rax marines no gas.
I seem to be able to hold off most of these things now since i have been practicing a lot against it. however I seem to lose to this particular build all the time:
helion into banshee or just straight up 2 port banshee.
I 15 hatch 14 pool 17 gas 16 queen, couple of zerglings for scouting. around 25 supply if i haven't seen anything yet sac an overlord. now I see the 1 or 2 port banshee. I either make extra queens if i'm late or if i'm early i'll go for lair tech muta or hydra. Ok so he attacks and sees that in this case i'm prepared and retreats. switches ports to reactors and pumps vikings while expanding.
now one of these things happens: he keeps pumping vikings with later some banshees and even gets a raven or 2 in there eventually. I keep massing muta. well muta costs more gas and loses 1v1 to viking so not gr8. When I do have more muta's than he has vikings but he has a raven with HSM I have to retreat every time he fires and he can get free shots off with his superiour range. since I can't do much he takes another expo and gets that extra gas to win. I try to expo to but he just chases me away with HSM if I want to defend it while his banshees clean it up. I tried this 3 games and had 40 muta to his 32 ish viking with raven support. I was actually amazed how he got all that gas but seems to work. this was a 3 base vs 3 base i think.
If i go hydra which i tried then after similar build happened, he try's to deny my expo's as well, skips the raven most of the time and goes more (cloaked) banshees with viking support. I can hold this off most of the time in base but whenever i move out he can snipe my overseers, cloak and kill me.
Is it general macro/micro or is there something wrong with my counter?
On November 02 2010 02:23 MrBitter wrote: I set my hotkeys up the same way. When I get in that situation, I just hotkey my infestors with my zerglings. They'll move with the army, and you can cast with them without having to do anything special. You might have to manually select them from time to time to move them away from the fighting, though.
Ideally, you'll attack from opposite sides of the enemy force with your slings and blings, and yes, you'll do it by just 1aing the lings, and manually moving your banes into position.
Against tanks, sling/bling/muta is still fine. You just have to be much more careful about when you engage. You have to time your attack with the Terran player unsieging. This is very remniscent of BW PvT, actually.
Ah thanks. This has actually helped me a lot. Controlling my army is a lot easier now. That and also waiting until the tanks are unseiged helps a lot. I still have some trouble though fighting a marine tank thor (1 or 2)/raven army. Especially if he has a lot of tanks that he'll slowly leap frog with. But they;ll only have that much stuff if their hellions/banshees in the early game did a lot of damage to my economy.
I have another question, how do you usually open in zvt? I've always liked going straight to mutas (making a roach warren if I see a lot of hellions) but lately I've seen a few zergs opening with an early roach warren. They'll make like 2 zerglings early on and delay speed for a while and just make 3-4 roaches instead for defence or for early pressure.
Anyone have a good mass roach build? Because seriously, I need like one standard build that is effective and I think roaches are it. It's only weak to mass speedlings, really, and not even by much.
In my past 30 games, I have 9 losses. Of those 23, I have 2 losses to P, 0 to T, and a whomping 7 to Zerg. Granted, I play a lot more ZvZ's nowadays. Still, I'm winning way more against P, I literally cannot lose to T because I always manage to get into midgame strong, but ZvZ feels so odd to me because I don't feel as good playing by feel. I did a few mass roach things and won them, so I feel it might be good for me.
EPT
