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I've got some ZvT questions, most pertaining to muta/ling/bling vs that thor/hellion/marine build that seems to be the default response now.
How do you guys estimate when the Terran is going to move out? Stuff like this doesn't seem to be as nailed down as it was in BW, and it seems like zerg needs completely different responses to virtually the same terran build when it's delayed 2-3 minutes.
I've never really been that great at judging stuff like this, dating back to BW. But at least in BW it seemed alot easier to telling when a terran is moving out based on their production buildings. I think the crux of my question has to do with when you guys decide to start investing in infestors. I've lost a couple games recently where I had a nice lead, simply because I guess wrong on the terrans attack timing. I thought he would move out fairly early, so I made my infestor pit, but kept pouring all my gas into mutas/banes and ground ups, so I wouldn't get hit during the minute or two window that opens when you dump 500-600 gas into infestors and hive.
I started favoring lair heavy play a month ago when I was consistenly losing to timing attack that hit me before my infestors had 75 energy. Instead, I would just keeping up pumping muta/ling/bling while upgrading, and then start my hive and infestors once I dealt with the terrans first army. However, sometimes when I do this, Terran will sit on 2 base until he's 200/200 and then move out, which leaves me stuck on 200/200 lingbling muta, which isn't the best unit comp. to be maxed with.
Anyway, my question boils down to, how do you guys decide when it's safe to start investing in infestors? Are the any give aways in T's build that let you know when he's likely to move out? That timing window really seems like the point in the game when zerg is the absolute weakest, much like the defiler timing window in BW.
Random questions: Do you ever build a 2nd spire in an obscure location so you can tech to broodlords safely? Most of the time Terran will scan my original spire after Hive to check for GS, and it seems like the extra 200gas might be worth it if it means the terran doesn't have 10 vikings waiting for you by the time they're done.
When is it prudent to get the infestor +25 energy upgrade before making your 1st infestors? I've seen idra do this a few times.
Do you ever take a 4th base while T is massing to 200/200? Normally I'll take a really far away base as my 4th and just mine gas from it in this situation, and just let it die if he finds it, but the game I'm referring to was on Steppes, where that's not really possible. I guess i could have take the rock protected base?
I got a ZvT question too: On most maps i start with a standard 14gas 14pool 20hatch Most of the time ill play 2 hatch muta.
But how can I counter the mass thor/ignite hellion timing attack. I tried:
-speedling/baneling/muta: speedlings just get raped by the hellions, banelings are useless, mutas loose against thors because i just cant get enough out
-mutas with upgrades: can take out the thors thanks to the magic box, but he meanwhile can run his hellions in my base/expos and kill all drones
adding infestors also doesnt do much. its too early for ultras. a techswitch to roaches will put me behind i guess
I have tried it, with a 10 minute benchmark against a very easy computer
I did not find it to be better, but rather worse.
Anyone else care to try it out, or explain to me how it might be good?
That's funny, I inadvertently did this build the last game I was in. I was on kulas vs a Terran and I was going to open 14 hatch when he scouts me. Then I'm like "well shit", because I forgot.. it's Kulas Ravine.. one early reaper can give me a helluva headache. Scouting his base didnt reveal much other than a tech labbed barracks and a second rax. So I threw down the hatchery in my main and expo'd around the 22-25 food mark. I did have a TON of larva but I wasn't playing as strong as I could have (ended up having a ton of cash too).
I don't think it's bad at all. Reminds me of basically a standard open from Zerg in Brood war. Not quite as early an expo but still 3 hatches between two bases. I think it has potential.
So here's a bit on how I've been dealing with T's that go hellion/thor + whatever
Lately, when I scout factory, I've been going roach warren + evo chamber immediately. Obviously we need the roaches to deal with hellions, and I've been going evo, because it gives me a source of detection if T makes a cloaked banshee transition.
Question 1: Does the early evo chamber even make sense? My logic is it gives me detection if I need it, and early upgrades if I don't. Still, its too early to really warrant spending the gas on any upgrades, and if they don't go banshee, its almost entirely wasted.
As they tech up to Thor, I've found that going muta is really, really hard. If we invest heavily in the mutas, we've not got enough of a ground army to cope with the death-ball, and Thor+marines is bad news for any number of magic boxed mutas.
So, instead, I've been skipping muta and going straight to infestor... Neural Parasite is so bad these days, but I've been researching it anyway. Any time an expensive factory unit pushes out too far, I'll try to grab it. Sometimes it pays off. Others, its just lollerskates.
Question 2: Is skipping mutas the right idea?
Question 3: Neural Parasite is pretty fail, right?
After that, I'm basically playing a mass roach stall until ultras.
Question 4: Is that the right end game tech? Broodlords feel like they'd be kinda good, but if I'm skipping muta, the spire tech takes soo long to build.
I'm a fellow zerg player, and I'm having trouble against Protoss who opt for a fast expansion/walling off my natural. Provided is a replay of what I mean.
Any useful advice or strategy would be greatly appreciated.
On September 29 2010 17:35 exShinra wrote: I'll try to make this short as possible.
I'm a fellow zerg player, and I'm having trouble against Protoss who opt for a fast expansion/walling off my natural. Provided is a replay of what I mean.
Any useful advice or strategy would be greatly appreciated.
Toss getting his expo down before Zerg is really tough to deal with. Dealing with the pylon+cannon wall is pretty obnoxious too. If you watch many replays from top players, you'll notice that damn near all of them are going 14 hatch in ZvP, and that they bring two drones down when they go to expand. One for the hatchery, and another to be set on patrol below the ramp.
The first ZvP in Batch 1 is an example of what to do when you actually get stuck inside. All the other ZvPs show 14 hatch, and good ramp protection.
If the pylon wall goes up, and you do get blocked in your base, you're going to be in a pretty damn shitty situation. Personally, when it happens to me, I just go all-in, because playing from behind against a good macro toss is pretty stupid.
If you can keep him from getting both pylons up, pulling 4 drones to kill cannons, and 1 more to chase his probe can buy you the time you need to get lings out.
Other than that, the best advice for dealing with pylon walls is to just not let it happen.
Oh also, are there any builds that, if scouted, allows me to just drone like crazy? or should i always be doing that anyway
- 600 diam if it matters, I probably sound noob
Any time the other guy fast expands, you've got a free pass to drone at will.
Your droning is really proportionate to what you scout. If you see that he's not cranking out tons of units, then you're safe to drone. If he's looking like he wants to be aggressive, you need to get some defenses in place.
There's a great quote from Saracen somewhere (I wish I could find it. Halp Saracen?) that goes into pretty good detail on when you should be droning, and when you should be combat units.
I have tried it, with a 10 minute benchmark against a very easy computer
I did not find it to be better, but rather worse.
Anyone else care to try it out, or explain to me how it might be good?
Why in-base hatch at 14 and expand at 17 though?
I was under the impression that the point of hatching in base was to play more safely while having a bigger larva production, then later on (25-30 supply) expand and Maynard a bunch of drones.
I have tried it, with a 10 minute benchmark against a very easy computer
I did not find it to be better, but rather worse.
Anyone else care to try it out, or explain to me how it might be good?
Why in-base hatch at 14 and expand at 17 though?
I was under the impression that the point of hatching in base was to play more safely while having a bigger larva production, then later on (25-30 supply) expand and Maynard a bunch of drones.
expand at 30 or later. just before main is completely saturated (~30 drones incl gas). If enemy is passive, one can expand in mid 20's. Cancel if he rushes/pushes to get money for quick defense. With 3 hatches and 2..3 queens you'll have expo saturated extremely quickly :-)
On October 01 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote: I'm starting to like Hydra/Infestor in ZvZ.
Any top players using this unit comp, or is it all sling/bling/muta?
Army vs army I think it's easily the best midgame unit comp due to obvious reasons (hydras outrange everything). You do sacrifice a lot of map control though...I've been wanting to try experimenting with nydus worms on larger maps (i.e. non-blistering non-steppes) so that you can force encounters at his base without abandoning your own. I think that would mitigate a lot of the hydra mobility problems.
Hey, this may seem like an odd question, but my problem seems to be against Terrans that expand a lot. Against terrans that early attack, I can easily punish the attacks in the midgame with drops and nydus and frontbusting. But against terrans that expand, there is no obvious "counterattack" so my timing gets awkward.
I always feel like I should punish them for expanding and be able to be aggressive against them, but their comparatively meager defenses are surprisingly difficult to break. Is there any way I can punish this kind of play? Or do I just have to rely on outexpanding my opponent and droning?
On October 01 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote: I'm starting to like Hydra/Infestor in ZvZ.
Any top players using this unit comp, or is it all sling/bling/muta?
Army vs army I think it's easily the best midgame unit comp due to obvious reasons (hydras outrange everything). You do sacrifice a lot of map control though...I've been wanting to try experimenting with nydus worms on larger maps (i.e. non-blistering non-steppes) so that you can force encounters at his base without abandoning your own. I think that would mitigate a lot of the hydra mobility problems.
disclaimer: not a top player, obviously
Nydus play is pretty much standard 1k+ ZvZ... I recommend you start experimenting
EPT
