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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On October 01 2010 02:08 ToxNub wrote: Nydus play is pretty much standard 1k+ ZvZ... I recommend you start experimenting  o.O 1400+ and I've seen Nydus play once in ZvZ. Ever. | ||
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
It's more common with roach/hydra builds to circumvent the mobility disadvantage against ling/muta. Perhaps nobody uses roach/hydra at 1400 :p I played a 1500 zerg in a tournament last night and he fake nydused me and then hit my front with ling. | ||
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AnAngryDingo
United States223 Posts
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Amon
Australia17 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/86847-1v1-terran-zerg-delta-quadrant#rd:undefined;markup His blue flame hellion rush caught me off guard, but I've had this done to me before so as soon as I see the push, I block my ramp with queens. Then the game just goes on until he just pushes out with his ball with relative ease. I played against the same guy (now I have to take his BM again), but instead of ultras, I try brood lords. Again, decimated, even though this time I take more expansions than him, and all he does is ball up where his next expo is. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On October 01 2010 05:40 Amon wrote: Guys, what should I have done in this ZvT? http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/86847-1v1-terran-zerg-delta-quadrant#rd:undefined;markup His blue flame hellion rush caught me off guard, but I've had this done to me before so as soon as I see the push, I block my ramp with queens. Then the game just goes on until he just pushes out with his ball with relative ease. I played against the same guy (now I have to take his BM again), but instead of ultras, I try brood lords. Again, decimated, even though this time I take more expansions than him, and all he does is ball up where his next expo is. Man, you went 1 base muta, and didn't do any damage with them at all. You were behind from the very beginning. You're not going to win a macro game against a T who's on equal bases the whole time. edit: And after watching the whole thing, I can safely say wtf were you thinking with that last attack. You had less ultras than he had thors, and you were supporting them with lings, while his army had blue-flame hellion support. AND you suicided an overlord into his army, clearly seeing everything he had. Even still, with really good positioning, MAYBE you can make a cost effective trade. But instead, you attacked into his planetary fortress. wtf did you expect to happen? | ||
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ryanAnger
United States838 Posts
The beauty of this build is that its still relatively safe against Reapers/Hellions and your expo goes down even earlier than the typical 14 Pool 13 Gas builds, but you also get the added bonus of additional larva, and being able to immediately start your Lair if you so choose. It feels really good, to be honest, better than any early game I've felt before as Zerg. | ||
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kerminator
Austria75 Posts
On October 01 2010 02:08 ToxNub wrote: Nydus play is pretty much standard 1k+ ZvZ... I recommend you start experimenting i have about 350 games and it has been used against me only once in ZvZ when my opponent was doing some mass queen cheese i also dont think that nydus is effective against speedling muta which is pretty much the most mobile army in the game but i'd be open to some replays | ||
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Allscorpion
United Kingdom319 Posts
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mololu
Switzerland64 Posts
On October 01 2010 23:49 Allscorpion wrote: What is the most efficent way of queen control groups, I cant decide between 5,6,7 or all of 5!! PLZ HELP. Working my way up from bronze to plat I found that all queens on (in my case 9) and hatches on (in my case 0) worked best. I either inject over map if I don't have my hatches on the screen, otherwise I use the screen (depends on how much micro/macro is going on). I'd however say go with what works best, not with what is theoretically the most efficient. What matters is which option makes playing easier for you specifically. One advantage of all queens in one group is if you need to pull them to defend, you don't have to go through all your hotkeys which (for me) makes things simpler. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On October 01 2010 23:49 Allscorpion wrote: What is the most efficent way of queen control groups, I cant decide between 5,6,7 or all of 5!! PLZ HELP. This is a matter of personal preference. Use what feels best to you. | ||
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Adeny
Norway1233 Posts
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stk01001
United States786 Posts
On September 28 2010 08:44 kerminator wrote: I got a ZvT question too: On most maps i start with a standard 14gas 14pool 20hatch Most of the time ill play 2 hatch muta. But how can I counter the mass thor/ignite hellion timing attack. I tried: -speedling/baneling/muta: speedlings just get raped by the hellions, banelings are useless, mutas loose against thors because i just cant get enough out -mutas with upgrades: can take out the thors thanks to the magic box, but he meanwhile can run his hellions in my base/expos and kill all drones adding infestors also doesnt do much. its too early for ultras. a techswitch to roaches will put me behind i guess Personally I'd reccomend going pure roach against thor/hellion. I mean a LOT of roaches. No tech switch, just roach right from the start. Upgraded roaches do very well against this type of composition. First you need to get your two bases up and running and well saturated along with lair for roach speed. I usually start the roach warren at the same time as the lair. I also go for much later gas in order to get a better economy early on. Use multiple queens / spine crawlers / lings ON creep to take care of his initial hellion attacks. Just place your queens and spinecrawlers in good positions and you should be fine. Pump drones up to like 35-40 supply and try not to lose too many drones to hellions.. a lot of times I can deny hellion harass completey with just queens and spinecrawlers and a few lings.. you don't even need ling speed. Just make sure you get at least 3-4 queens and constantly spread creep. Once both your bases are fully saturated and running just go for pure roach pump (remember to larva inject CONSTANTLY) and you should be able to just walk over a hellion/thor army. Nydus play can work well with roach mass too and also overlord drops. I personally love using roaches vs T... and don't forget upgrades!! If he switches to marauder / tank then I usually just switch to speedling/muta or if he's going mass bio just get a TON of banelings and own him (I mean a TON of banelings, they will just melt his bio army) =) Only thing you gotta watch out for is banshees since your only anti air with this build is queens. If I see banshees I usually throw down a couple spores and start a spire. If the terran decides to mix in a few banshees and attack your army head on it can be trouble, just make sure to get your queens in the battle and use transfusion as much as you can. I also always get an overseer as soon as my lair is done unlees im 100% sure the terran isn't going banshees... a cloaked bansee in your base can be gg if you don't have the overseer already made.. I feel like these days a lot of zergs don't use roaches so Terrans don't expect it. I notice a LOT of terrans like to open with marine/hellion/thor compositions which totally gets raped by mass roach. A lot of terrans expect mass muta/ling so you can usually catch them pretty off guard with a huge group of roaches. Try experimenting with burrow and burrowed movement too, it can work wonders in certain situations. Good luck! Also if your wondering I'm around 1300 diamond.. definatly not an expert, but just wanted to offer my thoughts. I can regularly beat 1500-1600 diamond terrans with my roach play.. | ||
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ToxNub
Canada805 Posts
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On October 01 2010 02:08 ToxNub wrote: Nydus play is pretty much standard 1k+ ZvZ... I recommend you start experimenting 1200+ diamond here and I've seen, at most, a handful of nydus plays in the entirety of my ZvZ. I think "pretty much standard" might be overstating a bit. RE: hydra/infestor transition...I am always tempted to try it but I fear losing map control so much without muta. I realize one quality fungal on a muta harass will more or less win the game for you; still, I worry about 3rd FE harass...mobility off creep...etc. In other words, I believe it's most likely extremely solid but I worry my multi-base infestor defend won't be good enough. Would love to see some high level replays of this. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
Artosis recently casted a IdrA vs BoxeR replay (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=157182) What interested me was @ 2:37 -- Artosis says something to the effect of "people are working on a number of new Z strategies including a hyda/fast creep strat." This piqued my interest because I feel like the hydra is a black sheep amongst the swarm currently. No real place in the game outside of air defense or a DPS booster in a well-composed army. Has anyone seen any replays of this in action? Have you played any hydra/fast tumor games (high level only please  )?I imagine it revolves around getting 4-5 queens and tumoring like a madman followed by a fairly quick lair tech into upgraded hydras. The massive creep spread grants them their much needed mobility and their quality DPS allows them to roll many (non tank) armies. As for timings and such though, I am in the dark. Any help/discussion appreciated. Thanks. | ||
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KiaL.Kiwi
Germany210 Posts
On October 02 2010 02:43 IPA wrote: Sorry about double post; just remembered something else I wanted to ask. Artosis recently casted a IdrA vs BoxeR replay (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=157182) What interested me was @ 2:37 -- Artosis says something to the effect of "people are working on a number of new Z strategies including a hyda/fast creep strat." This piqued my interest because I feel like the hydra is a black sheep amongst the swarm currently. No real place in the game outside of air defense or a DPS booster in a well-composed army. Has anyone seen any replays of this in action? Have you played any hydra/fast tumor games (high level only please )?I imagine it revolves around getting 4-5 queens and tumoring like a madman followed by a fairly quick lair tech into upgraded hydras. The massive creep spread grants them their much needed mobility and their quality DPS allows them to roll many (non tank) armies. As for timings and such though, I am in the dark. Any help/discussion appreciated. Thanks. Dimaga just played it on Xel'Naga Caverns against Select in the Craft Cup. I have never seen this before and not to tried to play it myself, so take this summary with a grain of salt. But since I was as suprised as you to hear about it in the Boxer/Idra match I hope this helps to comprend the basics, maybe there's someone with some more experience who could tell us about it: + Show Spoiler + I missed the start, but what I got to see looked like a 14/15 Hatch. He droned up like a madmen and defended with 4 Queens and Spinecrawlers, did take the gas very late (I think he got Lair around 45 supply and took all 4 geysirs at once), built double Evo and instantly got +1/+1 while teching, getting Lingspeed and Banelingnest at the same time. When he hit Lair he got some defensive Banelings and began to mass Hydras from 3 Hatches (Main/Natural/Auxiliary) - basically he had 4 Queens and a huge amount of 2/2 Hydras in the final confrontation (Select pushed out and wanted to take the goldmineral) - Queens transfusing each other and tanking quite a lot of damage while the hydras where dealing. It's tough to say if he wanted to push anytime soon anyway (I really expect this strategy to be build around some timing window before the tank amount begins to be critical, maybe the 2/2 was the indicator, but I can't tell from one game), but since he was moving his Hydras and a bunch of Speedoverlords over the map it's not too farfechted to assume it. Edit: Doing it again in game 3. Watch out for the replays if you are interested in this. | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
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ryanAnger
United States838 Posts
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Zatarra
United States1 Post
I was wondering if anyone had a replay of a game where a zerg goes roach/queen or roach/hydra/queen perhaps. I like the idea of getting queens into the front lines with that heal of theirs. The biggest problem I can see with a build like this is mobility but I'm fairly certain that the player could overcome this by using overlords. It looks like the ovies would give the zerg some terrain abuse options. This also seems to open up the possibility of a fast creep spread. Anyways, I haven't actually tested a style like this (that will be changing tonight) and was hoping for a little insight. | ||
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Morik
65 Posts
On October 02 2010 00:47 mololu wrote: Working my way up from bronze to plat I found that all queens on (in my case 9) and hatches on (in my case 0) worked best. I either inject over map if I don't have my hatches on the screen, otherwise I use the screen (depends on how much micro/macro is going on). I'd however say go with what works best, not with what is theoretically the most efficient. What matters is which option makes playing easier for you specifically. One advantage of all queens in one group is if you need to pull them to defend, you don't have to go through all your hotkeys which (for me) makes things simpler. Something I learned from asking a similar question earlier in the thread: Its helpful to keep a single hatch in a control group by itself. (E.g., I have all queens on 4, all hatches on 5, one hatch on 6) While doing other things, you can hit your one hatch hotkey to check the progress of spawn larva. Prior to putting a single hatch on its own key, I ws just sort of guessing when spawn was done, and seeing if I could spawn again. Now, I just tap 6, keep an eye on it (that is, check back every so often--not leave the hatch selected all the time), and then I can inject right on time. (Well, ideally... I usually end up being like 'oh crap, its already done' when I go check it, but I'm working on it) | ||
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