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On September 21 2010 10:51 Saracen wrote:
1.Build Order
-14 gas
-13 pool
-15 overlord
-15 queen, take drones off of gas, research speed
-1 pair of zerglings
-21 expand
-22 overlord
-All drones with the first spawn larva
-26 queen, put drones back on gas
-Get lair once the queen finishes
-Poop one tumor with that queen and send it over to the natural
-roach warren when I get the money for it
-Baneling's nest if they are doing a 1base allin attack or similar.
2.Scouting
If it's on a map like Lost Temple or Delta Quadrant, I'll try to send an early drone to steal their gas so they can't do any cliff bullshit (or it will be significantly delayed). Otherwise, I send a later drone (maybe 14 or 15) to check how fast their first barracks is.
The first overlord goes some roundabout way to the back of their base so it doesn't get sniped by marines. The second one goes to the natural to scout bunker shenanigans. After killing the scout SCV, the first lings go up their ramp to check on marine production and the barracks addon.
Most Ts will build a factory close to the barracks if they are doing hellion play, so it checks for that as well. Finally, it checks for a second CC. I like to start sending the overlord in at around 30 supply if I'm still not sure what they're doing. If it turns out that they are doing a 1base attack, I'll stop droning at around 26-30 drones and make pure lings/roaches/banelings.
Banelings are necessary in case he brings his SCVs and/or he has lots of marines.
I'm a gold league newb. I watch a lot of GSL (been watching BW for last couple years), but I don't actually play much. So my attempts to execute strats is lacking.
First question: is this a good opening BO for ZvP as well (as just a generic, general opening BO)?
Timing question:
I keep losing to 1 base allins that I've never heard of. Are the timings in this basic BO sufficient for stopping it? I.e. is sending an ovie on 30 sufficient scouting time to spot most allins?
Example 1: 2 port cloaked banshee allin. Queens chase off 1st banshee. Comes back with 2 cloaked banshees (1 to nat, 1 to main), lair wasn't up. Overseer out, already GG because my queens were dead or almost dead (forgot to use transfusion). Will the timing in this basic BO be sufficient for getting lair (and hence an overseer) out before cloaked banshees arrive?
Example 2: 2 full medivacs drop marines in my main. Drones mostly escaped, lost pool, no gas at nat, so couldn't build anymore units (and my army didn't clean up the marines fully). Would 30 scouting-ovie see this (and the banshee one)?
P.S. Anyone know somewhere I can find a good list of T 1-base allins vs Z? I saw a couple cheese builds on liquipedia but not a really good list.
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30 - food - OL should spot early air play, yes. But just check it, play against cpu or whatever, execute build as you want to, check ingame clock for when your ovie goes in. Compare that to the games you mention; would seeing what he was up to at that timing have given you a clear indicator of what you needed to do? Would you have done it?
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On October 04 2010 07:55 geshi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 10:51 Saracen wrote:
1.Build Order
-14 gas
-13 pool
-15 overlord
-15 queen, take drones off of gas, research speed
-1 pair of zerglings
-21 expand
-22 overlord
-All drones with the first spawn larva
-26 queen, put drones back on gas
-Get lair once the queen finishes
-Poop one tumor with that queen and send it over to the natural
-roach warren when I get the money for it
-Baneling's nest if they are doing a 1base allin attack or similar.
2.Scouting
If it's on a map like Lost Temple or Delta Quadrant, I'll try to send an early drone to steal their gas so they can't do any cliff bullshit (or it will be significantly delayed). Otherwise, I send a later drone (maybe 14 or 15) to check how fast their first barracks is.
The first overlord goes some roundabout way to the back of their base so it doesn't get sniped by marines. The second one goes to the natural to scout bunker shenanigans. After killing the scout SCV, the first lings go up their ramp to check on marine production and the barracks addon.
Most Ts will build a factory close to the barracks if they are doing hellion play, so it checks for that as well. Finally, it checks for a second CC. I like to start sending the overlord in at around 30 supply if I'm still not sure what they're doing. If it turns out that they are doing a 1base attack, I'll stop droning at around 26-30 drones and make pure lings/roaches/banelings.
Banelings are necessary in case he brings his SCVs and/or he has lots of marines.
I'm a gold league newb. I watch a lot of GSL (been watching BW for last couple years), but I don't actually play much. So my attempts to execute strats is lacking. First question: is this a good opening BO for ZvP as well (as just a generic, general opening BO)? Timing question: I keep losing to 1 base allins that I've never heard of. Are the timings in this basic BO sufficient for stopping it? I.e. is sending an ovie on 30 sufficient scouting time to spot most allins? Example 1: 2 port cloaked banshee allin. Queens chase off 1st banshee. Comes back with 2 cloaked banshees (1 to nat, 1 to main), lair wasn't up. Overseer out, already GG because my queens were dead or almost dead (forgot to use transfusion). Will the timing in this basic BO be sufficient for getting lair (and hence an overseer) out before cloaked banshees arrive? Example 2: 2 full medivacs drop marines in my main. Drones mostly escaped, lost pool, no gas at nat, so couldn't build anymore units (and my army didn't clean up the marines fully). Would 30 scouting-ovie see this (and the banshee one)? P.S. Anyone know somewhere I can find a good list of T 1-base allins vs Z? I saw a couple cheese builds on liquipedia but not a really good list.
1200, take my advice as you will...
I personally always have 1 spore in each mineral line in every game, regardless of what I scout. It's impossible to scout the entire map to ensure he doesn't do some sort of surprise/proxy air/cloak stuff. The above BO is probably fine for 90% of banshee attacks, and trust me, ling/banelings eat bio drops for breakfast. However, the above BO doesn't really mention army creation at all (and that's pretty important in my book)... Sure, I guess I would use it if I scouted zero chance of attack. A lot of attacks will come before you hit 26 supply.. all drones with first spawn larvae? Sounds like suicide to me :p But saracen is a lot better than me, so I'm going to assume he's got some magic micro or something that makes it work and/or changes the build when scouting aggression.
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Could someone rip this game apart? I want to know exactly what I did wrong. I've been trying so hard to react to what Terran does, but this ZvT is what almost every ZvT I play looks like. I get my ass kicked so hard in this game but I felt like I was making at least okay choices.
I'm a 1100 diamond Z and this game I tried to use roach drops and NP against hellion/thor/tank
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-154833.jpg)
First, I fucked up and made a drone instead of an OL, making me 10 OL. Then I only put 2 drones on gas for about 20 seconds, and then I built an extra spinecrawler...maybe. Gotta watch out for blue flame.
I accidentally canceled my OS which could have scouted the thor drop, but that didnt' do too much damage. Finally I lost too many roaches with my first drop.
However, even if I fixed those mistakes I don't think I could have beaten my opponents strategy if he was executing as well as I was because he was floating 2k+ mineral for a large portion of the game and only built I think 36 workers total.
I think in future games I'm going to never research NP ever. Its probably the shittiest spell in the game, and I could have not wasted all my gas on infesters and gone with...uh, whatever kills thors I guess(??).
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On October 05 2010 04:47 Dental Floss wrote:Could someone rip this game apart? I want to know exactly what I did wrong. I've been trying so hard to react to what Terran does, but this ZvT is what almost every ZvT I play looks like. I get my ass kicked so hard in this game but I felt like I was making at least okay choices. I'm a 1100 diamond Z and this game I tried to use roach drops and NP against hellion/thor/tank First, I fucked up and made a drone instead of an OL, making me 10 OL. Then I only put 2 drones on gas for about 20 seconds, and then I built an extra spinecrawler...maybe. Gotta watch out for blue flame. I accidentally canceled my OS which could have scouted the thor drop, but that didnt' do too much damage. Finally I lost too many roaches with my first drop. However, even if I fixed those mistakes I don't think I could have beaten my opponents strategy if he was executing as well as I was because he was floating 2k+ mineral for a large portion of the game and only built I think 36 workers total. I think in future games I'm going to never research NP ever. Its probably the shittiest spell in the game, and I could have not wasted all my gas on infesters and gone with...uh, whatever kills thors I guess(??).
Ok I'm only 900 dia.
I think you are to determined to make the drops win the game for you. You are a bit to aggressive here. Its very hard to be aggressive with Z and not get punished for it, which is exactly what you was. Use the drops to punish his economy when he moves out and then retreat home to either defend his attack or to avoid his army. The point of dropping with Z is NOT to bring the fight into his base but to stall him. Optimally you dont wanna loose units doing this.
You dropped him 3 times and not one time was it efficient in any way really.
First time you stay to long and you attack his army in a choke and loose a lot of roaches. What if those 15-20 roaches would have all lived to help defend his attack? You would maybe not have lost your 3rd alternatively you would be safe enough to just retake it and spam drones hardcore. (your drones count is a bit low for the rest of the game).
The 2nd drop is cleaner. But again you stay a little to long. Could have settled with seeing his army, tech and killing techlab or some scvs. But not terrible. Was ok.
Last battle. You drop at the same time even though you know its coming and I would expect the T to go for it as he did and not turn back in this scenario. You loose 24 roaches doing almost nothing to his base.
What you have left is a 4.5k T army vs a 2.5k Z army of mainly infestors. Despite this you inflict like 3k damage on his army! If thats not good work by the infestors I don't know what is? Not often you see a small army being cost effective vs a ball of units in this game. What if you had those 24 roaches you wasted on your last drop? Then I think that battle would have been close despite the T having like 1k more resources in his army and thats pretty amazing.
Also whenever there are marines I would make some lings into banes. Just 10 is enough to make a difference mix em in with the lings/roaches you already have. Reason? Marines are cost effective vs all other Z units.
Also I would try tech ultras quicker instead of more infestors/roach, but I guess you felt kinda pressured. Roach is simply not a good unit vs end game T ball. I end up this way sometimes to. But practice that transitioning into ultras and 3 bases.
Also upgrades!
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I think the problem is that getting extra upgrades, expanding faster, and getting ultras faster would cut down my army size. That in turn would make dropping impossible. Thats okay I guess, but then I have to let the T sit back and do whatever he wants and have to just defend until the map is mined out basically.... Yeah, I know that sometimes thats just the game you end up playing, but I lose in that situation more often than not. I really am trying hard to take peoples advice to abuse Z mobility, but I feel like Z is the least mobile just because you have to keep all your units together all the time.
I think all of your criticisms are really solid and thank you for reviewing my game. I'm going to think about each of those points before I ladder again tonight.
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On October 05 2010 06:26 Dental Floss wrote:
I think the problem is that getting extra upgrades, expanding faster, and getting ultras faster would cut down my army size. That in turn would make dropping impossible. Thats okay I guess, but then I have to let the T sit back and do whatever he wants and have to just defend until the map is mined out basically.... Yeah, I know that sometimes thats just the game you end up playing, but I lose in that situation more often than not. I really am trying hard to take peoples advice to abuse Z mobility, but I feel like Z is the least mobile just because you have to keep all your units together all the time.
I think all of your criticisms are really solid and thank you for reviewing my game. I'm going to think about each of those points before I ladder again tonight.
True. But there are small things to consider that could get you ultras faster and upgrades faster.
If you hadn't lost the first 15 or so roaches. you would have had 1125 minerals and 375 gas 15 larvae you could have spend in expo/tech/drones instead. Actually it could have been spent on 15 drones, AND hive AND ultra den and you would still have some recourses to spare. Imagine that snow ball effect on this game!  Compare that to the techlab+tank you killed. The effect of pulling his army back was excellent but you should have left when he came rolling into his base taking minimal losses.
Now this drop caused you to being forced into making more roaches to defend and even that wasn't enough to save your 3rd. Putting you back another 350minerals.
I sometimes end up in your situation that I wanna be aggressive with Z since i just traded armies in my favor and think I can put a serious dent in Ts eco or similar. But this almost never end well for me. The only time I think you should be this aggressive as Z assaulting T in his base is army vs army if (and better players please correct me if I'm wrong)
* You reached tier 3 and have BL/ultra back up (and even then I'd might wait to max on larvae/resources)
* Or if he is taking a new expo before PF is up (preferably when taking a 3rd cause he is spread out then, doing this if its his nat might not work that well). This is a perfect time to drop in his main and draw the defense there only to hit the expo with speedlings. Here agression works. However its the harassing kind. Keep the mentality of low losses however the PF at 3rd is important to stop. It will still not work assaulting the Ts army head on in his base, it doesn't ever. Even if you just got on top trading armies. And especially not at a PF.
* Or you simply do it in a harassing fashion with the intent of not loosing any units (or very few) like muta/bane drop
* Or if you are a ninja like cool aka fruitseller and know exactly what T have and that your all in roach nydus aggression will pay off.
In short unless you are cool you do not army vs army in Ts base unless you have tier 3 and even then be careful. Harass is ok of course.
It can work being agressive. But if T isn't expanding from 1/2 base I think a much better way for Z to use the advantage from getting on top of army trade is to make drones/expos and just aim for the long term macro win. I know its frustrating to play like this sometimes and you just wanna get in there thinking you can end the game. But Z just doesn't work like that ;P And its very risky (or highly intelligent) play being so aggressive.
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I have a hard time with ZvP atm.
Can anyone give me some pointers on how your unitcomposition should look like? As a general conept vs a Protoss that expands fast or decently fast enough. I mostly make a lot of hydras and then some roaches and maybe some coruptors and try to tech to hive quite fast.
What could be the diffrent compositions that currently works?
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What do you guys think of the (gradual) shift to hydras in ZvT vs bio heavy builds? I've been seeing more and more of it lately, specifically from Dimaga and Artosis. Dimaga's build is cool as hell, he makes 2-4 more queens than usual and uses them to aggressively spread creep early on, than later he uses them to tank during battles, using transfusion to heal them. It seems like a really good combination, as hydras will suck your gas like crazy, and queens are surprisingly strong when if you are fast enough to transfuse. Later on they obviously add in some infestors.
I don't have the replays on me now, but I'll find a few of them later tonight if people are interested. A big reason this kind of play seems promising to me is its ability to deal with drops. As long as your army isn't halfway across the map you can usually clean them up pretty easily.
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On October 05 2010 06:56 Neivler wrote:
I have a hard time with ZvP atm.
Can anyone give me some pointers on how your unitcomposition should look like? As a general conept vs a Protoss that expands fast or decently fast enough. I mostly make a lot of hydras and then some roaches and maybe some coruptors and try to tech to hive quite fast.
What could be the diffrent compositions that currently works?
I think teching fast to hive won't help you a lot against the average gateway-colossi army because the attack from the protoss arrives way before that tech kicks in. What I think is the most effective is a combination that is heavy on roaches with burrow movement (forcefields rape), with some hydras and corruptors added into the mix. Only after this initial push I think it is safe to tech to ultras and take a 4th base.
Or, of course you delay the push by going muta-ling and get your hive tech out in time.
I also have a question myself. As of now, I have veto'd 3 maps: Desert Oasis, Kulas and Steppes.
This leaves me with those two maps that are hardly better: LT and Blistering Sands.
So the first question: Do you think that is a good choice?
Second one: How can a zerg deal with those vicious cliffdrops on LT and 4gates on Blistering Sands? Those things are really difficult for me to deal with, so I oftentimes find myself cheesing on those maps, which I dont want to happen, so any hints?
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Due to the whole tank play being diminished a bit since last patch, I'm seeing a lot of hellion/banshee play early game. As a zerg player, this freightens me. Because if I over commit to roaches, his wall off will tear me to shreds if he has 2 bunkers with marauders in them. Moreover, I lack the AA until t2 to fend of banshees which is equally scary. What ZvT strat should I utilize to stop such play?
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Hey guys what pool is going to be the best when I know for sure opponent is going to 6 pool me?
Let's say on LT / Meta.
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Any tips against fe'ing opponent in zvz ? My normal gameplan is roach/spine defend into mutas into expand and then roach/infestor but against fe i fail miserably because I'm so far behind in economy. If i expand after I see him expand I'm behind because I expanded later and already got 2 gas working + 1-2 spine crawler. I tried transitioning into roach allins which is defendable or maybe my timing was bad. Should I try ling/baneling allin? Or is my gameplan doomed against fe ?
The timing of the fe I'm talking about is either 14 hatch or 1-2 roach/4-6 ling into expand.
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what is the best unit composition against a hellion maruader thor/scv timing attack? i seem to lose to that a lot, even when i see it coming
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On October 05 2010 07:36 sixghost wrote:
What do you guys think of the (gradual) shift to hydras in ZvT vs bio heavy builds? I've been seeing more and more of it lately, specifically from Dimaga and Artosis. Dimaga's build is cool as hell, he makes 2-4 more queens than usual and uses them to aggressively spread creep early on, than later he uses them to tank during battles, using transfusion to heal them. It seems like a really good combination, as hydras will suck your gas like crazy, and queens are surprisingly strong when if you are fast enough to transfuse. Later on they obviously add in some infestors.
I don't have the replays on me now, but I'll find a few of them later tonight if people are interested. A big reason this kind of play seems promising to me is its ability to deal with drops. As long as your army isn't halfway across the map you can usually clean them up pretty easily.
I've been experimenting with this a lot lately. The Artosis replay pack is something everyone should check out, because it's just so damn cool.
Hydra/Infestor is so much stronger than I would have ever thought it would be. Like you said, it completely shuts down drops. Like, no other build in Z's arsenal handles drops as well as hydra/infestor, imo.
And it also does so well against SO much of the other cute stuff Terran can do.
Starport play? No problem.
Reapers? No problem.
3 Rax? No problem.
Even blue-flame hellions are easily dealt with because of how well Infestors shut them down.
The only real hang up comes from very tank heavy mech builds, and, as we saw with FruitSeller, that can be handled with cute things like ling/bling drops a la zealot bumps in BW.
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On October 06 2010 01:04 Alpina wrote:
Hey guys what pool is going to be the best when I know for sure opponent is going to 6 pool me?
Let's say on LT / Meta.
When you know FOR SURE?
Definitely a 10 pool. Just as his lings arive at your base you'll lings will hatch, and you'll have more eco too.
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On October 05 2010 07:53 Slunk wrote:
I also have a question myself. As of now, I have veto'd 3 maps: Desert Oasis, Kulas and Steppes.
This leaves me with those two maps that are hardly better: LT and Blistering Sands.
So the first question: Do you think that is a good choice?
Second one: How can a zerg deal with those vicious cliffdrops on LT and 4gates on Blistering Sands? Those things are really difficult for me to deal with, so I oftentimes find myself cheesing on those maps, which I dont want to happen, so any hints?
I have vetoed the maps where I get punished for a 14 hatch myself. Namely DQ, Steppes and BS.
Kulas and LT are fine except vT (in which case I try to get around using spine crawlers and 2 base muta to survive early). Remember once it gets into mid game you can take down the rocks on Kulas and solve a lot of problems. This is also true vP where you can really punish any expand attempt.
I always 14 hatch, even vZ with a 9 scout (if I see fast 2 gate or a very early pool I can drop a 13-14 pool instead of the hatch). The 9 scout also spots forges so you can patrol the ramp and chase the probe to avoid getting cannoned.
The 9 scout is not always necessary (Scrap station or against Terran sometimes) but really helps most of the time.
The solutions to cliff drop depend a lot on the timings and type of cliff drop (and positions). IMO 2 base muta with spine crawlers to delay works decently. Getting a few roaches can be very good too because the Terran often has very little back home so even 5 roaches can beat down the door and make a big mess. Once you survive (and even if you lose a hatch) the key point is to regain map control, delaying the Terran expand can also be very handy as can getting a fast 3rd. All of these solutions obviously depend on the level you are playing at (and consequently what you can expect out of your opponent).
I find vetoing a map for 1 matchup to not be as good as vetoing the maps that are bad for my 14 hatch in all 3 matchups.
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On October 06 2010 03:16 fevax wrote:
Any tips against fe'ing opponent in zvz ? My normal gameplan is roach/spine defend into mutas into expand and then roach/infestor but against fe i fail miserably because I'm so far behind in economy. If i expand after I see him expand I'm behind because I expanded later and already got 2 gas working + 1-2 spine crawler. I tried transitioning into roach allins which is defendable or maybe my timing was bad. Should I try ling/baneling allin? Or is my gameplan doomed against fe ?
The timing of the fe I'm talking about is either 14 hatch or 1-2 roach 4-6 ling into expand.
Start 14 hatching and do it better.
The 14 hatch is vulnerable on some maps (see my post above) but otherwise pretty solid. If you scout an early pool, drop a pool instead of hatch. Otherwise drop some spines as the pool pops and you can defend 1 base lings or roaches. If the game goes to tier 2 you are ahead. Make sure to keep tabs on other expands and take your third in good time if the game gets there.
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I'd like to reopen the question of roaches in ZvZ.
I've been an advocate of sling/bling since I first got my beta key, but I've grown so exhausted with baneling wars that I've started opening roach purely for the sake of adding some variety.
And then I won a couple games...
And then I remembered the GSL where all the pro ZvZs involved roach wars. (yes, all 2 of them)
And then I remembered Day[9] talking about how he liked opening Roach in ZvZ.
And now I'm starting to wonder if Roach might be better.
They soak up the damage from banes wonderfully, and when positioned right, handle lings excellently too.
Its becoming more and more common to see Hydra/Infestor later on (Artosis says its outright better than muta) and Roach transitions to it beautifully.
What's the consensus these days?
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As a follow-up to MrBitter's question about roach openings in ZvZ, what is a good BO there?
With a roach opening, can one stop bling rushes, or are the roaches too slow to get out?
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EPT
