EPTBlords are sometimes required though; see Idra vs. Drewbie. But usually you just need ultras. If you have the window, blords are probably better though.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 27
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dave333
United States915 Posts
Blords are sometimes required though; see Idra vs. Drewbie. But usually you just need ultras. If you have the window, blords are probably better though. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
I have found something rather interesting I would like to share (and get feedback on). In ZvP I have been going 14 hatch, 14 pool and getting a lair right after the first 2 queens (1 at main 1 at expand). During this time I get a 3rd queen, 1-4 spine crawlers and a roach warren (roaches as needed to hold off pushes). Then once lair is up I get a super fast roach speed, burrow, hydra den then roach burrow (I put up the 2nd gas as lair starts). Now here comes the interesting part. The roach burrow kicks in just in time to get a bunch of roaches out with it before any colossus push. I go to his base with my roaches (burrowed for the last bit) and if the colossi don't attack me (no observer around) I usually snipe a couple of them and half an army with it (stalkers are actually pretty bad against roaches when you pop up around them). This has won me games outright and often taken out an expand or key tech by the time an observer gets over. *Edit for clarity* If he has no colossi just destroy him as he likely doesn't have observers either, void rays are good but can't detect so take advantage of it, get rid of key pylons, pop up in the mineral line etc. Even if there are cannons, rush in, kill the cannon (or two) then burrow and watch him cry, the roach regen also allows them to kill much larger gateway forces if he has no detection. Note that I get fast hydras (which help against any delayed gateway push or air) and the hydra roach with roach upgrades can fend off early colossi pushes even if he has an observer. I also don't lose anything by pushing out because if a colossus takes a swipe at the roaches I just unburrow and run home with no losses. The upgrades are also great for in battle micro as the roaches underground become low priority targets and are hard to target manually (so the regen kicks in well). This means you can burrow 3/4 of your roaches and move up with them to snipe colossi, if he moves back your hydras demolish his support, if he sticks around to kill hydras he loses the colossi. I do get corruptors later on, I have found this to be a very good all purpose opening though and a lot more efficient than going for corruptors right away (as the corruptors are no threat to anything but colossi so you don't want them until he has truly committed). The burrowed roaches are also very efficient at sneaking into the enemy base or putting pressure on (even if he has cannons, 10 roaches kill a cannon or two fast) while getting away quite efficiently (observers are pretty slow) and forcing a lot of gas in observers. This leads me to my last point. I get 2-3 overseers patrolling around my base to destroy observers. This denies scouting and also makes it very difficult for the opponent to have enough up to deal with the roaches (also makes dts a non-issue). Just something I have been experimenting with and had a fair bit of success using. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
14 hatch into roach... I've been 14 hatching a lot lately too, but I always, always, always go muta, and ZvP is hands down the matchup I have the most success in. 2 base muta is just sooo good. | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
I baneling busted a toss that went gate b4 as well. | ||
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AnAngryDingo
United States223 Posts
seems like nobody 2 gates anymore, and you can defend it with 16 hatch/15 pool anyway, unless its close positions on metal/temple maybe..? i've been doing it vs every T and P and getting away with it every time. edit: unless the protoss does the stupid pylon block shennanigans | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
9 OL 15 pool 17 hatch @ nat 16 drone 17 gas 16 queen (when pool pops) 18 OL (not sure about the gas, I do it this way). Please discuss this build compared to 14 hatch etc. | ||
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iloevrsg
128 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On October 07 2010 18:55 iloevrsg wrote: does anyone know FruitDealer's buildorders against P and T? Seems the normal 14 gas pool vs T is it not? He's pretty conservative. | ||
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Lavitage
United States71 Posts
wat do? | ||
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Island
Sweden22 Posts
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mrhobbers
109 Posts
On October 07 2010 18:55 iloevrsg wrote: does anyone know FruitDealer's buildorders against P and T? He mixes is up depending on the map/what he feels like doing. He's either doing a 14 pool, or a 15 hatch 15 pool | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On October 08 2010 00:39 Lavitage wrote: ZvP 2 player map, I 9 pool, save up 3 larva, morph them into lings ASAP and rally them to the protoss base. By the time they arrive he has a zealot and 2 fully constructed gates, or maybe 1 of them's really close to finishing. wat do? Surrender and stop fucking 9 pooling. On October 07 2010 18:37 Metaspace wrote: Question: Some time ago, Idra used as intial eco BO (assuming opponent not rushing) 9 OL 15 pool 17 hatch @ nat 16 drone 17 gas 16 queen (when pool pops) 18 OL (not sure about the gas, I do it this way). Please discuss this build compared to 14 hatch etc. 15 pool 17 hatch, or 14 pool 16 hatch are really exactly what they seem: An in-between opening. It's not as eco heavy as 14 hatch, and not as flexible as 14 gas, but it gives you a little bit of both. This was kinda "the" build back in beta before people started really abusing Zerg's relative inflexibility in the early game. These days, you still see some 14 pool 16 hatch, but more often than not, when you want to expand really quickly, 14 hatch is better. Likewise, when you want to get some units out, 14 gas gets you early speed, and to quote Artosis: On October 07 2010 15:41 Artosis wrote: The thing is, slow lings are 100% worthless in every way. I don't like dying early. Are there applications for 14 pool, 16 hatch? Sure, but I would wager that its a BO you want to save for your ZvTs (perhaps after scouting Rax into CC), as its really hard, these days, for toss to effectively punish a 14 hatch. On October 07 2010 15:55 AnAngryDingo wrote: why 14 hatch when you can 16 hatch? seems like nobody 2 gates anymore, and you can defend it with 16 hatch/15 pool anyway, unless its close positions on metal/temple maybe..? i've been doing it vs every T and P and getting away with it every time. edit: unless the protoss does the stupid pylon block shennanigans I haven't tried this, and, frankly, I'm scared to. If toss decides to 2 gate a 14 hatch, its barely defensible. I can't see defending it if you went 16 hatch. Verse T, I don't like going hatch first unless its on a map like Scrap Station or Desert Oasis. That said, I'm floating around the mid 1500s right now, so maybe you know something I don't. On October 07 2010 09:41 Zvendetta wrote: Got a very important question for late game zerg strategy- What should be my criteria for choosing Brood Lords or Ultras? I'm a zerg who loves going muta/ling- and upgrade/tech wise this unit comp transitions perfectly into either, but what should make me want to get BL's as opposed to ultras and vice versa? BL's give me the advantage of breaking down static defenses, while ultras are a huge sponge. Is range or splash my biggest concern? Essentially, with BL's engaging forces in chokes becomes manageable while ultras need an open field to maximize their surround and damage output. Thanks Teching to Broods is hard, man. They're such good units, but they take sooo long to get out. In general, I think you always want to go Ultras first. Then, after you've maxed, morph that greater spire, and transition into a few Broods after you start trading armies. The Terran's longer resupply time is what will allow you to get Broods in play safely. I feel like going to Broods first leaves you very vulnerable for too long of a time. Corruptors can't shoot down, and a maxed Terran army against a Zerg army with 10-20 supply worth of Corruptors is going to steam roll. | ||
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AnAngryDingo
United States223 Posts
haven't tried this, and, frankly, I'm scared to. If toss decides to 2 gate a 14 hatch, its barely defensible. I can't see defending it if you went 16 hatch. That said, I'm floating around the mid 1500s right now, so maybe you know something I don't. well, you're floating higher around about 200 pts higher than me so maybe i'm the one who's wrong. I just rarely see a dedicated 2 gate opening out of toss anymore. sometimes they'll try to throw a 2nd gate down when they see you doing such a greedy build, but it will be late and i've been able to defend it every time with lings from both hatches. cannons will mess you up, or at the very least make you pull like 5 drones and lose that mining time? btw, i always scout on 9 on LT or metal to scout for close positions and if we're close i just put down a 15 pool/16 hatch Verse T, I don't like going hatch first unless its on a map like Scrap Station or Desert Oasis. just wondering what your reasoning behind this is? i see absolutely no reason not to hatch first against terran anymore, except maybe on blistering or once again close positions on metal/LT which u should be scouting for before u decide what build to go for. close positions = 14gas/14pool | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
I would still got 14 gas/14 pool vs. terran, since reapers still happen and you want your speedlings for hellions as well. | ||
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Zvendetta
United States321 Posts
This one specific game of IdrA's- even with fully max ultras, he couldn't overcome a terran's measly bioball just because the terran could outmaneuver the zerg's army. It wasn't UNTIL IdrA finally got BL's was he able to win the game. I like infesters, (and especially moreso with the upcoming change to give FG power to stop blink)- I think I'm going to be playing a lot of games where I sink gas into infesters first and have those be my "power unit" Maybe its because i'm a lower level player, but I still am able to get clutch NP and I have no clue why its so underused right now. I feel like with infesters I don't even need ultras so I could get BL's instead, albeit delayed due to infester investment. | ||
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Mastadon6900
United States46 Posts
On October 08 2010 08:21 Zvendetta wrote: I like infesters, (and especially moreso with the upcoming change to give FG power to stop blink)- I think I'm going to be playing a lot of games where I sink gas into infesters first and have those be my "power unit" Maybe its because i'm a lower level player, but I still am able to get clutch NP and I have no clue why its so underused right now. I feel like with infesters I don't even need ultras so I could get BL's instead, albeit delayed due to infester investment. I love infestor play too. It is starting to win me more games. ![[image loading]](http://sc2sig.com/s/us/954046-1.png) | ||
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james11787
2 Posts
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dantuts
Philippines19 Posts
its my first post, i need comments on my gameplay. share your game tips..hotkeys and all that  here's a sample of my recent ZvZ match http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=155453 personal criticisms of my gameplay. -my multitasking is not great i tend to panic when im doing lots of things :p , you'll notice it in my replay. any tips ? - scouting and reacting is my main problem. i usually scout on the first minutes of the game. then most of the time caught up with the moment teching, and will scout again after 2-3 mins. - whenever im certain that the opponent will rush i pump units but then my microing/unit selection fail me. on a typical Stalkers/zealot/sentry toss rush , i usually end up with lots of lings/a couple of roaches/ and queen to defend. i think its enough if micro'd correctly to which i always fail. any tips ? do i force fire on one unit? etcc... -build order , as of yet, i still dont have a strict build order. but my usual opening is (14-ext, 13-pool, then drones, warren, ove, queen then more drones, speed upgrade..etc..) i somewhat abandoned my FE. im trying to go one base zerg , then just exp when i reach 30's food. cause i feel like league players for SEA, are always going for the early kill. any tips? -drone production (base and exp). this has been my main problem. sometimes i can go trigger happy on drone production, and sometimes on units. vice versa. any tips ? -hotkeys !! also my problem, i often reset my waypoints. maybe in the way i press the keys. its kinda resets automatically. i also do spawn larvae on mini maps, but on the recent patch, whenever i do spawn larvae, the queen doesnt react as fast as the previous patch. some kind of a delay..i need to manually select them. and do spawn. my control keys as follows (1-ground units; 2-flying units; 3-queens; 4-hatches) -when to expand. in the replay, i didnt do FE. which helped me in the early game. but as the game progress i lost 2 hatch on my natural exp. (which doesnt have enough drones btw, see #2) i usually do 14 ext 13 pool. then warrren. any tips? -Ove production throughout the game, i was so caught up with units. i forgot to produce overlord. -micro some battles i do good on microing units. sometimes i dont. is it my unit placements ? (see replay) thank you in advance. | ||
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ShloppyToxic
United States1 Post
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Cambam
United States360 Posts
Otherwise: What do I do about a 4 gate push where they forcefield my ramp indefinitely? When this happens, the 2 armies clash, both get smaller, but then he reinforces from his pylon and half of my reinforcements get trapped in my main. Then he kills my units at my xpo and my xpo, then moves up to my main and kills my main units and my main. I fast expand (14 hatch, 13 pool, 16 gas) and then usually drone to 30 or 32, thrown down 2 spine crawlers and then mass lings and hydras. Sometimes lings and roaches. What do I do? (1200 Diamond for reference) | ||
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