|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On October 06 2010 05:51 MrBitter wrote:
I'd like to reopen the question of roaches in ZvZ.
I've been an advocate of sling/bling since I first got my beta key, but I've grown so exhausted with baneling wars that I've started opening roach purely for the sake of adding some variety.
And then I won a couple games...
And then I remembered the GSL where all the pro ZvZs involved roach wars. (yes, all 2 of them)
And then I remembered Day[9] talking about how he liked opening Roach in ZvZ.
And now I'm starting to wonder if Roach might be better.
They soak up the damage from banes wonderfully, and when positioned right, handle lings excellently too.
Its becoming more and more common to see Hydra/Infestor later on (Artosis says its outright better than muta) and Roach transitions to it beautifully.
What's the consensus these days?
I'm a pretty vocal supporter of using roach/hydra builds in my ZvZ and not regretting it any time soon. People keep telling me I'm crazy, but I keep on winning. Anybody who blindly goes baneling will flat out lose. I stop the first few attacks, then push with a 10ish roach army (blocking my ramp of course) and generally catch them either expanding or trying to tech to muta. Pure ling fares better than baneling, about even with roach, until i get a 20ish unit ball, but the usual transition into muta can be shut down by some defensive spores and a hydra den, provided your placement is good. Roach mirror builds make for a fun game of hydra/roach/nydus/infestor play.
Things to note:
1. Upgrades are very important. Armor +1 on roaches is a massive difference when you fight lings. I'd say that lings actually beat roaches before this upgrade. +1 armor is also very important for hydras against mutalisk. I try to get my +1 armor before my first roach push reaches their base.
2. Chokes. If you can't block your ramp, you can't use roaches.
3. Early expand builds are probably the best counter to roach builds. Luckily most zerg are scared stiff of expoing in ZvZ. They will spinecrawler up before you can create a formidable roach force, and then on 2 base, whether he goes hydras or muta, you will just be out-macroed. You won't able to counter-expand because it usually means you lose your choke (see #2).
4. You never want your hydras in the open, but this is where nydus worms and drops come into play. I prefer nydus as it allows me to easily defend my base if he tries a counterattack. Even better is multi-pronged attacks, like nydusing his main, but having your force outside his nat, and while he drags all his units back into his main, you kill his expo. Cost to you, 100/100. You can switch it up, he will be forced to either play a guessing game or split his forces, either way you win.
obligatory rating: ~1150 diamond
|
On October 06 2010 06:07 Morik wrote:
As a follow-up to MrBitter's question about roach openings in ZvZ, what is a good BO there?
With a roach opening, can one stop bling rushes, or are the roaches too slow to get out?
Your first roaches will be out in time for any bling shennanigans. I don't have a solid enough BO to really share, though...
I'm curious:
If I'm going to try and Roach, and the other Z just decides to bust with like 10-12 blings, what is my best response?
|
On October 06 2010 06:56 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 06:07 Morik wrote:
As a follow-up to MrBitter's question about roach openings in ZvZ, what is a good BO there?
With a roach opening, can one stop bling rushes, or are the roaches too slow to get out? Your first roaches will be out in time for any bling shennanigans. I don't have a solid enough BO to really share, though... I'm curious: If I'm going to try and Roach, and the other Z just decides to bust with like 10-12 blings, what is my best response?
Staggered roach wall, mostly. You can put 2 at the bottom of the ramp, 2 at the upper area, and the remainder behind. Each successive wall can hit the units on the wall below it, but won't be damaged by baneling splash. Don't remember who I saw do it, but I've used it ever since.
If you're not at a choke and instead at your main you have to do some fancy micro to minimize splash and protect your drone line.
|
I'm a zerg player in gold, started playing SCII recently and I'm having some trouble to come up with build orders. I've checked the liquipedia and it's been very helpfull but i'd like to hear what you people here have to say about some stuff I've camed up by myself mostly, like why some timings are wrong or why the BO becames better if you switch some things...
1) Basically I'e camed up with this standard opening: 13~14 pool depending on the threat, 17over, 17gas, 16 queen, 18gas, 17drone. This leaves me with a shitload of minerals wich I use to pump lings, drones or expand depending on the situation but I pretty sure there's something wrong with it, lol. Any advice here?
2) In ZvZ I've camed up with something... Not exacly a build but a chain of follow ups that almost aways wins me the game. I tech to muta holding of attacks with spines and speedlings until the mutas are out. Harass or win, depending on the opponents reaction and at this point most people get hydras, when I prontly counter with blings and win. Is there a way to effectively counter this? Problaby yes but how? I've only lost so far in a mirror match (didn't expected fast spire, lol) and when i've messed up with the spines... Some opinions in this are greatly appreciated.
And that's it... Sorry to bother with my gold noobishness, pardon me but this is a halp thread after all, right? Thank you all who readed this, in advance.
|
On October 06 2010 09:31 Evilruler wrote:
I'm a zerg player in gold, started playing SCII recently and I'm having some trouble to come up with build orders. I've checked the liquipedia and it's been very helpfull but i'd like to hear what you people here have to say about some stuff I've camed up by myself mostly, like why some timings are wrong or why the BO becames better if you switch some things...
1) Basically I'e camed up with this standard opening: 13~14 pool depending on the threat, 17over, 17gas, 16 queen, 18gas, 17drone. This leaves me with a shitload of minerals wich I use to pump lings, drones or expand depending on the situation but I pretty sure there's something wrong with it, lol. Any advice here?
2) In ZvZ I've camed up with something... Not exacly a build but a chain of follow ups that almost aways wins me the game. I tech to muta holding of attacks with spines and speedlings until the mutas are out. Harass or win, depending on the opponents reaction and at this point most people get hydras, when I prontly counter with blings and win. Is there a way to effectively counter this? Problaby yes but how? I've only lost so far in a mirror match (didn't expected fast spire, lol) and when i've messed up with the spines... Some opinions in this are greatly appreciated.
And that's it... Sorry to bother with my gold noobishness, pardon me but this is a halp thread after all, right? Thank you all who readed this, in advance.
You're going to be better off following standard BOs for now.
In your first one, for example, there's just no reason to ever get your 2nd gas so early. Its wasteful and inefficient.
Liquidpedia should be your bible. If not, there's tons of great info throughout this thread.
|
On October 06 2010 03:57 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 01:04 Alpina wrote:
Hey guys what pool is going to be the best when I know for sure opponent is going to 6 pool me?
Let's say on LT / Meta. When you know FOR SURE? Definitely a 10 pool. Just as his lings arive at your base you'll lings will hatch, and you'll have more eco too.
Is it really the best? I mean if you go 12 pool you would need micro your drones a bit until lings pops out, but you will have +2 more drones..
|
Guys, what's the right time to scout a ignite hellion/banshee/phoenix/VR rush? Too soon, my slow ass overlord is taken down by a few marines, too late, the units are already out and I don't have the time to tech and make the appropriate counter.
|
On October 06 2010 05:51 MrBitter wrote:
I'd like to reopen the question of roaches in ZvZ.
I've been an advocate of sling/bling since I first got my beta key, but I've grown so exhausted with baneling wars that I've started opening roach purely for the sake of adding some variety.
And then I won a couple games...
And then I remembered the GSL where all the pro ZvZs involved roach wars. (yes, all 2 of them)
And then I remembered Day[9] talking about how he liked opening Roach in ZvZ.
And now I'm starting to wonder if Roach might be better.
They soak up the damage from banes wonderfully, and when positioned right, handle lings excellently too.
Its becoming more and more common to see Hydra/Infestor later on (Artosis says its outright better than muta) and Roach transitions to it beautifully.
What's the consensus these days?
I have found a 14 hatch works wonders. This also means you are vulnerable to run by ... so while you are at it making roaches is probably not a bad plan (I actually use spinecrawlers at the natural to pick of banelings). Just make sure to pick off banelings.
Then you are running 2 base roaches against not 2 bases (might be coming up but not there yet) so go crush him. I do however suggest getting the lair and hydra up in good time to avoid getting surprised by mutas.
|
On October 06 2010 19:41 Amon wrote:
Guys, what's the right time to scout a ignite hellion/banshee/phoenix/VR rush? Too soon, my slow ass overlord is taken down by a few marines, too late, the units are already out and I don't have the time to tech and make the appropriate counter.
well, poking in the front is a good start for this. someone rushing for air won't have many units in his front so you know something is up (example would be a sami wall-off with just 1-2 zealots, a full wall-off as protoss or just a couple of marines at his wall). If you spot this, get an additional queen (or even two) and tech up to lair while saturating your expo. In the case of a protoss, keep poking up the ramp to see if he's getting warpgates (if so, start pumping units and throw down a spine or two).
About exact timings: i think the earliest he could have a banshee in your base is around the 6 minute mark, but i don't know for sure. Definately before 7 minutes though... so moving your overlord in around 4 minutes sounds like a good idea (again, don't know exact timings, so don't copy this time, for exact times look in your own replays about when those units are getting out). It can be useful keeping an overlord outside your opponents base and morphing it into an overseer as soon as your lair finishes. It's faster than an overlord (both in terms of actual speed and time it takes to get out) and can contaminate the tech structure that's pumping out the rush, giving you time to prepare.
|
Newb zerg need some help
I'm playing SC2 for a few weeks, I was playing some SC2 beta earlier too.
I decided to play full 50 practice league matches to get acquainted well with the game before going ladder. Yes, I know it can make some bad habbits, I'm trying to be aware of it.
I am not satisfied with my results. I can win slightly above half of my games. My main worry are long games, I usually don't play well after 15-20 mins, making stupid mistakes, but don't know how to improve.
I was searching TL for a topic to help newb like me and found only this one - if it's not a proper place for that, excuse me and move it to the right place, tnx.
This is the sample replay. In my opinion, I wasn't so terrible bad at the beginning, first 20 mins I think I was ahead, but next 20 mins was .... (you tell me).
The replay: ZvT (i'm playing Zerg ofc)
http://rapidshare.com/files/423434281/toosad_-_ZvT___Novice_Kulas_Ravine.SC2Replay
Please point my mistakes and tell me what to improve and how 
Still have few more games in practice league. Can you guess by my play in this replay, to what league it will most probably classify me?
Many thanks
|
toosad -->
1. Don't play those newbie maps with destructible rocks cause you will just learn bad habbits.
2. Scout!
3. Get your 3th and 4th expansions much earlier.
I think you are somewhere around gold but your opponent was bronze for sure.
|
On October 06 2010 22:09 toosad wrote:Newb zerg need some help
I'm playing SC2 for a few weeks, I was playing some SC2 beta earlier too. I decided to play full 50 practice league matches to get acquainted well with the game before going ladder. Yes, I know it can make some bad habbits, I'm trying to be aware of it. I am not satisfied with my results. I can win slightly above half of my games. My main worry are long games, I usually don't play well after 15-20 mins, making stupid mistakes, but don't know how to improve. I was searching TL for a topic to help newb like me and found only this one - if it's not a proper place for that, excuse me and move it to the right place, tnx. This is the sample replay. In my opinion, I wasn't so terrible bad at the beginning, first 20 mins I think I was ahead, but next 20 mins was .... (you tell me). The replay: ZvT (i'm playing Zerg ofc) http://rapidshare.com/files/423434281/toosad_-_ZvT___Novice_Kulas_Ravine.SC2ReplayPlease point my mistakes and tell me what to improve and how Still have few more games in practice league. Can you guess by my play in this replay, to what league it will most probably classify me? Many thanks
I suggest u watch day9 if u dont know him yet. http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4210235/ this is one of his recent shows.
ur mistakes are pretty basic and i guess will be ranked somewhere in bronze but u can make ur way up the ladder pretty fast if u improve on the basic stuff.
http://www.sc2rep.com/ ---> here u can find good replays of pro zerg...just watch a few of them and maybe take notes what they are doing...then ask urself if u know why is he doing this? if u cant answere that come back in this thread and ask
Here are the most obvious mistakes u made just by speeding through the replay on 4x:
In general u should open hatch first especially on a novice map where ur opponent cant attack u straight forward but i see that you have problems with that as a beginner. So u opon 15 pool 15 gas i think and u are going for speedlings. To open 14 gas 14 pool will allow you to have 100 gas at the time the pool finishes. Then you should rly get ur expansion at 20-21 after 4-6 early lings to defend of an early reaper. You NEED the fast expansion against terran if u play against better players.
Then u had way to less drones. As zerg u allways want to make drones unless u are fully saturated on all of ur bases or u need units to defend. To find the line between making drones and units is pretty hard at the start but again watch replays and watch when do the good players make drones and when units and try to find the reason why they do so.
Well then just basic macro mistakes. Getting supply blocked and then building 5 overlords at once at 30 food is quite bad since u dont need that many overlords that soon. Ur queen energy is getting high. Ur multitasking is pretty bad u have workers sitting around for a long time instead of going at ur expansion at the gold. Then when u saw those banshees u built like 6 spores in ur main where u were mined out anyways. Totaly overreacting since u had hydras which are just fine against banshees since u had an overseer around.
So in general improve on ur macro!! Keep minerals low! Just build SHIT! It doesnt even matter what u build so much if u atleast build stuff (Ofc u wont win with corruptors only). DONT GET SUPPLY BLOCKED. and send overlords over the map to scout if ur opponent is moving out.
I suggest u go into the next games maybe even against AI or alone on the map and just macro. U build 14 gas 14 pool and expansion around 21 and just try to keep ur minerals low and allways inject larvae. U drone up...after u did this u try to get 200 supply ASAP. U do this one hour straight and u should see how much faster u are getting to ur 200 supply. Ofc u cant allways do this in a real game since opponents will pressure u but well its best u can do imo.
Pretty sure i forgot a lot of stuff i wanted to say :D But i hope it helps atleast a little bit. Just focus on ur macro and then u can worry about the 10.000 timing attacks that terran can throw at you
If u care ~1600 diamond zerg
|
On October 06 2010 06:33 ToxNub wrote:
1. Upgrades are very important. Armor +1 on roaches is a massive difference when you fight lings. I'd say that lings actually beat roaches before this upgrade. +1 armor is also very important for hydras against mutalisk. I try to get my +1 armor before my first roach push reaches their base.
I think its necessary to correct this misassumption. You're particularly right, the same supply of 0/0 Speedlings will always beat 0/0 Roaches (exception: fighting at a choke) as long as we are talking about early game numbers.
But if we are really talking pure Speedlings vs Roaches you should obt for +1 attack instead of armor (though that's kind of silly, since its better to add some banes against pure Speedlings, since they can be used to defend you mineralline as well as soon as you move out and deny a runby that kills all your workers). I've tested it in the Unit Tester with 20 and 30 supply of units, and the +1 attack always works out better (at 20 supply the +1 armor Roaches even lose against the Lings). That's because it gives Roaches the ability to 2-shot Lings instead of 3-shotting them, and the faster killing of the Lings results in a better Dps decrease (of the Lings) than the additional armor.
|
On October 06 2010 22:50 KiaL.Kiwi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 06:33 ToxNub wrote:
1. Upgrades are very important. Armor +1 on roaches is a massive difference when you fight lings. I'd say that lings actually beat roaches before this upgrade. +1 armor is also very important for hydras against mutalisk. I try to get my +1 armor before my first roach push reaches their base.
I think its necessary to correct this misassumption. You're particularly right, the same supply of 0/0 Speedlings will always beat 0/0 Roaches (exception: fighting at a choke) as long as we are talking about early game numbers. But if we are really talking pure Speedlings vs Roaches you should obt for +1 attack instead of armor (though that's kind of silly, since its better to add some banes against pure Speedlings, since they can be used to defend you mineralline as well as soon as you move out and deny a runby that kills all your workers). I've tested it in the Unit Tester with 20 and 30 supply of units, and the +1 attack always works out better (at 20 supply the +1 armor Roaches even lose against the Lings). That's because it gives Roaches the ability to 2-shot Lings instead of 3-shotting them, and the faster killing of the Lings results in a better Dps decrease (of the Lings) than the additional armor.
I checked into this and I think you're right. Even from a purely defensive standpoint, your wall would actually be stronger with +1 weapon roaches. Nice to know my build is going to do even better now  In any case, both upgrades make a massive difference against ling.
|
http://screplays.com/replays/dave333/11007
~1200-1300 diamond. I started this one pretty strong. Mostly prevented hellion harass from doing much to me at the beginning, and held off that first thor push with minimal losses. Droned really hard, my economy was killing him. Especially because I wrecked his expo.
Then those mass thors really just wrecked me. I didn't have enough units probably, but I was mineral starved a lot of the time (lost lots of drones?). I guess I didn't get my third early enough either. I should've grabbed my third as I was killing his expo, and shoulda started hive for those ultras earlier.
Also my mutas were a waste they did nothing :/
Anything else you guys think killed me?
|
Hey guys, I'm a gold level zerg and I've had some trouble with phoenix harass. Even if I scout it, whats the best way to defend? spire -> curruptors? I usually get 2 queens at my hatches but 4 phoenixes can kill that and then I'm left with nothing to defend my overlords. Hydras maybe? thats kinda bad tho because they just counter with collossi.
Please help, thanks
|
How do I counter 1 base thor pushes?
I'm stuck at 1100,
Basically the last 5 terrans I played did this to me. I 15 hatch, then I scout armory + tech labed factory, so i spam roaches like crazy, and they just 1 push me with thor + scvs to repair, + marine/helion/maraduer support.
Basically, what do I do in these games? I know if I can hold off the attack ill be good but,
do people generally get banelings to kill the repairing scvs? how do you guys handle it? thanks.
|
On October 07 2010 04:23 blith wrote:
How do I counter 1 base thor pushes?
I'm stuck at 1100,
Basically the last 5 terrans I played did this to me. I 15 hatch, then I scout armory + tech labed factory, so i spam roaches like crazy, and they just 1 push me with thor + scvs to repair, + marine/helion/maraduer support.
Basically, what do I do in these games? I know if I can hold off the attack ill be good but,
do people generally get banelings to kill the repairing scvs? how do you guys handle it? thanks.
1350 Diamond, take with a grain of salt.
I've had success with +1 roach/bling/spling with proper positioning/flanking. The build order is very standard (see Saracen's vs T build); sac an ovie @ 35ish supply (or earlier I suppose) to check what the bio v mech composition is looking like. As long as I know when T is pushing out, I can get out an extra wave or two of roach support. Blings melt SCV/marine; +1 (or even +2) Roaches focus down Thors surprisingly well, while splings tank/surround.
If they are going 3-4 Thor + rauder/rine + hellion, magic boxed mutas en masse + splings work wonders (but quickly loses efficacy as Thor numbers rise!)...Honestly, I'm much more confident with roach/spling/bling. I actually love when T goes Thor -- I am much more terrified of well-microed dual drops into bioball / tank. 
|
On October 07 2010 03:55 SirJebadiah wrote:
Hey guys, I'm a gold level zerg and I've had some trouble with phoenix harass. Even if I scout it, whats the best way to defend? spire -> curruptors? I usually get 2 queens at my hatches but 4 phoenixes can kill that and then I'm left with nothing to defend my overlords. Hydras maybe? thats kinda bad tho because they just counter with collossi.
Please help, thanks
Against Stargate tech, just go hydras. Toss can't tech switch as quickly, or as cheaply as we can. If he tries to switch to colossus after seeing your hydra, it'll take him so long to get colossi out, that you should have ultras at the ready.
On October 07 2010 04:23 blith wrote:
How do I counter 1 base thor pushes?
I'm stuck at 1100,
Basically the last 5 terrans I played did this to me. I 15 hatch, then I scout armory + tech labed factory, so i spam roaches like crazy, and they just 1 push me with thor + scvs to repair, + marine/helion/maraduer support.
Basically, what do I do in these games? I know if I can hold off the attack ill be good but,
do people generally get banelings to kill the repairing scvs? how do you guys handle it? thanks.
This is a question that I'd love to see fielded by Saracen or Darkforce, but I'm going to give it a shot.
Lately there's been a build floating around the higher levels that involves going Hydra+Infestor. Fungal will own any bio as well as SCVs, making it easy for the Hydra to clean up. This is the build I've been using almost exclusively since finding out about it, and it does fantastically well against just about everything. (Obviously siege tanks cause problems, but that's what lings and drop is for)
There are some great examples of this build in Artosis's recent replay pack, which can be found here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=157426
On October 07 2010 01:37 dave333 wrote:http://screplays.com/replays/dave333/11007~1200-1300 diamond. I started this one pretty strong. Mostly prevented hellion harass from doing much to me at the beginning, and held off that first thor push with minimal losses. Droned really hard, my economy was killing him. Especially because I wrecked his expo. Then those mass thors really just wrecked me. I didn't have enough units probably, but I was mineral starved a lot of the time (lost lots of drones?). I guess I didn't get my third early enough either. I should've grabbed my third as I was killing his expo, and shoulda started hive for those ultras earlier. Also my mutas were a waste they did nothing :/ Anything else you guys think killed me?
Without watching your replay, I'm going to recommend you check out the Artosis pack I mentioned above.
= D
|
Got a very important question for late game zerg strategy-
What should be my criteria for choosing Brood Lords or Ultras?
I'm a zerg who loves going muta/ling- and upgrade/tech wise this unit comp transitions perfectly into either, but what should make me want to get BL's as opposed to ultras and vice versa?
BL's give me the advantage of breaking down static defenses, while ultras are a huge sponge. Is range or splash my biggest concern? Essentially, with BL's engaging forces in chokes becomes manageable while ultras need an open field to maximize their surround and damage output.
Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
