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On October 02 2010 06:18 ryanAnger wrote:
Jeff, as long as you can spend your money, you will win as Zerg. At this point, don't worry about strategies, or micro, or any of that "high-level" stuff. Just get a good economy going, and spend all of your money. Build extra hatches if you need to build units faster. If you can spend your money well, you'll make it into Diamond no problem.
I think I've been doing a good job keeping my minerals low, my apm sits at about 70 on average, I've just found 0 transition time to utilize tier 3 nor learn how to truly utilize units such as: Baneling, Infestor, Corruptor, etc.
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Game 1: Poking up the ramp you saw a tech lab fact and a hellion shooting at you. Therefore you know he's probably not doing tank marine, and instead doing something involving hellions. You made 5 drones after you saw him moving out with blue flame - greedy. Your crawlers were afk in your main....definitely want to build those at your nat. Sure he could run up the ramp with hellions, but that's why I usually block the ramp with queens and evacuate some drones prematurely. If you don't have a roach warren you need a lot of lings to stop this push...more than you had anyway. I think if you had made those 20 lings earlier i.e. before that last round of drones, and put those 2 crawlers at your nat you could have held this attack.
Game 2: Losing 2 OL really, really hurts early. He early raxed last game too so you probably should've been a bit more careful with your overlords. You made a roach warren this game, but you still need speedlings to deal with this. IMO defending with pure roach is pretty difficult in any matchup.
Again, take my advice with a grain of salt, I'm currently only sitting at 1500pt and not top 200 or anything like that. I'd like to see saracen + co. come back and take a look at this though and see how well their advice does/does not align with mine 
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On October 01 2010 03:09 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 02:08 ToxNub wrote:On October 01 2010 01:44 sooch wrote:On October 01 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote:
I'm starting to like Hydra/Infestor in ZvZ.
Any top players using this unit comp, or is it all sling/bling/muta? Army vs army I think it's easily the best midgame unit comp due to obvious reasons (hydras outrange everything). You do sacrifice a lot of map control though...I've been wanting to try experimenting with nydus worms on larger maps (i.e. non-blistering non-steppes) so that you can force encounters at his base without abandoning your own. I think that would mitigate a lot of the hydra mobility problems. disclaimer: not a top player, obviously Nydus play is pretty much standard 1k+ ZvZ... I recommend you start experimenting  o.O 1400+ and I've seen Nydus play once in ZvZ. Ever.
Same here. I actually might want to try it more though. I had someone do a super early roach nydus into my base which was pretty devistating. I think there may be some potential. A risk i see in doing it though, is that the opponent runs speedlings in your base right after you nydus into his and forces you to commit to the nydus play.
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On October 02 2010 06:42 Morik wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 00:47 mololu wrote:On October 01 2010 23:49 Allscorpion wrote:
What is the most efficent way of queen control groups, I cant decide between 5,6,7 or all of 5!! PLZ HELP. Working my way up from bronze to plat I found that all queens on (in my case 9) and hatches on (in my case 0) worked best. I either inject over map if I don't have my hatches on the screen, otherwise I use the screen (depends on how much micro/macro is going on). I'd however say go with what works best, not with what is theoretically the most efficient. What matters is which option makes playing easier for you specifically. One advantage of all queens in one group is if you need to pull them to defend, you don't have to go through all your hotkeys which (for me) makes things simpler. Something I learned from asking a similar question earlier in the thread: Its helpful to keep a single hatch in a control group by itself. (E.g., I have all queens on 4, all hatches on 5, one hatch on 6) While doing other things, you can hit your one hatch hotkey to check the progress of spawn larva. Prior to putting a single hatch on its own key, I ws just sort of guessing when spawn was done, and seeing if I could spawn again. Now, I just tap 6, keep an eye on it (that is, check back every so often--not leave the hatch selected all the time), and then I can inject right on time. (Well, ideally... I usually end up being like 'oh crap, its already done' when I go check it, but I'm working on it)
Shit, that's a really good idea. I never thought of that.
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I don't feel like watching the reps, but it's really map dependent whatever your build/response to scouting.
Basically:
9 drone scout, 10 lord, extractor trick
15gas/15pool, 16lord, queen, 2-4lings (scout further around for proxy stuff as well as his nat/main), metabolic boost (take the 3 off gas), [ Expand, 2 drones, these might be out of order] queen #2, roach warren, 3 back to gas. First 25 spawn larva, 2nd 25 lay tumor towards nat, send her to nat hatch (when she gets there spawn larva). Gonna want to get 2nd gas when main mins are saturated (16-20 drones).
All this time you should also be poking around with overlords and those lings you had. When speed is done on lings, you can poke him up the ramp and see his tech. If it's blue flame hell, you usually see the rax and factory right there and the shit behind. But it could also mean fast thor drop, fast tank/marine attack, or a star port gonna switch to the tech lab for banshee. Or in your case, you should see barack with tech and factory with tech.
keep poking up the ramp and leaving the ling outside the ramp every 15-30 seconds. If he gets damaged, switch him with another fresh ling whos just hanging out at a watchtower or something. You can switch them back and forth and never lose them if you're careful enough.
Anyways, you will see his build coming ( i think the timing is around 8-10 minutes) so your hatch should be well done by then. You should have been only making drones up to about 30~40 before you make more than the 2 queens and 2-4 lings and maybe 3-5 roaches from earlier to block ramp from hellions and keep them out of your expo if they come by themselves.
You're gonna want to have supply(lords finished) and lots of larva ready to pump out 15-20 lings and 10 or so roaches. If you can manage it, blings work really well on hellions too because they are light units and blings are not.
The attack should be coming when you have lair finishing or sometime around there. Probably shouldn't be getting 3rd gas until after this is defeated. When you stop it, unfortunately zerg arent really equipped to counter attack so it's best to just mass out a few more volleys of drones and try and delay his expo if it's not down yet. Get up to 4 geyser going, get your roach speed, baneling speed, carapace upgrade, (maybe melee upgrade too on 2nd evo), Overlord speed (and/or overseer), another hatch inside your main or an expansion.
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Very new Zerg player here, bronze league ftw...
I've looked through some of the thread, and have been using the BO against terran with great success.
I was just wondering if there was a similar BO I could use against protoss as well?
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How much early game aggression do I need as Zerg? How much will infestor play improve me?
I'm ~1100/1200 diamond zerg and I find I rarely ever do much early aggression beyond some occasional ling runbys and just harassing their base. Come to think of it, there are very few times I've pushed without tier 2 (I've done a baneling bust once ZvT or ZvP in like over a hundred games) I basically just sit back, macro, and play safe. Wait for their push and slow down their push through harass, get the correct counters, destroy their push and do a mass counterattack thanks to harss. I think this is why my ZvZ suffers quite a bit; I'm not nearly aggressive enough. It's working, but would more early game aggression improve my game?
As for infestors....I have to admit, i rarely use em. I'm not sure how i got this far without them since fungal is so useful, but really I hardly ever use fungal, and have never used neural parasite or infested terran. In the same vein, I've used on Brood Lords only a few times and rely on Ultras as my t3 to go. I'd say 70% of the games I play I don't go to Hive.
As of now, I feel about as autopilot when it comes to zerg as can be. Against protoss, I just 14 hatch then go mass lings to hold off warp gate pushes and get lots of queens to defend against void ray cheese, then tech to muta/ling-->ultra if needed. ZvT I go either muta/ling/bling or throw in mass roach if they go mech with a 14 pool/14 gas opening. Extra queens+scout for banshees are the only times I actually feel the game is different.
I suck hard at ZvZ. I've tried roach builds, failed with them, so I've gone and have been doing ling/bling with some success.
Should effective infestor play auto make me better? lol. Should I be doing early aggression or just keep playing defense and macroing?
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On October 03 2010 05:12 Malminos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 03:09 MrBitter wrote:On October 01 2010 02:08 ToxNub wrote:On October 01 2010 01:44 sooch wrote:On October 01 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote:
I'm starting to like Hydra/Infestor in ZvZ.
Any top players using this unit comp, or is it all sling/bling/muta? Army vs army I think it's easily the best midgame unit comp due to obvious reasons (hydras outrange everything). You do sacrifice a lot of map control though...I've been wanting to try experimenting with nydus worms on larger maps (i.e. non-blistering non-steppes) so that you can force encounters at his base without abandoning your own. I think that would mitigate a lot of the hydra mobility problems. disclaimer: not a top player, obviously Nydus play is pretty much standard 1k+ ZvZ... I recommend you start experimenting o.O 1400+ and I've seen Nydus play once in ZvZ. Ever. Same here. I actually might want to try it more though. I had someone do a super early roach nydus into my base which was pretty devistating. I think there may be some potential. A risk i see in doing it though, is that the opponent runs speedlings in your base right after you nydus into his and forces you to commit to the nydus play.
Then just bring your roaches back through the nydus worm :p or run your drones into the nydus. I generally ramp block with 2 roach so i have enough time to move back if I have to.
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I've noticed a lot of people prefer going from muta/ling and transitioning into ultras-
Doesn't it make more sense transition into BL's?
Day9's example of "smooth transition" was that of protoss tech- if one DT rushes, then it is easier to transition into HT's because of the twilight council-
Apply this to zerg- isn't it easier to go from muta/ling into BL's because of all that gas spent of air already?
Of course- I guess the counterargument is that if one spends more gas on melee/carapace upgrades then ultras would be easier to transition into.
What is your guy's say on this split of style?
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By far my hardest matchup right now is ZvP. My ZvT has improved immensely from using banelings and being more reliant on speedlings and harassing with mutas. However: I'm finding vsing a protoss very difficult. This is mainly due to stalkers. It seems once they get a reasonable amount I can't make nearly enough speedlings to drop them. What do I do meta game and what are common strats against the common 2 gate- 4 gate transition?
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On October 03 2010 08:03 Jeffbelittle wrote:
By far my hardest matchup right now is ZvP. My ZvT has improved immensely from using banelings and being more reliant on speedlings and harassing with mutas. However: I'm finding vsing a protoss very difficult. This is mainly due to stalkers. It seems once they get a reasonable amount I can't make nearly enough speedlings to drop them. What do I do meta game and what are common strats against the common 2 gate- 4 gate transition?
You should try Dimaga's Speedling build. It stops 4 gate cold.
14 Pool
13 Gas
15 Ovie
--3 on gas when its done
--Queen when Pool is done
20 Speed for Lings
22 Hatch (Expand)
22 Evo Chamber
-After you mine your 2nd 100 gas (as in, you got speed already, and you now have another 100 gas) pull all 3 drones off gas and put them back on minerals
-Get +1 Melee
22 4 Drones
So now, you have 26 Drones on minerals, your Speed/Expo are just about done, and your +1 is started. When the Expo pops put half your drones down there to mine, and then just pump lings until about 40-50 supply. When the push comes, you'll have about 40-50 Lings that are either +1, or about to be. This just shuts it down. From there, you can counter attack, and probably win outright, or tech to Lair and get Roaches. If hes not doing well scouting, he'll mass Zealot/Sentry, so Roaches is the easiest thing you can acquire that counters that.
GLHF
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I just realized why zerg late game is good. It's cause their macro is soo easy, just build a bunch of ultras or blords and your macro is automatically realllyy good.
http://screplays.com/replays/dave333/10568
Anyway, i thought this was a very well played game by me, and was a decent game overall I think though I think my opponent could've been a lot better Not every aspect was that good; early game macro was bit off, i made 2 baneling nests, creep spread wasn't that great early, a hydra den by accident (turned out useful anyway). But in terms of holding off early pushes, I thought I was doing pretty well in terms of slowing their push down so I could get enough defense.
This is how I hold off pushes; I think it works pretty well. Are there better options? I am usually not sure if I should get a baneling nest sooner; it might make it holding those early pushes easier?
I notice my APM seems a bit low. I think it's because i really don't micro my armies too much; I pretty much leave it up to flank, some AI pathing and some baneling targeting. I don't spam movement controls to my army. only when it is a small force vs. small force do i do some more micro. my effective micro is pretty good i think though, i pulled off effective multiple front attacks, i was pretty good with larva management, and my army attacking is good enough.
Also I didn't use infestors...I suppose they would've helped.
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On October 03 2010 07:52 Zvendetta wrote:
I've noticed a lot of people prefer going from muta/ling and transitioning into ultras-
Doesn't it make more sense transition into BL's?
Day9's example of "smooth transition" was that of protoss tech- if one DT rushes, then it is easier to transition into HT's because of the twilight council-
Apply this to zerg- isn't it easier to go from muta/ling into BL's because of all that gas spent of air already?
Of course- I guess the counterargument is that if one spends more gas on melee/carapace upgrades then ultras would be easier to transition into.
What is your guy's say on this split of style?
Well the thing with ling/muta into ultra is that you have your ultra upgrades (because you want to upgrade the lings) and the greater spire is roughly equal to an ultra cavern at this point.
The big difference is in mobility. You can not defend then quickly counter with broodlords whereas ultras will really punish a failed attack by the opponent. Ultras also break through a mass of thors/tanks much better, not because broodlords can't do it but because ultras don't allow an escape because they move much faster than mech.
Add to that the fact that broodlords die really fast to vikings or blink stalkers (both very accessible units by the time you are at t3) and are more expensive/have longer build and you have the reason why people often prefer ultras.
There are reasons to get broodlords (mostly too many marauders with a few thors and marines to counter mutas) but in the average game the ultras just work better, especially versus mech.
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Broodlords are really useful if you keep 2-3 with your main army, forcing your opponent to engage. Most ppl backstab with them, which seems to be a mistake.
Also, as with most zerg units, ultralisks are not good once you get past a certain number (6-12 depending on the map). At that point, adding in a few broodlords is better than more ultras, and they benefit from the same upgrades.
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you mean because the broodlings get extra armour? :D
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Like in broodwar people had 40 minute gameplans, or atleast people had the timings down for when you are getting hive tech units and but even with playing sc2 for months (including beta) i have yet to make a gameplan that goes beyond the 10 minute game mark.
Now im 1k points into diamond and i believe its time to atleast start fleshing out the big broad strokes and stop playing by ear. However with zerg because your gameplan for any safe build is defending until hive tech and because terran and protoss are so unique and awesome. How can one go about making such a plan?
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Question: How can i keep my minerals low? early game i do fine keeping my minerals and gas low, but once i reach late game i end up having 4k minerals and 50 gas while on 2base both with double gas. What is a good use for these minerals? when i hit 1k i usually throw down an extra hatch in my main so i dont need anymore hatches. Help please!
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On October 04 2010 02:35 jojoleb wrote:Hi guys ! with regards to my previous post concerning to my problems with 4gate. is there anyone that can help me ? i get massacred when m around 60-70 supply and the Protoss 4 gate absolutely destroys me(even 3gate robo) !! and i cant do anything !! replay available, EDIT(1): was able to post it here http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=154490
1000 diamond here, take my advice how you will:
I really like going dimaga style with speedling and attack upgardes (assuming you dont see a forge). There are some times where I feel pressured and make some t2 units, but usually zergling into ultras works well for me.
Here is the thread talking about it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150899
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EPT
