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On October 11 2010 16:17 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 01:09 DoubleReed wrote:If you have them out-based, but his maxed army is stronger than you, start dropping him or countering him when he moves out. If he decides to continue on with his attack you are going to do huge damage to his economy or production(depending on where you attack), and it's depending on how much you expanded, he's going to take a hell of a lot longer to clean up your tech/bases than you. The only problem is: this is what I'm doing. You are encouraging me to basetrade and go into an 'almost lose' situation even though I should have a massive advantage. Even if I completely outmacro my opponent, the only way I can win is if I almost lose? Smart terrans will always try to force a basetrade because if I lose my corruptors/mutalisks then I lose. I have basetraded every game that has come to this point. I don't want to get into an extremely high-risk situation if I have a commanding lead. This is really not what I wanted to hear. Is this really the way I'm supposed to play Zerg? Wanna post some of these replays? I don't know how you can have 2-3 more bases than your opponent and still have a basetrade situation be an "almost lose" situation. Maybe you just need to practice the proper way to play during those kinds of situations.
He wants to know what the proper way to play during that kind of situation. Maybe he should practice it without knowing what the proper way is.
If your opponent is turtling hard and you dont feel like attacking him just camp outside his base in a nice concave while getting all your upgrades, get some static defense at each base to negate harass. When he moves out trade armies with him, if he wins he will still have to move across the whole map to start dealing dmg to you, buying you precious time to remax on ultras or whatever you decide.
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On October 11 2010 16:28 Xog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 16:17 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 01:09 DoubleReed wrote:If you have them out-based, but his maxed army is stronger than you, start dropping him or countering him when he moves out. If he decides to continue on with his attack you are going to do huge damage to his economy or production(depending on where you attack), and it's depending on how much you expanded, he's going to take a hell of a lot longer to clean up your tech/bases than you. The only problem is: this is what I'm doing. You are encouraging me to basetrade and go into an 'almost lose' situation even though I should have a massive advantage. Even if I completely outmacro my opponent, the only way I can win is if I almost lose? Smart terrans will always try to force a basetrade because if I lose my corruptors/mutalisks then I lose. I have basetraded every game that has come to this point. I don't want to get into an extremely high-risk situation if I have a commanding lead. This is really not what I wanted to hear. Is this really the way I'm supposed to play Zerg? Wanna post some of these replays? I don't know how you can have 2-3 more bases than your opponent and still have a basetrade situation be an "almost lose" situation. Maybe you just need to practice the proper way to play during those kinds of situations. He wants to know what the proper way to play during that kind of situation. Maybe he should practice it without knowing what the proper way is. If your opponent is turtling hard and you dont feel like attacking him just camp outside his base in a nice concave while getting all your upgrades, get some static defense at each base to negate harass. When he moves out trade armies with him, if he wins he will still have to move across the whole map to start dealing dmg to you, buying you precious time to remax on ultras or whatever you decide.
No, he wants to know a different solution because he thinks that isn't the best way to play it. And that advice is the exact opposite of what you should do. Terran armies are almost always stronger than zerg armies when they are both maxed, unless you are already at ultra or broodlord tech. The real answer is to tech faster if you think T is just going to bunker down and wait until max, so that you have room for ultras in your supply cap.
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On October 11 2010 16:28 Xog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 16:17 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 01:09 DoubleReed wrote:If you have them out-based, but his maxed army is stronger than you, start dropping him or countering him when he moves out. If he decides to continue on with his attack you are going to do huge damage to his economy or production(depending on where you attack), and it's depending on how much you expanded, he's going to take a hell of a lot longer to clean up your tech/bases than you. The only problem is: this is what I'm doing. You are encouraging me to basetrade and go into an 'almost lose' situation even though I should have a massive advantage. Even if I completely outmacro my opponent, the only way I can win is if I almost lose? Smart terrans will always try to force a basetrade because if I lose my corruptors/mutalisks then I lose. I have basetraded every game that has come to this point. I don't want to get into an extremely high-risk situation if I have a commanding lead. This is really not what I wanted to hear. Is this really the way I'm supposed to play Zerg? Wanna post some of these replays? I don't know how you can have 2-3 more bases than your opponent and still have a basetrade situation be an "almost lose" situation. Maybe you just need to practice the proper way to play during those kinds of situations. He wants to know what the proper way to play during that kind of situation. Maybe he should practice it without knowing what the proper way is. If your opponent is turtling hard and you dont feel like attacking him just camp outside his base in a nice concave while getting all your upgrades, get some static defense at each base to negate harass. When he moves out trade armies with him, if he wins he will still have to move across the whole map to start dealing dmg to you, buying you precious time to remax on ultras or whatever you decide.
Please don't take this advice.
If you're playing against a Terran who's going to turtle on 2 base until he can make a death push, you just have to make sure that you have your hive tech in play in time to combat it, while still managing to stay a base up.
Admittedly it can be a real dick to deal with, especially against an opponent who is able to harass effectively while he macros.
Sixghost is right: Ultras aren't as good against mech as they were before their cleave was nerfed, but you're still going to have to get some out if you plan on holding that first push.
Broods are great if you can get to them, but they're so slow in getting out, and in moving around.
Really there is no easy answer. You have to stay on top of your macro while defending your expos and staying at least one base up. =\
Edit: And I know you don't want to base race vs a Terran, but you really should utilize drop if and when you can. 8 roaches on his depots can really change the outcome of a game if you time it with his first push, and hinder his ability to resupply his army.
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On October 11 2010 16:32 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 16:28 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:17 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 01:09 DoubleReed wrote:If you have them out-based, but his maxed army is stronger than you, start dropping him or countering him when he moves out. If he decides to continue on with his attack you are going to do huge damage to his economy or production(depending on where you attack), and it's depending on how much you expanded, he's going to take a hell of a lot longer to clean up your tech/bases than you. The only problem is: this is what I'm doing. You are encouraging me to basetrade and go into an 'almost lose' situation even though I should have a massive advantage. Even if I completely outmacro my opponent, the only way I can win is if I almost lose? Smart terrans will always try to force a basetrade because if I lose my corruptors/mutalisks then I lose. I have basetraded every game that has come to this point. I don't want to get into an extremely high-risk situation if I have a commanding lead. This is really not what I wanted to hear. Is this really the way I'm supposed to play Zerg? Wanna post some of these replays? I don't know how you can have 2-3 more bases than your opponent and still have a basetrade situation be an "almost lose" situation. Maybe you just need to practice the proper way to play during those kinds of situations. He wants to know what the proper way to play during that kind of situation. Maybe he should practice it without knowing what the proper way is. If your opponent is turtling hard and you dont feel like attacking him just camp outside his base in a nice concave while getting all your upgrades, get some static defense at each base to negate harass. When he moves out trade armies with him, if he wins he will still have to move across the whole map to start dealing dmg to you, buying you precious time to remax on ultras or whatever you decide. No, he wants to know a different solution because he thinks that isn't the best way to play it. And that advice is the exact opposite of what you should do. Terran armies are almost always stronger than zerg armies when they are both maxed, unless you are already at ultra or broodlord tech. The real answer is to tech faster if you think T is just going to bunker down and wait until max, so that you have room for ultras in your supply cap.
Maybe you should reread his original post. He wants a solution that isnt your coinflip base trade idea.
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On October 11 2010 16:38 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 16:28 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:17 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 01:09 DoubleReed wrote:If you have them out-based, but his maxed army is stronger than you, start dropping him or countering him when he moves out. If he decides to continue on with his attack you are going to do huge damage to his economy or production(depending on where you attack), and it's depending on how much you expanded, he's going to take a hell of a lot longer to clean up your tech/bases than you. The only problem is: this is what I'm doing. You are encouraging me to basetrade and go into an 'almost lose' situation even though I should have a massive advantage. Even if I completely outmacro my opponent, the only way I can win is if I almost lose? Smart terrans will always try to force a basetrade because if I lose my corruptors/mutalisks then I lose. I have basetraded every game that has come to this point. I don't want to get into an extremely high-risk situation if I have a commanding lead. This is really not what I wanted to hear. Is this really the way I'm supposed to play Zerg? Wanna post some of these replays? I don't know how you can have 2-3 more bases than your opponent and still have a basetrade situation be an "almost lose" situation. Maybe you just need to practice the proper way to play during those kinds of situations. He wants to know what the proper way to play during that kind of situation. Maybe he should practice it without knowing what the proper way is. If your opponent is turtling hard and you dont feel like attacking him just camp outside his base in a nice concave while getting all your upgrades, get some static defense at each base to negate harass. When he moves out trade armies with him, if he wins he will still have to move across the whole map to start dealing dmg to you, buying you precious time to remax on ultras or whatever you decide. Please don't take this advice. If you're playing against a Terran who's going to turtle on 2 base until he can make a death push, you just have to make sure that you have your hive tech in play in time to combat it, while still managing to stay a base up. Admittedly it can be a real dick to deal with, especially against an opponent who is able to harass effectively while he macros. Sixghost is right: Ultras aren't as good against mech as they were before their cleave was nerfed, but you're still going to have to get some out if you plan on holding that first push. Broods are great if you can get to them, but they're so slow in getting out, and in moving around. Really there is no easy answer. You have to stay on top of your macro while defending your expos and staying at least one base up. =\
It's the blind leading the blind. Honestly this thread has turned into sub par zergs advising like they have a clue what they are talking about. Re read his original post in which he states that he is maxed at 200.
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On October 11 2010 16:39 Xog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 16:32 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 16:28 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:17 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 01:09 DoubleReed wrote:If you have them out-based, but his maxed army is stronger than you, start dropping him or countering him when he moves out. If he decides to continue on with his attack you are going to do huge damage to his economy or production(depending on where you attack), and it's depending on how much you expanded, he's going to take a hell of a lot longer to clean up your tech/bases than you. The only problem is: this is what I'm doing. You are encouraging me to basetrade and go into an 'almost lose' situation even though I should have a massive advantage. Even if I completely outmacro my opponent, the only way I can win is if I almost lose? Smart terrans will always try to force a basetrade because if I lose my corruptors/mutalisks then I lose. I have basetraded every game that has come to this point. I don't want to get into an extremely high-risk situation if I have a commanding lead. This is really not what I wanted to hear. Is this really the way I'm supposed to play Zerg? Wanna post some of these replays? I don't know how you can have 2-3 more bases than your opponent and still have a basetrade situation be an "almost lose" situation. Maybe you just need to practice the proper way to play during those kinds of situations. He wants to know what the proper way to play during that kind of situation. Maybe he should practice it without knowing what the proper way is. If your opponent is turtling hard and you dont feel like attacking him just camp outside his base in a nice concave while getting all your upgrades, get some static defense at each base to negate harass. When he moves out trade armies with him, if he wins he will still have to move across the whole map to start dealing dmg to you, buying you precious time to remax on ultras or whatever you decide. No, he wants to know a different solution because he thinks that isn't the best way to play it. And that advice is the exact opposite of what you should do. Terran armies are almost always stronger than zerg armies when they are both maxed, unless you are already at ultra or broodlord tech. The real answer is to tech faster if you think T is just going to bunker down and wait until max, so that you have room for ultras in your supply cap. Maybe you should reread his original post. He wants a solution that isnt your coinflip base trade idea. Why do you think base trades are a coinflip?
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On October 11 2010 16:44 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 16:39 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:32 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 16:28 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:17 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 01:09 DoubleReed wrote:If you have them out-based, but his maxed army is stronger than you, start dropping him or countering him when he moves out. If he decides to continue on with his attack you are going to do huge damage to his economy or production(depending on where you attack), and it's depending on how much you expanded, he's going to take a hell of a lot longer to clean up your tech/bases than you. The only problem is: this is what I'm doing. You are encouraging me to basetrade and go into an 'almost lose' situation even though I should have a massive advantage. Even if I completely outmacro my opponent, the only way I can win is if I almost lose? Smart terrans will always try to force a basetrade because if I lose my corruptors/mutalisks then I lose. I have basetraded every game that has come to this point. I don't want to get into an extremely high-risk situation if I have a commanding lead. This is really not what I wanted to hear. Is this really the way I'm supposed to play Zerg? Wanna post some of these replays? I don't know how you can have 2-3 more bases than your opponent and still have a basetrade situation be an "almost lose" situation. Maybe you just need to practice the proper way to play during those kinds of situations. He wants to know what the proper way to play during that kind of situation. Maybe he should practice it without knowing what the proper way is. If your opponent is turtling hard and you dont feel like attacking him just camp outside his base in a nice concave while getting all your upgrades, get some static defense at each base to negate harass. When he moves out trade armies with him, if he wins he will still have to move across the whole map to start dealing dmg to you, buying you precious time to remax on ultras or whatever you decide. No, he wants to know a different solution because he thinks that isn't the best way to play it. And that advice is the exact opposite of what you should do. Terran armies are almost always stronger than zerg armies when they are both maxed, unless you are already at ultra or broodlord tech. The real answer is to tech faster if you think T is just going to bunker down and wait until max, so that you have room for ultras in your supply cap. Maybe you should reread his original post. He wants a solution that isnt your coinflip base trade idea. Why do you think base trades are a coinflip?
Any base trade is going to be a loss for Z by virtue of the fact that T can lift...
What are we arguing about?
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On October 11 2010 16:44 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 16:39 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:32 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 16:28 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:17 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 01:09 DoubleReed wrote:If you have them out-based, but his maxed army is stronger than you, start dropping him or countering him when he moves out. If he decides to continue on with his attack you are going to do huge damage to his economy or production(depending on where you attack), and it's depending on how much you expanded, he's going to take a hell of a lot longer to clean up your tech/bases than you. The only problem is: this is what I'm doing. You are encouraging me to basetrade and go into an 'almost lose' situation even though I should have a massive advantage. Even if I completely outmacro my opponent, the only way I can win is if I almost lose? Smart terrans will always try to force a basetrade because if I lose my corruptors/mutalisks then I lose. I have basetraded every game that has come to this point. I don't want to get into an extremely high-risk situation if I have a commanding lead. This is really not what I wanted to hear. Is this really the way I'm supposed to play Zerg? Wanna post some of these replays? I don't know how you can have 2-3 more bases than your opponent and still have a basetrade situation be an "almost lose" situation. Maybe you just need to practice the proper way to play during those kinds of situations. He wants to know what the proper way to play during that kind of situation. Maybe he should practice it without knowing what the proper way is. If your opponent is turtling hard and you dont feel like attacking him just camp outside his base in a nice concave while getting all your upgrades, get some static defense at each base to negate harass. When he moves out trade armies with him, if he wins he will still have to move across the whole map to start dealing dmg to you, buying you precious time to remax on ultras or whatever you decide. No, he wants to know a different solution because he thinks that isn't the best way to play it. And that advice is the exact opposite of what you should do. Terran armies are almost always stronger than zerg armies when they are both maxed, unless you are already at ultra or broodlord tech. The real answer is to tech faster if you think T is just going to bunker down and wait until max, so that you have room for ultras in your supply cap. Maybe you should reread his original post. He wants a solution that isnt your coinflip base trade idea. Why do you think base trades are a coinflip?
Nice ninja edit. Terrans can lift. If you base trade a terran you are betting on your army eventually destroying his. You both destroy each others base. He lifts, you lose everything. You hustle back to save your last 2 mining expansions and rebuilding tech structures. You fight and whoever wins the battle takes the game.
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On October 11 2010 16:54 Xog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 16:44 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 16:39 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:32 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 16:28 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:17 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 01:09 DoubleReed wrote:If you have them out-based, but his maxed army is stronger than you, start dropping him or countering him when he moves out. If he decides to continue on with his attack you are going to do huge damage to his economy or production(depending on where you attack), and it's depending on how much you expanded, he's going to take a hell of a lot longer to clean up your tech/bases than you. The only problem is: this is what I'm doing. You are encouraging me to basetrade and go into an 'almost lose' situation even though I should have a massive advantage. Even if I completely outmacro my opponent, the only way I can win is if I almost lose? Smart terrans will always try to force a basetrade because if I lose my corruptors/mutalisks then I lose. I have basetraded every game that has come to this point. I don't want to get into an extremely high-risk situation if I have a commanding lead. This is really not what I wanted to hear. Is this really the way I'm supposed to play Zerg? Wanna post some of these replays? I don't know how you can have 2-3 more bases than your opponent and still have a basetrade situation be an "almost lose" situation. Maybe you just need to practice the proper way to play during those kinds of situations. He wants to know what the proper way to play during that kind of situation. Maybe he should practice it without knowing what the proper way is. If your opponent is turtling hard and you dont feel like attacking him just camp outside his base in a nice concave while getting all your upgrades, get some static defense at each base to negate harass. When he moves out trade armies with him, if he wins he will still have to move across the whole map to start dealing dmg to you, buying you precious time to remax on ultras or whatever you decide. No, he wants to know a different solution because he thinks that isn't the best way to play it. And that advice is the exact opposite of what you should do. Terran armies are almost always stronger than zerg armies when they are both maxed, unless you are already at ultra or broodlord tech. The real answer is to tech faster if you think T is just going to bunker down and wait until max, so that you have room for ultras in your supply cap. Maybe you should reread his original post. He wants a solution that isnt your coinflip base trade idea. Why do you think base trades are a coinflip? Nice ninja edit. Terrans can lift. If you base trade a terran you are betting on your army eventually destroying his. You both destroy each others base. He lifts, you lose everything. You hustle back to save your last 2 mining expansions and rebuilding tech structures. You fight and whoever wins the battle takes the game. Maybe I wasn't being clear. I'm not advocating starting a full on elimination race every time you are in this situation. I just think it leaves you in a better position if you counter and kill T's 1 mining base before you start looking to fight his army. Personally I just hate the position you are put it if you just trade armies right when T decides to move out. Every time I try that Terran will just clean up 1 or 2 of my mining bases, then pull back and expand before I can remax.
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On October 11 2010 17:16 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 16:54 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:44 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 16:39 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:32 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 16:28 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:17 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 01:09 DoubleReed wrote:If you have them out-based, but his maxed army is stronger than you, start dropping him or countering him when he moves out. If he decides to continue on with his attack you are going to do huge damage to his economy or production(depending on where you attack), and it's depending on how much you expanded, he's going to take a hell of a lot longer to clean up your tech/bases than you. The only problem is: this is what I'm doing. You are encouraging me to basetrade and go into an 'almost lose' situation even though I should have a massive advantage. Even if I completely outmacro my opponent, the only way I can win is if I almost lose? Smart terrans will always try to force a basetrade because if I lose my corruptors/mutalisks then I lose. I have basetraded every game that has come to this point. I don't want to get into an extremely high-risk situation if I have a commanding lead. This is really not what I wanted to hear. Is this really the way I'm supposed to play Zerg? Wanna post some of these replays? I don't know how you can have 2-3 more bases than your opponent and still have a basetrade situation be an "almost lose" situation. Maybe you just need to practice the proper way to play during those kinds of situations. He wants to know what the proper way to play during that kind of situation. Maybe he should practice it without knowing what the proper way is. If your opponent is turtling hard and you dont feel like attacking him just camp outside his base in a nice concave while getting all your upgrades, get some static defense at each base to negate harass. When he moves out trade armies with him, if he wins he will still have to move across the whole map to start dealing dmg to you, buying you precious time to remax on ultras or whatever you decide. No, he wants to know a different solution because he thinks that isn't the best way to play it. And that advice is the exact opposite of what you should do. Terran armies are almost always stronger than zerg armies when they are both maxed, unless you are already at ultra or broodlord tech. The real answer is to tech faster if you think T is just going to bunker down and wait until max, so that you have room for ultras in your supply cap. Maybe you should reread his original post. He wants a solution that isnt your coinflip base trade idea. Why do you think base trades are a coinflip? Nice ninja edit. Terrans can lift. If you base trade a terran you are betting on your army eventually destroying his. You both destroy each others base. He lifts, you lose everything. You hustle back to save your last 2 mining expansions and rebuilding tech structures. You fight and whoever wins the battle takes the game. Maybe I wasn't being clear. I'm not advocating starting a full on elimination race every time you are in this situation. I just think it leaves you in a better position if you counter and kill T's 1 mining base before you start looking to fight his army. Personally I just hate the position you are put it if you just trade armies right when T decides to move out. Every time I try that Terran will just clean up 1 or 2 of my mining bases, then pull back and expand before I can remax.
I think we are both operating under the assumption that the terran army crushes the zerg army. I agree that countering is an option that breaks even, since the battle will likely occur on your home turf. If you catch him on the creep, even better. However you give the terran a winning move, if he crushes you near your main, he can split his remaining forces to take out your tech and 3rd, and rally reinforcements to any other mining expansions. I would still advise attacking him right as he moves out, and babysitting infestors during the battle so you can fungal to buy time for remax.
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what do you do against turtle terran mech who ends up pushing with 150ish supply off of 2 bases (blue flame hellion/thor mainly)
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On October 11 2010 16:38 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 16:28 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:17 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 01:09 DoubleReed wrote:If you have them out-based, but his maxed army is stronger than you, start dropping him or countering him when he moves out. If he decides to continue on with his attack you are going to do huge damage to his economy or production(depending on where you attack), and it's depending on how much you expanded, he's going to take a hell of a lot longer to clean up your tech/bases than you. The only problem is: this is what I'm doing. You are encouraging me to basetrade and go into an 'almost lose' situation even though I should have a massive advantage. Even if I completely outmacro my opponent, the only way I can win is if I almost lose? Smart terrans will always try to force a basetrade because if I lose my corruptors/mutalisks then I lose. I have basetraded every game that has come to this point. I don't want to get into an extremely high-risk situation if I have a commanding lead. This is really not what I wanted to hear. Is this really the way I'm supposed to play Zerg? Wanna post some of these replays? I don't know how you can have 2-3 more bases than your opponent and still have a basetrade situation be an "almost lose" situation. Maybe you just need to practice the proper way to play during those kinds of situations. He wants to know what the proper way to play during that kind of situation. Maybe he should practice it without knowing what the proper way is. If your opponent is turtling hard and you dont feel like attacking him just camp outside his base in a nice concave while getting all your upgrades, get some static defense at each base to negate harass. When he moves out trade armies with him, if he wins he will still have to move across the whole map to start dealing dmg to you, buying you precious time to remax on ultras or whatever you decide. Please don't take this advice. If you're playing against a Terran who's going to turtle on 2 base until he can make a death push, you just have to make sure that you have your hive tech in play in time to combat it, while still managing to stay a base up. Admittedly it can be a real dick to deal with, especially against an opponent who is able to harass effectively while he macros. Sixghost is right: Ultras aren't as good against mech as they were before their cleave was nerfed, but you're still going to have to get some out if you plan on holding that first push. Broods are great if you can get to them, but they're so slow in getting out, and in moving around. Really there is no easy answer. You have to stay on top of your macro while defending your expos and staying at least one base up. =\ Edit: And I know you don't want to base race vs a Terran, but you really should utilize drop if and when you can. 8 roaches on his depots can really change the outcome of a game if you time it with his first push, and hinder his ability to resupply his army.
Another very important thing against 2base turtle is to not make too many drones. You should barely have enough to keep 3 bases saturated, if that. I suggest you to just kill some of your drones after you get maxed in most situations. You can easily remake them anyway. Even if you're 5 bases vs 2, if the Terran only has a total of 45 workers and you have 90, he'll roll you over. You need to match his all-in army, after you take care of it you can re-drone just fine.
On October 11 2010 17:16 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 16:54 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:44 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 16:39 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:32 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 16:28 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:17 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 01:09 DoubleReed wrote:If you have them out-based, but his maxed army is stronger than you, start dropping him or countering him when he moves out. If he decides to continue on with his attack you are going to do huge damage to his economy or production(depending on where you attack), and it's depending on how much you expanded, he's going to take a hell of a lot longer to clean up your tech/bases than you. The only problem is: this is what I'm doing. You are encouraging me to basetrade and go into an 'almost lose' situation even though I should have a massive advantage. Even if I completely outmacro my opponent, the only way I can win is if I almost lose? Smart terrans will always try to force a basetrade because if I lose my corruptors/mutalisks then I lose. I have basetraded every game that has come to this point. I don't want to get into an extremely high-risk situation if I have a commanding lead. This is really not what I wanted to hear. Is this really the way I'm supposed to play Zerg? Wanna post some of these replays? I don't know how you can have 2-3 more bases than your opponent and still have a basetrade situation be an "almost lose" situation. Maybe you just need to practice the proper way to play during those kinds of situations. He wants to know what the proper way to play during that kind of situation. Maybe he should practice it without knowing what the proper way is. If your opponent is turtling hard and you dont feel like attacking him just camp outside his base in a nice concave while getting all your upgrades, get some static defense at each base to negate harass. When he moves out trade armies with him, if he wins he will still have to move across the whole map to start dealing dmg to you, buying you precious time to remax on ultras or whatever you decide. No, he wants to know a different solution because he thinks that isn't the best way to play it. And that advice is the exact opposite of what you should do. Terran armies are almost always stronger than zerg armies when they are both maxed, unless you are already at ultra or broodlord tech. The real answer is to tech faster if you think T is just going to bunker down and wait until max, so that you have room for ultras in your supply cap. Maybe you should reread his original post. He wants a solution that isnt your coinflip base trade idea. Why do you think base trades are a coinflip? Nice ninja edit. Terrans can lift. If you base trade a terran you are betting on your army eventually destroying his. You both destroy each others base. He lifts, you lose everything. You hustle back to save your last 2 mining expansions and rebuilding tech structures. You fight and whoever wins the battle takes the game. Maybe I wasn't being clear. I'm not advocating starting a full on elimination race every time you are in this situation. I just think it leaves you in a better position if you counter and kill T's 1 mining base before you start looking to fight his army. Personally I just hate the position you are put it if you just trade armies right when T decides to move out. Every time I try that Terran will just clean up 1 or 2 of my mining bases, then pull back and expand before I can remax.
You drop -> T lifts -> T kills your main and all your tech -> all your other mining bases are useless -> Terran stabilizes and re-lands while killing all those useless bases off
Don't base trade vs Terran.
On October 11 2010 17:35 gilescorey wrote:
what do you do against turtle terran mech who ends up pushing with 150ish supply off of 2 bases (blue flame hellion/thor mainly)
Out-expand while preventing him from taking his third base and mass Roach into Broodlord
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On October 11 2010 17:34 Xog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 17:16 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 16:54 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:44 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 16:39 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:32 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 16:28 Xog wrote:On October 11 2010 16:17 sixghost wrote:On October 11 2010 01:09 DoubleReed wrote:If you have them out-based, but his maxed army is stronger than you, start dropping him or countering him when he moves out. If he decides to continue on with his attack you are going to do huge damage to his economy or production(depending on where you attack), and it's depending on how much you expanded, he's going to take a hell of a lot longer to clean up your tech/bases than you. The only problem is: this is what I'm doing. You are encouraging me to basetrade and go into an 'almost lose' situation even though I should have a massive advantage. Even if I completely outmacro my opponent, the only way I can win is if I almost lose? Smart terrans will always try to force a basetrade because if I lose my corruptors/mutalisks then I lose. I have basetraded every game that has come to this point. I don't want to get into an extremely high-risk situation if I have a commanding lead. This is really not what I wanted to hear. Is this really the way I'm supposed to play Zerg? Wanna post some of these replays? I don't know how you can have 2-3 more bases than your opponent and still have a basetrade situation be an "almost lose" situation. Maybe you just need to practice the proper way to play during those kinds of situations. He wants to know what the proper way to play during that kind of situation. Maybe he should practice it without knowing what the proper way is. If your opponent is turtling hard and you dont feel like attacking him just camp outside his base in a nice concave while getting all your upgrades, get some static defense at each base to negate harass. When he moves out trade armies with him, if he wins he will still have to move across the whole map to start dealing dmg to you, buying you precious time to remax on ultras or whatever you decide. No, he wants to know a different solution because he thinks that isn't the best way to play it. And that advice is the exact opposite of what you should do. Terran armies are almost always stronger than zerg armies when they are both maxed, unless you are already at ultra or broodlord tech. The real answer is to tech faster if you think T is just going to bunker down and wait until max, so that you have room for ultras in your supply cap. Maybe you should reread his original post. He wants a solution that isnt your coinflip base trade idea. Why do you think base trades are a coinflip? Nice ninja edit. Terrans can lift. If you base trade a terran you are betting on your army eventually destroying his. You both destroy each others base. He lifts, you lose everything. You hustle back to save your last 2 mining expansions and rebuilding tech structures. You fight and whoever wins the battle takes the game. Maybe I wasn't being clear. I'm not advocating starting a full on elimination race every time you are in this situation. I just think it leaves you in a better position if you counter and kill T's 1 mining base before you start looking to fight his army. Personally I just hate the position you are put it if you just trade armies right when T decides to move out. Every time I try that Terran will just clean up 1 or 2 of my mining bases, then pull back and expand before I can remax. I think we are both operating under the assumption that the terran army crushes the zerg army. I agree that countering is an option that breaks even, since the battle will likely occur on your home turf. If you catch him on the creep, even better. However you give the terran a winning move, if he crushes you near your main, he can split his remaining forces to take out your tech and 3rd, and rally reinforcements to any other mining expansions. I would still advise attacking him right as he moves out, and babysitting infestors during the battle so you can fungal to buy time for remax.
This I agree with. I jumped on your first post because I read it as "camp outside his base and build static D everywhere else".
We don't want to fight at the bottom of his ramp. Ideally we fight in or around the middle of the map, on creep. Realistically, the creep won't always be there, but we should still try and initiate somewhere near the middle where we can get surrounds and abuse our mobility.
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On October 11 2010 17:41 Shikyo wrote:You drop -> T lifts -> T kills your main and all your tech -> all your other mining bases are useless -> Terran stabilizes and re-lands while killing all those useless bases off Don't base trade vs Terran. Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 17:35 gilescorey wrote:
what do you do against turtle terran mech who ends up pushing with 150ish supply off of 2 bases (blue flame hellion/thor mainly) Out-expand while preventing him from taking his third base and mass Roach into Broodlord
You don't need to drop with your entire army. Also, just remake the 2-3 tech buildings you need?
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I have a problem with larva injections - tried this weekend to put all queens in a group and mass inject while cycling through hatches using backspace.
When a queen has not enough energy for it's hatch, another will crawl across the map to inject instead. This often results in a cascade, as another hatch has now no queen (it is still close, but bound to inject a hatch on the other side of the map) etc.
Of course I only notice this later.
The whole thing is so unstable, that it severely messed up my larva management, and I switched back to hotkeying all my bases as before (5 all hatches, 6 main, 7 nat, 8 3rd, 9 4th, 0 5th), double tapping base, selecting queen with mouse injecting etc.
Not fast, but I make no errors.
Any advice?
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On October 12 2010 00:16 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 17:41 Shikyo wrote:You drop -> T lifts -> T kills your main and all your tech -> all your other mining bases are useless -> Terran stabilizes and re-lands while killing all those useless bases off Don't base trade vs Terran. On October 11 2010 17:35 gilescorey wrote:
what do you do against turtle terran mech who ends up pushing with 150ish supply off of 2 bases (blue flame hellion/thor mainly) Out-expand while preventing him from taking his third base and mass Roach into Broodlord You don't need to drop with your entire army. Also, just remake the 2-3 tech buildings you need?
I never was talking about the whole army being dropped, thanks though.
They do take time to build and usually your main area has quite a few of your overlords. It can work if you hide them and build the buildings before he destroys your lair / pool but it's not that simple and your main usually has most of your production as well. Also vs that kind of a Terran army you really need your entire force to do anything. Vs Terran it's either a close victory or a crushing defeat because of the way their units work.
On October 12 2010 00:20 Metaspace wrote:
I have a problem with larva injections - tried this weekend to put all queens in a group and mass inject while cycling through hatches using backspace.
When a queen has not enough energy for it's hatch, another will crawl across the map to inject instead. This often results in a cascade, as another hatch has now no queen (it is still close, but bound to inject a hatch on the other side of the map) etc.
Of course I only notice this later.
The whole thing is so unstable, that it severely messed up my larva management, and I switched back to hotkeying all my bases as before (5 all hatches, 6 main, 7 nat, 8 3rd, 9 4th, 0 5th), double tapping base, selecting queen with mouse injecting etc.
Not fast, but I make no errors.
Any advice?
I inject with the minimap without problems. The other Queen won't come if you inject its own hatchery right after.
I really don't have these problems almost ever.
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On October 12 2010 00:20 Metaspace wrote:
The whole thing is so unstable, that it severely messed up my larva management, and I switched back to hotkeying all my bases as before (5 all hatches, 6 main, 7 nat, 8 3rd, 9 4th, 0 5th), double tapping base, selecting queen with mouse injecting etc.
Not fast, but I make no errors.
Any advice?
Yes, keep all your hatches on 5 but hotkey your queens instead of your hatches on 6/7/8/9. Injecting will be slightly faster (one click less), in stressful situations you can micro your queens with hotkeys AND you will still be able to jump to your hatches by pressing 66/77/88/99 since it's where your queens chill.
Btw that's the way Idra does it (starting with all hatches on 4 afair).
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On October 11 2010 17:35 gilescorey wrote:
what do you do against turtle terran mech who ends up pushing with 150ish supply off of 2 bases (blue flame hellion/thor mainly)
Been meeting this a lot in the last couple of days :-(
Any advice?
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On October 12 2010 03:31 Recidivist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 17:35 gilescorey wrote:
what do you do against turtle terran mech who ends up pushing with 150ish supply off of 2 bases (blue flame hellion/thor mainly) Been meeting this a lot in the last couple of days :-( Any advice?
a nice trick when fighting a thor based army is to get about 5-15 mutalisks beside your roach/ultra/ling what ever ground army and spread them nicely when moving in. this will trigger the thors to go for the mutas and not your ground which cripples the Ts damage output dramaticly if he doesnt micro well. other than that i would say i got the same problem D:
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I think I read much of this and I think I didn't find what I need.
So my question is: is it always best to go for corruptors when you play macro toss who is going for collossus?
Getting fast Ultras is too risky, cause he can attack right before you get them.
Playing with roach/hydra is viable if you get really good position. But if he has good position and uses good FFs then it seems like no way I can win just with raoches/hydras.
Burrowed roaches really nice, but if toss is smart and uses observers it fails.
I personally hate going corruptors, but what do you think, are corruptors the best choice?
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EPT
