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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
One of my biggest problems is getting supply capped.
Is there a certain amount of food left before capped that I should make another overlord? I always feel like the minerals(early game at least) should be spent on drones/queen/lings, etc.
Also, whenever I'm teching up to mutalisks with several bases, I end up with a massive surplus of minerals as opposed to gas. I try to pump out speedlings as well, but never seem to have enough larvae available, even when I'm on top of my queens spawning larvae. Should I be just making extra hatcheries in my bases with extra queens? Or am I focusing too much on economy/saturating expansions?
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I love the idea behind this thread. The hijackers of this thread, however; I despise. Please allow Saracen and company to respond to the questions.
That being said, I am having trouble in ZvT with marine/hellion openers that transition into 2 port banshee. I have contemplated using spine crawlers at the front to negate the marine/hellion pressure, and spores/queen to combat the banshees, but I know a experienced player will quickly add two (or 1) medivac and lift his marine/hellion into my main. What is the most efficient way to deal with this?
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On September 27 2010 13:48 Cwall wrote:
One of my biggest problems is getting supply capped.
Is there a certain amount of food left before capped that I should make another overlord? I always feel like the minerals(early game at least) should be spent on drones/queen/lings, etc.
Also, whenever I'm teching up to mutalisks with several bases, I end up with a massive surplus of minerals as opposed to gas. I try to pump out speedlings as well, but never seem to have enough larvae available, even when I'm on top of my queens spawning larvae. Should I be just making extra hatcheries in my bases with extra queens? Or am I focusing too much on economy/saturating expansions?
I believe I can answer your questions.
A good way to judge how much food surplus you should be at is to simply check your larvae output. I.E. 1 hatch no queen you need an overlord 2-3 food before cap. Two hatch two queen you would want to be around 16 food before cap.
Important! When you are teching up to mutalisks, and even after you have started massing them, spine crawlers are a very efficient way to combat a large mineral surplus. If you have effective mutalisk harass, most of the time your opponent will choose throw his whole army at you in an attempt come back from heavy worker losses. It is also crucial for surviving the tech/transition to a mutalisk heavy comp. One game that comes to mind is Dimaga vs. Huk on Lost Temple where Dimaga had around 50 spine crawlers to give him peace of mind about any counter attacks. In addition, It is a good idea to get either a spore crawler or overseer with your spine crawlers because DT's are a natural transition after blink stalkers.
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On September 27 2010 14:09 Xog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2010 13:48 Cwall wrote:
One of my biggest problems is getting supply capped.
Is there a certain amount of food left before capped that I should make another overlord? I always feel like the minerals(early game at least) should be spent on drones/queen/lings, etc.
Also, whenever I'm teching up to mutalisks with several bases, I end up with a massive surplus of minerals as opposed to gas. I try to pump out speedlings as well, but never seem to have enough larvae available, even when I'm on top of my queens spawning larvae. Should I be just making extra hatcheries in my bases with extra queens? Or am I focusing too much on economy/saturating expansions? I believe I can answer your questions. A good way to judge how much food surplus you should be at is to simply check your larvae output. I.E. 1 hatch no queen you need an overlord 2-3 food before cap. Two hatch two queen you would want to be around 16 food before cap. Important! When you are teching up to mutalisks, and even after you have started massing them, spine crawlers are a very efficient way to combat a large mineral surplus. If you have effective mutalisk harass, most of the time your opponent will choose throw his whole army at you in an attempt come back from heavy worker losses. It is also crucial for surviving the tech/transition to a mutalisk heavy comp. One game that comes to mind is Dimaga vs. Huk on Lost Temple where Dimaga had around 50 spine crawlers to give him peace of mind about any counter attacks. In addition, It is a good idea to get either a spore crawler or overseer with your spine crawlers because DT's are a natural transition after blink stalkers.
The spine crawler thing sounds pretty good. In fact, I can't believe I didn't even consider them.
Maybe I'm just not used to as much early aggression. Who knows.
Anyway, thank you. This will probably help my ZvP matchup as well, considering massive stalker pushes seem to wreck me.
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Just wanted to chime in with a big lol at that red edit to the first post.
You have to realise that a 300 apm pro's thoughts are no more relevant to someone who comes here for advise than a 1300 diamond's. infact it is probably less so since they can obviously survive with less units on the field and pull off riskier shit.
I realise this is a pro gamer site, but the target audience for a thread like this is way, way below that Myself inculded. I ahve no problem listening to what a 1300 diamond player has to say about how to play, and neither should you, unless you are snob.
You don't have to be a pro gamer to help your fellow zerg. Stop being a Nazi about it.,
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On September 27 2010 13:48 Cwall wrote:
One of my biggest problems is getting supply capped.
Is there a certain amount of food left before capped that I should make another overlord? I always feel like the minerals(early game at least) should be spent on drones/queen/lings, etc.
Also, whenever I'm teching up to mutalisks with several bases, I end up with a massive surplus of minerals as opposed to gas. I try to pump out speedlings as well, but never seem to have enough larvae available, even when I'm on top of my queens spawning larvae. Should I be just making extra hatcheries in my bases with extra queens? Or am I focusing too much on economy/saturating expansions?
Early on you should really know the exact time you need to make each ovie, like up until 35ish supply. After that, just stay on the side of caution, don't try to cut it too close just so you can squeeze out an extra roach before an ovie. The easiest way I've found to manage this in the later game is to just make 2 overlords for every spawn larvae cycle.
As for the muta thing, there's no way we could give you a good answer without providing a replay. I guess maybe take your 2nd/3rd/4th gas earlier. And if you still have too many minerals after that, just make more drones/lings/hatcheries/queens, whatever the situation calls for. I wouldn't really recommend spending it on spine crawler unless you have a very specific reason for doing so.
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On September 27 2010 14:43 Vorgrim wrote:
Just wanted to chime in with a big lol at that red edit to the first post.
You have to realise that a 300 apm pro's thoughts are no more relevant to someone who comes here for advise than a 1300 diamond's. infact it is probably less so since they can obviously survive with less units on the field and pull off riskier shit.
I realise this is a pro gamer site, but the target audience for a thread like this is way, way below that Myself inculded. I ahve no problem listening to what a 1300 diamond player has to say about how to play, and neither should you, unless you are snob.
You don't have to be a pro gamer to help your fellow zerg. Stop being a Nazi about it.,
Also there's the fact that none of the "top" players will respond consistently to posts here. It was cool that zelniq and darkforce posted earlier on, but they haven't done so since.
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On September 27 2010 14:43 Vorgrim wrote:
Just wanted to chime in with a big lol at that red edit to the first post.
You have to realise that a 300 apm pro's thoughts are no more relevant to someone who comes here for advise than a 1300 diamond's. infact it is probably less so since they can obviously survive with less units on the field and pull off riskier shit.
I realise this is a pro gamer site, but the target audience for a thread like this is way, way below that Myself inculded. I ahve no problem listening to what a 1300 diamond player has to say about how to play, and neither should you, unless you are snob.
You don't have to be a pro gamer to help your fellow zerg. Stop being a Nazi about it.,
Then make your own topic and get your own advices, as far as im concerned if Saracen takes his time for answering question he can put whatever requisite he seems fit. Lots of people giving shitty advices or asking shitty question/already answered ones get the thread derailed and so people like Darkforce or the others simply stop posting.
Meh, seems like they already got tired of that tough. So much for one of the few good threads on the sc2 strategy.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 27 2010 14:43 Vorgrim wrote:
Just wanted to chime in with a big lol at that red edit to the first post.
You have to realise that a 300 apm pro's thoughts are no more relevant to someone who comes here for advise than a 1300 diamond's. infact it is probably less so since they can obviously survive with less units on the field and pull off riskier shit.
I realise this is a pro gamer site, but the target audience for a thread like this is way, way below that Myself inculded. I ahve no problem listening to what a 1300 diamond player has to say about how to play, and neither should you, unless you are snob.
You don't have to be a pro gamer to help your fellow zerg. Stop being a Nazi about it.,
Learn to read:
On September 21 2010 10:51 Saracen wrote:
In the end, it's not about points. It's about knowledge and experience. If you have good advice, I'm not trying to discourage you from posting.
He's not saying that the advice of 1300 diamonds are stupid. He's saying points don't matter as long as you give good advice (which comes from experience and knowledge, not points). This is his thread, and he has every right to be upset that some random posters have been spouting advice that is less than acceptable (if not outright wrong). Of course there have been some good contributions and Saracen is obviously happy with those posting good advice.
Anyway I am just enjoying reading this thread. Be grateful for what you have TL; stop trolling people who want to help you get better.
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On September 27 2010 13:48 Cwall wrote:
One of my biggest problems is getting supply capped.
Is there a certain amount of food left before capped that I should make another overlord? I always feel like the minerals(early game at least) should be spent on drones/queen/lings, etc.
Also, whenever I'm teching up to mutalisks with several bases, I end up with a massive surplus of minerals as opposed to gas. I try to pump out speedlings as well, but never seem to have enough larvae available, even when I'm on top of my queens spawning larvae. Should I be just making extra hatcheries in my bases with extra queens? Or am I focusing too much on economy/saturating expansions?
Sixghost is right. Your first several ovies need to be at pretty specific times. After that, you just have to base it on what units you're making.
I go 9 ovie, 15 ovie, 23 ovie, and then start changing it up based on what tech path I'm going. If you're making a roach play, for example, you'll obviously need a couple more overlords than if you're just focusing on lings to keep you safe in the early game.
As for muta plays and excess minerals, I really think you just need to macro better, and maybe take your gasses earlier. You should be able to keep your gas an minerals pretty even by dedicating all your gas to mutas, and the excess minerals to lings.
If you still have minerals piling up, you can add hatcheries and/or spines (I really like getting 1 more hatch than I have expos) but, if I were you, I'd really try and clean up my macro.
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How do you deal with Storm? It just feels so powerful when you're on the receiving end, 4 Templar just decimates a mid to late game Zerg force.
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Few general questions about TvZ; would love to get some tips at the situations I hate the most:
1) how to cope with helion(sometimes preigniter) drops/runbys? Although not as brutal as against toss/terran due to zerg drone spawning mechanics, it is still very easy for the terran to get even/to advantage by doing this even when defended relatively successfully with virtually no investition to tech on T side (he can use all the buildings later and dropship is also not useless later). Especially later game multiple drops/runbys at the same time are brutal...
2) how do you cope with thor pushes? Killing single thor with marine or helion support and 10 scvs requires clearing the marines or dpsing through their repair; this in turn requires banes (for clearing scvs) or huge number of units which in turn leave your economy weaker in the case when he just waits and pushes with 3-4 of them later
3) what to do against T on LT? Thor/mmm drop on the natural ledge is afaik uncounterable without heavy investing into sunkens below ledge/drop which leave you vulnerable to normal play; expanding far away is also very risky against multiple drops and alike
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On September 25 2010 15:38 AnAngryDingo wrote:
lets discuss terran's newest FOTM opening against zerg which is the hellion ---> banshee opening into an expansion and into a thor/hellion/marine timing attack
the first few times i faced it, i was caught totally offguard. since i've taken to at grabbing my 3rd and usually a 4th queen to defend, but this can slow down lair. also, if he catches you with just 2 queens one at each base, a banshee beats a queen and then you are infinitely behind if he just keeps making banshees.
there seems to be a few different variations on this, one of which uses a double starport and it comes out before you have mutas
getting ready to go to bed soon, but tomorrow i'll go through and post some replays (1100 d level)
I don't think there's any "solution" against this build because it's not an allin. Just be sure to be diligent in scouting his base with overlords. 99% of the time if he opens reactor hellion to banshee, you can get an overlord in his main to see a starport with a tech lab. The response of course is to defend the hellion harass like you normally would while droning up, then build enough queens to defend until your spire is up (spread creep throughout your base and spread your overlords to keep track of the banshees, and be sure to focus fire and transfuse).
On September 25 2010 17:33 Eazypeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 12:21 Saracen wrote:On September 21 2010 11:56 raybasto wrote:
Against Toss, what is the best way to fend off 4 gate pressure and survive till the late game. It seems like if I open Hydras/Ling/Spines, they fast expand and switch to 2 gate Robo in which I am unable to defend long enough to get Ultra/Ling (Whether its because of lack of harass or over commiting to Hydra/Roach). If I open Muta/Ling, they keep the 4 gate pressure until my defenses finally break. This is what I do against 4gate: 14 pool 15 hatch 15 queen/overlord - when that queen finishes, build another queen, take your gas, and spit larva at the main then movie it to your nat (you might want to take your gas slightly earlier) - drone to 32 supply, then MASS lings - build nothing but lings/overlords - take a drone off of gas whenever you have the 100 gas for speed - I have been able to beat 4gate with exclusively lings, but you might want to add roaches or banelings if you're feeling uncomfortable, like maybe he's going heavy zeal/sentry or something - try to engage him as soon as speed finishes because you don't want his gateway ball to grow too large, and you don't want him to have too many force fields Hello Saracen, Iv'e been using a similar build all along to defend 4 gates. slings + spines and maybe some roaches seems to be working just fine for me. My question is this. Im on Blistering sands, I have used the above build so im sitting on 2 bases and ive got a decent # of drones + 2 spines at my natural. The protoss player shows up at my front door and pokes in and out but dosent really engage me, instead he is forcing me to make more lings. So basically this protoss delayed his 4gate untill he got a few collosus out and crushed me. I was caught off gaurd because I didnt scout very well. The only scouting information was with my 1st sacraficial overloard around 30 supply seeeing 4gates + 1 robo and when he was poking in and out with his gateway force I managed to get a few lings to his natural and see that he had a Nexus warping in. I guess I assumed that sense he was expanding I was safe to drone up further but clearly I was wrong. Given the information I had, or say you knew "ok this guy is delaying his 4gate push until he gets a few collosus and hes expanding. What would you have done differently? EDIT: also I need to work on my multitasking, I had a spire up with some mutas but I kindof blindly teched to them and wasnt sure if it was the right choice. I think if i was smoother with my timings I coulve easily had more mutas out and maybe stopped the attack.However, im not even sure if they were the right choice. Thanks so much for your help 
It sounds like a problem of knowing when to drone and when to make an army and knowing exactly how much your opponent has. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the Protoss went 4gate + robo into expand into colossi? If you constantly pump drones to around 32 supply, and then constantly pump lings afterwards, you should be able to actually engage the 4gating army if it doesn't have +1, especially if he tries to take an expansion.
Maybe you missed some larvae injects, or maybe you got supply blocked a few times, or maybe he picked off too many lings with good force fields. Watch the replay, as all of these can lead to losses. It sounds more like a problem with your own play than responding to your opponent's build.
On September 25 2010 19:39 Bleak wrote:
Hello Saracen, I played some practice games with my Diamond Toss friend, and he 4-gate pushed me every game. I tried spine crawlers, and lings, roaches but force fields prevent a surround he takes out the spine crawlers with not much losses. He also force fields my ramp, which prevents me to bring reinforcements.
Here is my replay:
[url blocked]
Thanks alot for your answer.
This has been discussed many times already in the thread...
On September 25 2010 21:21 ToastieNL wrote:
I got a few questions for you.
Once you feel like you're behind, you should start to harass and damage the opponents mineral line. If you are behind however, researching 300/300+ loads of time or Burrow seems like an uncertain investment, and it takes to long to get you back in the game in time.
Q1: What do you feel like is effective harassment and how do you execute it?
Q2: How can we incorporate Burrow in our play and abuse it very effectively?
We all know Mutalisks are our 'Containing' units. Next to the Mutalisks, Speed Roaches and Speedlings can help the contain by threatening a counter-attack. I, however, feel very uncertain about how to use my Mutalisks.
Q3: Where should I strike with my Mutalisks, how can I find out if some place is safe or not, how much should I invest in Mutalisks and how quick do I need to transition out of them?
Q4: Where do I place my Spinecrawlers for maximum effectiveness? At the ramp with my speedlings to assault once they get in range, or in my Mineral Line to weaken drops/harass?
Q5: You're not in control of the air, what are the first things I should do? (Extra Queens/Evo+Spore/Hydra/More Muta) and how do I execute these effectively?
Thank you for having a thread like this.
Kind regards,
Toastie
1. I don't really think Zerg has anything in the "effective harassment" department, at least not when you're behind. I've had a lot of success (and fun) with burrowed roaches, burrowed infestors, and baneling drops, but only when I've been ahead. In particular, burrowed roaches are more of a stalling tactic than an actual damaging one (like, maybe you want to tech to hive so you stall with roaches as you tech up). If you're behind, it's probably best to either allin on the spot or try to mass drone to catch up and pray he doesn't attack (harassing with mutalisks can help). Basically, we as Zerg play catch-up not by making the opponent weaker, but by making ourselves stronger.
2. Just having 2 burrowed banelings around in attack paths is really effective against Terran if you're harassing with mutalisks and want to drone up at the same time (meaning no army). I rarely use burrowed roach play, but I hear it can be very effective against Protoss.
3. "Strike" where he doesn't have defense. You can find out if some place is safe or not by watching your mutalisks. How much you invest in mutalisks depends on what your own game plan. It's also based on what your opponent is doing (is he going 2 fac thors? transition out of mutas ASAP)
4. Place them where the bad guys are gonna be.
5. Depends on what he has. Mass phoenix? Mass hydra. Mass banshee/viking? You're kind of fucked if you didn't scout this early and have no anti-air. Mass mutalisk? hydra/infestor.
On September 25 2010 21:53 keioh wrote:
Hello fellow zergs !
I recently watched the funday monday from Day9, which was about try to play with no queen ever.
While I feel you have to get a queen for the later stages of the game, I'm pretty sure 99% of the zergs (as well as myself) get the queen asap. Against T, it's kind of mandatory, because of all the openings that the T can throw. I feel like it could be delayed on some map and if you scout some builds sufficiently early.
Against P, the daily showed that you could have mutalisks so much sooner that usual... The game were not of high level, but it was very interesting to see what was going on for the zerg when his queen is delayed. It seemed better against P, but unfortunately they were no 4 gate aggresion so I couldn't figure the timing.
I have tested it a bit. The delayed queen means a really sooner tech. I could even forget about speedlings when I scouted turtling players, and get mutas very early in the game. On some map, the extra minerals you save for the queen can be used for a 3rd hatch... But at my level (gold), it's hard to say if it is very useful to delay the queen, or if it's just a gimmicky thing that have no real utility.
Since we have some of the best zergs in this topic, I thought I could ask you this question : did you ever try to delay the queen ? What was your feeling about the game with this ?
Nope, but Zelniq has and he says it's not bad sometimes. His feelings might have changed since then, though. It feels very allin-ish to me, and I personally don't like it.
On September 25 2010 23:53 Sybris wrote:
What are you guys thoughts on how to handle your supply late-game? in ZvP mainly
I play a lot of drawn-out macro games where I've gone for a standard hydra/roach/corruptor mix and Protoss has gone for a normal gateway unit+colossi composition and is powering off 2/3 bases, but when I reach Hive I can't use it because I'm already maxed with 200/200 of hydra/roach/lings and corruptors so he's usually able to kill my army off and despite even having a economy/upgrade decent advantage I'm just streaming units from my hatches which get raped by his blob
I've thought about stopping at 160-170 supply so I have room for broodlords/ultras but it's pretty worrying when Protoss is threatening to attack and you're waiting on your Hive tech to come out while not making units. I've had decent success with nydus harass to buy time (which alsos frees supply for hive units) vs this kind of play but I'm sure vs aware players they won't really be hindered by this at all
Try teching to hive even faster. Use your lings for something besides fighting (namely backstabs).
On September 25 2010 23:58 Rahlekk wrote:
When making Banelings, can you just hold E to transform them all en-mass, instead of tapping E a bunch of times?
Dunno, probably.
On September 26 2010 00:15 Euriti wrote:
I have 2 major issues right now
1) ZvZ 6 pools - I get 6 pooled in about 60% of my ZvZs (diamond level) with a spine crawler or 2 put in my base and i just cant do anything against it. I scout it, throw down a 12/13 pool but the amount of lings + crawlers he gets is overwhelming
2) ZvT Thor/Blue Flame Hellion Rushes - I end up having 6 hellions and 4-5 thors with scvs following hitting me around 11-12 minutes. Lings are useless and I cant get a critical mass of roaches in time, even with spine crawlers out.
1. Defend with your drones. It should be 15 drones versus 6 lings, with 6 lings of your own on the way. Just make sure the spine crawler doesn't go up. More on that here: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=151547#12
2. Don't get crawlers. Use banelings against the SCVs. If you have lings, only send them in once the hellions are dead. They're very useful against thors if you can get the thors alone. There's really nothing you can do except have more shit, so this is probably more of a macro problem on your part.
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On September 27 2010 23:26 natris wrote:
Few general questions about TvZ; would love to get some tips at the situations I hate the most:
1) how to cope with helion(sometimes preigniter) drops/runbys? Although not as brutal as against toss/terran due to zerg drone spawning mechanics, it is still very easy for the terran to get even/to advantage by doing this even when defended relatively successfully with virtually no investition to tech on T side (he can use all the buildings later and dropship is also not useless later). Especially later game multiple drops/runbys at the same time are brutal...
2) how do you cope with thor pushes? Killing single thor with marine or helion support and 10 scvs requires clearing the marines or dpsing through their repair; this in turn requires banes (for clearing scvs) or huge number of units which in turn leave your economy weaker in the case when he just waits and pushes with 3-4 of them later
3) what to do against T on LT? Thor/mmm drop on the natural ledge is afaik uncounterable without heavy investing into sunkens below ledge/drop which leave you vulnerable to normal play; expanding far away is also very risky against multiple drops and alike
Hi. NA Top 200 Zerg here, but I personally think it doesn't mean anything because we're all still learning a new game, but if it makes you feel any better. Anyway, I'd like to provide some of my insight in this thread and hopefully it will help.
1) Dealing with Hellion requires a different response depending on the number of Hellions he has. If you scout the typical Factory+Reactor early on, and he doesn't have any Hellions yet, then you might be able to catch the first 2 Hellions as they come out. It's important to keep a group of Lings very close (but out of sight) to the Terran door, so you can see the Hellions attempt to leave. It's EXTREMELY important to have ling speed and enough lings to surround the # of Hellions he has. If he is able to amass a good # of Hellions (more than 6), it largely comes down to how well you control your units. Try not to engage the Hellions with any number of Lings that doesn't sufficiently surround the Hellions (if he has 4 hellions, try to have around 16 Lings etc) and always try to move past the Hellions and cut off their escape path.
After Pre-Igniter is done, a mix of Roaches and Lings will handle the Hellions. When it gets into later game, you should have a surplus of minerals since gas is the limiting factor. I find it really re-assuring to build 3 to 4 sunks at any of my mining bases to deter Hellion crap. Having burrow definitely helps too in keeping Drones alive. Running away your drones usually results in lining them up for a nice BBQ. Keep overlords in every flight path to see if Dropships are coming in and always spread creep as wide as possible.
2) Banelings are really important against pretty much every Terran composition, so I would definitely suggest getting them. If you weren't initially getting Banelings, definitely try to have a Baneling nest after you get a Lair. It's really great for quickly destroying the repairing SCVs and the front-loaded Baneling damage is pretty good against the thick armor of the factory units. Engage the Thor push with your army and flood the Banelings in shortly after, when the SCVs start piling on the Thor. Just right click the Banelings onto the Thor and the results should be pleasing. Just make sure you don't send the Banelings in first or else they will all die a few yards in front of the Terran army.
3) This is definitely quite a difficult strategy to deal with on this map. I'm not entirely sure if there is a single proper response but I can tell you what has worked for me. Expand as normal and don't over-do the Spines at your natural. Just build 1 Spine at the edge of the cliff to delay the drop momentarily. Tech aggressively towards Mutalisks (possible skipping the Queen at your main hatchery). It's likely that his drop will kill the Spine at your natural and start shelling the hatchery there, but you should be able to get 6 or so Mutas to deal with it when the hatch is at about half health.
Another option which has worked for me against less aware Terrans is to tech aggressively to Nydus and go pretty much all speedling/roach. It's quite all-in but the T pretty much never has ANYTHING at their main when they execute this drop on LT.
Hopefully some of this helps!
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Sorry if this has been asked before, I did search I promise. Anyway what are some good scout timings against P and T? I feel like I am capable of responding correctly, the problem is knowing what I need to prepare for. For example,
how do I scout Banshee/Void Ray harass? How do you know if they aren't going to just make medivacs and do a drop instead? or go phoenixes or vikings and pick off ovys?
or early 2 gate pressure or 4 gate or anything in between with robo? How can you tell if they have proxy'd something?
Oh also, are there any builds that, if scouted, allows me to just drone like crazy? or should i always be doing that anyway
- 600 diam if it matters, I probably sound noob
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I have a question about hatchery/queen control.
I've seen two methods to control them :
A) One hotkey for queens, one hotkey for hatcheries.
B) One hotkey per hatchery, no hotkeys for queens.
The way I see it, these are the pros/cons of each :
Pro A :
1 - Less hotkeys later on (3rd hatch +)
2 - Can spawn larvae from minimap
3 - Less clicks to spawn larvae : QueenHotkey + 2 * (Click V, Click hatchery in minimap) = 2 * number of hatcheries + 1
Con A :
1 - Don't have control over which hatchery spawns which creature (want to drone up at 3rd base? sucks to be you)
2 - Queens might move from base to base accidentaly (not enough energy -> other queens will come to spawn instead)
3 - Harder to know which hatcheries are spawning larvae
Pro B:
1 - Can see which hatcheries are spawning larva by hotkeys only
2 - Can control which base creates which creatures
Con B:
1 - Harder macro - for each hatchery, double click hotkey, click queen, click v, click hatchery. 5 clicks per hatchery.
2 - No hotkey for queens (for combat usage)
3 - More hotkeys
Am I missing main points in the debate? Is there any easier method to perform the latter technique?
As for deciding between the two, I guess it all comes down to technique. A has mainly "ease of use" advantages, while B has more "actual" advantages.
I see most of the top players using B, so I guess
Being a relative noob (platinum, my APM is a bit less than 100) I'm not sure which one suits me best. Should I start with A and move to be when my technique improves or should I force myself to practice the harder technique?
Another related question - hand placement.
If I put my left hand in the natural WASD position, I find it hard to reach the hotkeys 6 and beyond. However, if I put it where I can reach 6-7 comfortably, I can't reach the CTRL/SHIFT buttons easily. Should I be stretching harder or moving the base of my hand more?
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@Noman:
Here's what I use; I'd not call myself good enough to give advice on playing, but this is more of a perspective/personal choice thing, is it not? :D
1-3 army
4 - all hatcheries/ all hatcheries to be used for army production (island hatcheries are somewhat less useful to have selected when you want to pop some ultras...)
5,6,7 and so on : queens close to each hatchery. so, 5 is the queen(s) next to main, 6 is the queen(s) next to natural, and so on. If you want, you can add the relevant hatchery to the group too.
then I do 4,S,whatever unit I want to build to make units and
5,5,v,click in middle of screen to spawn larvae.
I can personally do the rapid tapping of keys with just 1 click in between pretty fast, especially if what I have to hit is a hatchery in the middle of my screen (a lot faster than fiddling with the minimap...) For me at least, spawning happens in sequence, so the issue of 8-9 being far away isn't an actual issue when using the keys, just keep shifting the tapping finger one button to the right each time.
I chose this setup because I want to be able to spawn units fast (all hatcheries on one button) and I want to be able to select my queens fast (defence, spawning, creeping. Stupid overlords used to always end up on top of the queen somehow, making her unclickable...). The fact that this way doesn't cause queens to walk halfway across the map is just a bonus. :D
Also, big thanks to Saracen and the others for helping us little zerglings on our way
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Yeah, I know IdrA in particular likes to individually hotkey his queens. And if IdrA does it, it's probably awesome. It's just too much work for me. I go 1-3 for army, 4 for all hatcheries, 5 for all queens. Then I can just hit 5, backspace, shift+v click, backspace to the next hatchery in line, etc. Makes for really fast inject larvae time for me - a noob who lacks keyboard skills and uber APM and isn't IdrA. lol
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On September 28 2010 02:59 Ardek wrote:
Sorry if this has been asked before, I did search I promise. Anyway what are some good scout timings against P and T? I feel like I am capable of responding correctly, the problem is knowing what I need to prepare for. For example,
how do I scout Banshee/Void Ray harass? How do you know if they aren't going to just make medivacs and do a drop instead? or go phoenixes or vikings and pick off ovys?
Tech Lab is the major indicator for Banshees. Also be mindful of how quickly they pick up their second gas.
Scouting Voids can be a little bit trickier. Obviously, keep your drone as long as you can. From there, try to pick up on hints as to what toss is up to.
1. Did he get a quick second gas? Might be void rays.
2. When you poke up his ramp with lings, do you notice a very small army? Might be void rays.
3. Is he producing a largely zealot ground army? (ie: Is he saving all his gas for something else?) Might be void rays
4. Does he have an abnormally low gateway count? Almost definitely void rays.
Be ready to sac an overlord around 24-26 supply,
or early 2 gate pressure or 4 gate or anything in between with robo? How can you tell if they have proxy'd something?
2 gates before gas is a pretty heavy indicator of 2 gate pressure. Don't freak out and overproduce lings/roaches, though. You still need to get an overlord in there to see if he's committing to zealots, or doing something else.
For scouting 4 gate, one of the best hints is chrono boost on his cyber core. Another pretty good indicator: 4 gateways. ; )
Rules for scouting the robo are about the same as voids. Robo is much less scary, though, since everything you can produce on hatchery tech can fight robo units.
Oh also, are there any builds that, if scouted, allows me to just drone like crazy? or should i always be doing that anyway
- 600 diam if it matters, I probably sound noob
Any time the other guy fast expands, you've got a free pass to drone at will.
Your droning is really proportionate to what you scout. If you see that he's not cranking out tons of units, then you're safe to drone. If he's looking like he wants to be aggressive, you need to get some defenses in place.
There's a great quote from Saracen somewhere (I wish I could find it. Halp Saracen?) that goes into pretty good detail on when you should be droning, and when you should be making combat units.
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On September 28 2010 04:59 Enyalus wrote:
Yeah, I know IdrA in particular likes to individually hotkey his queens. And if IdrA does it, it's probably awesome. It's just too much work for me. I go 1-3 for army, 4 for all hatcheries, 5 for all queens. Then I can just hit 5, backspace, shift+v click, backspace to the next hatchery in line, etc. Makes for really fast inject larvae time for me - a noob who lacks keyboard skills and uber APM and isn't IdrA. lol
A lot of players with BW backgrounds hotkey hatcheries individually because that's how you did it in BW.
There's really not a right or wrong way to manage your queens and hatcheries. It comes down to what works for you.
I keep my Queens on 4, and my hatcheries on 5, and then use the shift+backspace method to handle injections.
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EPT
