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The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 19

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
dave333
Profile Joined August 2010
United States915 Posts
September 25 2010 15:18 GMT
#361
Against all these hellion/rauder/thor stuff, I find the best is roach/baneling. Instead of gas heavy mutas, you get a lottt of banelings and blow up a lot of shit with them while roaches can tank. banelings aren't light so pre ignite and hellions in general don't do much.
Euriti
Profile Joined September 2010
Denmark72 Posts
September 25 2010 15:20 GMT
#362
I don't find the issue to be with the hellions. They just nullify any lings but dont do much to the roaches. The thors just wrecks stuff and I estimated I'd need at least 15 of them to deal with 4 thors, if not more due to repairing
dave333
Profile Joined August 2010
United States915 Posts
September 25 2010 15:23 GMT
#363
Maybe try burrow moving them into the thors then focus em down. obviously you get the health regen too.

I feel like a noob but I've been having some trouble with fast 6 pool+crawler when I don't 10 pool. The crawlers are a serious issue.
Euriti
Profile Joined September 2010
Denmark72 Posts
September 25 2010 15:38 GMT
#364
I usually dont find I have the minerals/gas to spare at this point for that.

Replays of each situation:
http://starcraft2reps.com/index.php?a=details&id=1974 - Thor Rush
http://starcraft2reps.com/index.php?a=details&id=1975 - 6 pool crawler rush
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
September 25 2010 15:55 GMT
#365
On September 25 2010 17:33 Eazypeezy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2010 12:21 Saracen wrote:
On September 21 2010 11:56 raybasto wrote:
Against Toss, what is the best way to fend off 4 gate pressure and survive till the late game. It seems like if I open Hydras/Ling/Spines, they fast expand and switch to 2 gate Robo in which I am unable to defend long enough to get Ultra/Ling (Whether its because of lack of harass or over commiting to Hydra/Roach). If I open Muta/Ling, they keep the 4 gate pressure until my defenses finally break.

This is what I do against 4gate:
14 pool
15 hatch
15 queen/overlord
- when that queen finishes, build another queen, take your gas, and spit larva at the main then movie it to your nat (you might want to take your gas slightly earlier)
- drone to 32 supply, then MASS lings - build nothing but lings/overlords
- take a drone off of gas whenever you have the 100 gas for speed
- I have been able to beat 4gate with exclusively lings, but you might want to add roaches or banelings if you're feeling uncomfortable, like maybe he's going heavy zeal/sentry or something
- try to engage him as soon as speed finishes because you don't want his gateway ball to grow too large, and you don't want him to have too many force fields


Hello Saracen, Iv'e been using a similar build all along to defend 4 gates. slings + spines and maybe some roaches seems to be working just fine for me. My question is this. Im on Blistering sands, I have used the above build so im sitting on 2 bases and ive got a decent # of drones + 2 spines at my natural. The protoss player shows up at my front door and pokes in and out but dosent really engage me, instead he is forcing me to make more lings. So basically this protoss delayed his 4gate untill he got a few collosus out and crushed me. I was caught off gaurd because I didnt scout very well. The only scouting information was with my 1st sacraficial overloard around 30 supply seeeing 4gates + 1 robo and when he was poking in and out with his gateway force I managed to get a few lings to his natural and see that he had a Nexus warping in. I guess I assumed that sense he was expanding I was safe to drone up further but clearly I was wrong. Given the information I had, or say you knew "ok this guy is delaying his 4gate push until he gets a few collosus and hes expanding. What would you have done differently?

EDIT: also I need to work on my multitasking, I had a spire up with some mutas but I kindof blindly teched to them and wasnt sure if it was the right choice. I think if i was smoother with my timings I coulve easily had more mutas out and maybe stopped the attack.However, im not even sure if they were the right choice. Thanks so much for your help

i actually hate saracen's build. Its the dimaga-esqe build and I dont think dimaga is doing all that well zvp these days^_^.
Thing is its so fragile. You think hes 4 gating but hes not? Youre behind. Bam boom good night. i think doign the other dimaga build where he rushes hydra or massing roaches like idra will yield superior results.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
September 25 2010 16:02 GMT
#366
On September 25 2010 17:13 Saracen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2010 11:41 Medzo wrote:
How do you guys deal with mass blink stalker? I seriously lose to this more than anything else in scII right now. I am kind of completely unsure how to beat it. Seems everything I try (even mass hydra) isn't working. Currently a 1300 zerg player. Please give details and or reps.

Mass lings or ling/hydra. If you're losing to mass blink stalker, it's probably more the fault of your opening than your response.

Definitely put in roach. The shit in SC2 is the concave and with blink stalkers protoss keep screwing that shit up. Having roach ling and hydra(i also slam in fungal growth) allows u to have maximum burst because you dont have to worry about dps as much- even though ur units clump up you get the maximum possible burst by having units that can attack from all 3 range distances.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
Sfydjklm
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States9218 Posts
September 25 2010 16:08 GMT
#367
On September 26 2010 00:15 Euriti wrote:

2) ZvT Thor/Blue Flame Hellion Rushes - I end up having 6 hellions and 4-5 thors with scvs following hitting me around 11-12 minutes. Lings are useless and I cant get a critical mass of roaches in time, even with spine crawlers out.


unfortunately you have to have lings to beat that.
basically you have roaches that you attack with constantly and then you have lings that you attack with in waves- so tehy dont clump up. Get enough to get more or less of a surround and try to do so, then send in the next wave immidiately(first wave will die very quickly). You have to get a sense of what reinforcments to pop, usually its msotly ling and few roaches because once the critical mass of blueflames is gone its just easier to deal wtih lings. And if he keeps bringing blueflames roaches easily repel this as long as they dont sli by.

Also in these situations i usually have liek 4 queens because im thinking banshee and omg they help so much with infusion and usually i target scvs with them- i dunno why but it just been working out for me to attack stuff that isnt repaired with roaches, attack scvs with queens and surround with the lingies.
twitter.com/therealdhalism | "Trying out Z = lots of losses vs inferior players until you figure out how to do it well (if it even works)."- Liquid'Tyler
Izzachar
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden285 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-25 16:34:57
September 25 2010 16:32 GMT
#368
On September 26 2010 00:15 Euriti wrote:
I have 2 major issues right now

1) ZvZ 6 pools - I get 6 pooled in about 60% of my ZvZs (diamond level) with a spine crawler or 2 put in my base and i just cant do anything against it. I scout it, throw down a 12/13 pool but the amount of lings + crawlers he gets is overwhelming



I'm no pro but I think I can give some advice here.

Against Z I either always get 12 pool or scout (at 8-9) so I can get a pool at 12-13 pool if he 6 pools.

Make sure you save 3 larvae for lings of course.

You want 4 drones on a crawler to kill it. So if there are 2 crawlers send 8 drones total 4 to each crawler. But there are lings there as well....

What will happen is that he stabs in and out with his lings to try and kill of your drones and you do not want that. Pull back the drones, keep your drones together, and try and wait for your own lings to pop or to get a nice surround with ALL your drones on the lings. Do not let him surround and pick off lone drones for free, you also naturally dont wanna let him attack your drones freely when they are attacking his spines. If he micros good with lings to keep you from attacking his crawlers wait for your own lings. Your lings should pop soon here and when they do have them attack his lings and now send the drones to kill of his spines.

If it looks really nasty or if you do not feel comfortable with the micro to hold off a 6 pool I think you can put down 1 or 2 crawlers yourself as soon as you can. This will put pressure on him to deal with your crawlers and you will have the advantage of taking some free hits on his lings with your drones while waiting for your own lings. How to place these crawlers really depends where he placed his in regards to your mineral line etc.
ryanAnger
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States838 Posts
September 25 2010 17:01 GMT
#369
I have a couple questions for you Saracen:

Do you feel like a lot of top Zerg players try to overdrone in the early stages of the game? Recently, upon discovering Dimagas ZvP +1 Ling Build, I've realized that you can get away with having 25-30 drones spread out over two bases and still have at least equal, if not better than, economy as your 1 base opponent.

Do Zerg players in general try to get out of T1 too fast? After watching a lot of Koreans, I see they have a tendency to stay on T1 and even like to get upgrades before starting Lair, working off of only 1 gas. It seems to work fairly well for them, and it's been working well for me (I'm only 1000 pts, but I keep getting matched w/ 1300-1400's). It feels a lot safer to stay on T1 and build up a sizable army to defend the push. Is it actually plausible at a higher level, or is this idea just a result of my lower level of play?
On my way...
Elfanger
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia1 Post
September 25 2010 17:13 GMT
#370
I am looking for a reliable ZvZ build to use, any recommendations?

Thanks.
Wallbreaker
skindzer
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
Chile5114 Posts
September 25 2010 17:33 GMT
#371
On September 25 2010 23:58 Rahlekk wrote:
When making Banelings, can you just hold E to transform them all en-mass, instead of tapping E a bunch of times?


Seriously? Cant you just test this in game?
Its not only the rain that brings the thunder
sooch
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada299 Posts
September 25 2010 17:43 GMT
#372
All the dedicated SC2 replay sites aren't working for me, so I linked my replay here: http://www.mediafire.com/?kkda4u7oj2lkinn

In this replay toss expands quickly following my 15 hatch. Ignoring the fact that perhaps he could have lost to mass ling off 2 hatch due to his unsafe expansion, what do you did I do wrong? I need help, in general, with economic protosses. I already shared this replay with slained, and he pointed out that I probably should have 4 gassed earlier for more mutas, pressured his rocks earlier, and delayed upgrades until I got map control. Besides that, do you (saracen + others) see anything else that could have been done differently?
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
September 25 2010 17:51 GMT
#373
On September 26 2010 02:43 sooch wrote:
All the dedicated SC2 replay sites aren't working for me, so I linked my replay here: http://www.mediafire.com/?kkda4u7oj2lkinn

In this replay toss expands quickly following my 15 hatch. Ignoring the fact that perhaps he could have lost to mass ling off 2 hatch due to his unsafe expansion, what do you did I do wrong? I need help, in general, with economic protosses. I already shared this replay with slained, and he pointed out that I probably should have 4 gassed earlier for more mutas, pressured his rocks earlier, and delayed upgrades until I got map control. Besides that, do you (saracen + others) see anything else that could have been done differently?


I feel like muta is the hands down best way to punish a Toss for expanding too early. Lings are great for defending, but if you take 30+ of them and try to break down the Toss front, you really need him to make a mistake (ie: letting them get up his ramp) for that trade to be worthwhile.

Muta, on the other hand, can be safely massed after Toss FEs (he's not going to have the units to pressure you) and can then harass really well by bouncing back and forth between expos, picking off probes and stray tech structures.

Even if you do minimal economic damage, Toss is going to have to spend so much on defenses, that you're going to be ahead anyway.

Remember, you still want to squeeze in a third, but after that, if you spend all your gas on mutas, and the rest of your excess minerals on lings, you should be able to handle toss pretty easily once he decides its time to leave his base.
dave333
Profile Joined August 2010
United States915 Posts
September 25 2010 17:55 GMT
#374
I'm in a serious slump with ZvZ. I was on a hot 10 win streak before, now it's a 6 loss streak. I've tried bling/ling builds, roach builds, but I can't seem to find the balance between aggression and tech, or defense and aggression.

I feel like rushing roach and grabbing an expand is the most economical thing, and then grabbing lair tech. The trouble is scouting can be so hard ZvZ when lings are covering ramps, the only thing I can think of is sending lots more ovies over to see what is going on.

It's just ugh right now, it's hard to scout, that's the real issue.
sooch
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada299 Posts
September 25 2010 18:18 GMT
#375
On September 26 2010 02:51 MrBitter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2010 02:43 sooch wrote:
All the dedicated SC2 replay sites aren't working for me, so I linked my replay here: http://www.mediafire.com/?kkda4u7oj2lkinn

In this replay toss expands quickly following my 15 hatch. Ignoring the fact that perhaps he could have lost to mass ling off 2 hatch due to his unsafe expansion, what do you did I do wrong? I need help, in general, with economic protosses. I already shared this replay with slained, and he pointed out that I probably should have 4 gassed earlier for more mutas, pressured his rocks earlier, and delayed upgrades until I got map control. Besides that, do you (saracen + others) see anything else that could have been done differently?


I feel like muta is the hands down best way to punish a Toss for expanding too early. Lings are great for defending, but if you take 30+ of them and try to break down the Toss front, you really need him to make a mistake (ie: letting them get up his ramp) for that trade to be worthwhile.

Muta, on the other hand, can be safely massed after Toss FEs (he's not going to have the units to pressure you) and can then harass really well by bouncing back and forth between expos, picking off probes and stray tech structures.

Even if you do minimal economic damage, Toss is going to have to spend so much on defenses, that you're going to be ahead anyway.

Remember, you still want to squeeze in a third, but after that, if you spend all your gas on mutas, and the rest of your excess minerals on lings, you should be able to handle toss pretty easily once he decides its time to leave his base.


Did you watch the replay? D:
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
September 25 2010 19:47 GMT
#376
On September 26 2010 03:18 sooch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2010 02:51 MrBitter wrote:
On September 26 2010 02:43 sooch wrote:
All the dedicated SC2 replay sites aren't working for me, so I linked my replay here: http://www.mediafire.com/?kkda4u7oj2lkinn

In this replay toss expands quickly following my 15 hatch. Ignoring the fact that perhaps he could have lost to mass ling off 2 hatch due to his unsafe expansion, what do you did I do wrong? I need help, in general, with economic protosses. I already shared this replay with slained, and he pointed out that I probably should have 4 gassed earlier for more mutas, pressured his rocks earlier, and delayed upgrades until I got map control. Besides that, do you (saracen + others) see anything else that could have been done differently?


I feel like muta is the hands down best way to punish a Toss for expanding too early. Lings are great for defending, but if you take 30+ of them and try to break down the Toss front, you really need him to make a mistake (ie: letting them get up his ramp) for that trade to be worthwhile.

Muta, on the other hand, can be safely massed after Toss FEs (he's not going to have the units to pressure you) and can then harass really well by bouncing back and forth between expos, picking off probes and stray tech structures.

Even if you do minimal economic damage, Toss is going to have to spend so much on defenses, that you're going to be ahead anyway.

Remember, you still want to squeeze in a third, but after that, if you spend all your gas on mutas, and the rest of your excess minerals on lings, you should be able to handle toss pretty easily once he decides its time to leave his base.


Did you watch the replay? D:


Not initially... But I just did, just for you. =D

The first, and biggest thing that jumps out at me is pretty poor scouting. You didn't make any real effort in the first 6 minutes of the game to scout HIM with lings. As a result of this, you didn't know he had fast expanded until after you blindly dropped your roach warren.

You have to, have to, have to scout constantly. Especially as a Zerg player. Had you seen his FE around the time that he planted it, you'd have been able to do several things differently:

1.) Get gas sooner. Your gas was soo late. Your first gas, and your next three were all very heavily delayed.

2.) Start your lair sooner. If I see a toss FE, I'll often delay speed in favor of a faster lair.

3.) Have mutas faster, and in greater numbers from the extra gas.

Another thing to note:

If you're going to go muta, GO muta. If you're going to go roach, GO roach. You went spire, +1 attack, +1 carapace, and roach speed. That's 550 gas going down two seperate tech paths, very early in the game. (Not to mention you never built any roaches)

As a result of this, when you guys fought, you had 7 mutas (too few) and 33 lings (could have done a little better here too) against his 11 zealots, 11 stalkers, and 5 sentries.

If you cut out some of the indecision, and truly commit one way or another, I think you could realistically have 10-11 mutas and about 50 lings for that fight, in which case, I think you'd clean it up no problem.

One last small, but important thing: You supply blocked yourself right before you guys fought, and had 7 unused larvae. This is nitpicking a bit, but 14 more lings would have certainly helped.
GreyTemplar
Profile Joined September 2010
22 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-25 20:30:56
September 25 2010 20:21 GMT
#377
Ok i have a question about Zergs who've experimented with a BO similar to this.

I cant remember it exactly as i never wrote it down and its in my head on timings

13extractor,
12pool
drone to 15
15 OL
18 Lair
18 Extractor

and timings are off from there (again no replays as i am at work) but i drop my queen after the lair finishes and a spire immediatly as well, or a hydra den if its a ZvP match up. Been trying to find a way to refine this and speed it up if possible.

I usually drop a hatch on my nat while the lair is constructing or my spire based on timing of my minerals. I've tried this a few times and worked really well in a couple of ZvTs where i dropped an infestor pit after my expo went down and teched to GSpire and BLs.

sooch
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada299 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-25 20:41:01
September 25 2010 20:40 GMT
#378
On September 26 2010 04:47 MrBitter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 26 2010 03:18 sooch wrote:
On September 26 2010 02:51 MrBitter wrote:
On September 26 2010 02:43 sooch wrote:
All the dedicated SC2 replay sites aren't working for me, so I linked my replay here: http://www.mediafire.com/?kkda4u7oj2lkinn

In this replay toss expands quickly following my 15 hatch. Ignoring the fact that perhaps he could have lost to mass ling off 2 hatch due to his unsafe expansion, what do you did I do wrong? I need help, in general, with economic protosses. I already shared this replay with slained, and he pointed out that I probably should have 4 gassed earlier for more mutas, pressured his rocks earlier, and delayed upgrades until I got map control. Besides that, do you (saracen + others) see anything else that could have been done differently?


I feel like muta is the hands down best way to punish a Toss for expanding too early. Lings are great for defending, but if you take 30+ of them and try to break down the Toss front, you really need him to make a mistake (ie: letting them get up his ramp) for that trade to be worthwhile.

Muta, on the other hand, can be safely massed after Toss FEs (he's not going to have the units to pressure you) and can then harass really well by bouncing back and forth between expos, picking off probes and stray tech structures.

Even if you do minimal economic damage, Toss is going to have to spend so much on defenses, that you're going to be ahead anyway.

Remember, you still want to squeeze in a third, but after that, if you spend all your gas on mutas, and the rest of your excess minerals on lings, you should be able to handle toss pretty easily once he decides its time to leave his base.


Did you watch the replay? D:


Not initially... But I just did, just for you. =D

The first, and biggest thing that jumps out at me is pretty poor scouting. You didn't make any real effort in the first 6 minutes of the game to scout HIM with lings. As a result of this, you didn't know he had fast expanded until after you blindly dropped your roach warren.

You have to, have to, have to scout constantly. Especially as a Zerg player. Had you seen his FE around the time that he planted it, you'd have been able to do several things differently:

1.) Get gas sooner. Your gas was soo late. Your first gas, and your next three were all very heavily delayed.

2.) Start your lair sooner. If I see a toss FE, I'll often delay speed in favor of a faster lair.

3.) Have mutas faster, and in greater numbers from the extra gas.

Another thing to note:

If you're going to go muta, GO muta. If you're going to go roach, GO roach. You went spire, +1 attack, +1 carapace, and roach speed. That's 550 gas going down two seperate tech paths, very early in the game. (Not to mention you never built any roaches)

As a result of this, when you guys fought, you had 7 mutas (too few) and 33 lings (could have done a little better here too) against his 11 zealots, 11 stalkers, and 5 sentries.

If you cut out some of the indecision, and truly commit one way or another, I think you could realistically have 10-11 mutas and about 50 lings for that fight, in which case, I think you'd clean it up no problem.

One last small, but important thing: You supply blocked yourself right before you guys fought, and had 7 unused larvae. This is nitpicking a bit, but 14 more lings would have certainly helped.


Yeah I played an identical game vs another fast expanding player and did all of those things and came out on top. Roach warren was definitely a mistake, as was getting the upgrade. My OL was poorly positioned to sight his expo as it was going up. Something I disagree with, though was that you should rush lair vs a toss going FE. I think it's important to not get too antsy with the gas and ensure that your mineral economy is decent...

Delaying ling speed is also scary, because if they come at you with a surprise push, your primary defenses are going to be spinecrawlers and panic lings. If you don't have ling speed, you kind of die from my experience.

PS thanks for watching the replay btw, I could tell you didn't because your comments were super generic stuff that I would probably tell someone asking the same question as I was lol.
krayon
Profile Joined September 2010
1 Post
September 25 2010 21:13 GMT
#379
Hi, I'm a lowly silver player and I recently switched from Terran to Zerg and I am having a hard time deciding if I need roaches. I've been watching a lot of Dimaga replays and he seems to favour lings and blings as his ground force, but occasionally I see him get a roaches and I can't figure out what prompts him to do this. Is going ling/bling/muta or roach/hydra/infestor the terran equivalent of going bio or mech? Is it ever a good idea to mix roaches into your ling/blin/muta composition? I'm pretty decent at keeping up with my upgrades and it seems like a waste to go roaches when I spent so many resources upgrading melee attack.
syrianrue
Profile Joined July 2010
United States56 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-26 03:41:32
September 26 2010 03:18 GMT
#380
Question 1:

if i go 14 hatch, 13 pool, how do I defend from an early attack or cheese? and what if the opponent doesn't fast expand like me, what if he just one base and start making t1 attack units early while i spend time 300 minerals on a new hatch, then get new queen, as well as all the drones required to saturate the 2 bases?

Question 2:


which maps are good to fast expand (14 hatch, 13 pool) on? and which maps are better for (14 gas/14 pool?)

Question 3:


what are some good tech transitions for:

vs terran
vs protoss
vs zerg
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