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kamicom
United States180 Posts
Which is better for larvae production, Queen or Hatchery? (Ignore Queen's transfusion and creep) I know early game, queen is of course the obvious way to go. However, I've been going FE to a 3 hatch base (no queen) lately, and it seems as if I always have larvae to produce from. I've had a lot of success so far in the diamond leagues (so long as I hold off the initial push to crack my FE) | ||
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wonkyu
Korea (South)6 Posts
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pyaar
United States423 Posts
Queen = 1/10 larvae/game sec naturally hatcheries don't have the downside of relying on solid macro to keep spawn larvas back-to-back, but that pales in comparison to the much cheaper cost of queens in addition to their other abilities (attack, transfusion, creep tumor). | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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optical630
United Kingdom768 Posts
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SeeN_CiRcUs
37 Posts
Also, most people do not have perfect larva inject so, as Schnullerbacke said, I think getting an occasional extra hatch might be the better choice since you will likely be able to double larva inject in an action packed game. | ||
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Demus
Netherlands305 Posts
Other than that (and slightly off-topic), grabbing a 3rd inbase hatch after a FE can work, but without queens you're just endangered by so many possible openings. You need a lightning fast lair to hold of any air pushes, while your hydra's are still damn slow on some maps because your natural is so far away your creep isn't connected even with the hatch halfway (DO mainly, kulas as well afaik). No creep outside of your hatchs' perimeter also means reapers will be a lot more effective (even though the previously mentioned fast lair should be able to shut down major reaper plays). | ||
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Chronicle
161 Posts
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
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BaaL`
297 Posts
Also, Hatcheries without Queens will not stack beyond 3 Larva. So if you have bad macro, you will not get enouhg Larva anyway. | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
I can imagine delaying queens can be viable if you feel that your build isn't designed to take advantage of the higher larvae generation that queens provide. Even without queens, you may be able to spend all your money and larvae for a time just from hatchery larvae. EDIT: But as other posters have mentioned, queens grant unique utilities that can be crucial in a lot of the situations Zerg players face. At the very least, the later the queen, the later your creep tumor spread will begin. | ||
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Markionium
Netherlands33 Posts
Where i don't know but sure, but i'm quite certain that if you have a decent control on larvae inject you will be way more efficient on the larvae production. And ofc, early creep tumor spread is always good. And if you do have energy to spare at some point while getting pushed you might get a transfuse off on something. Queens will also be your early defense vs air. An extra hatch could probably work, but i think that queens have too many advantages to just think about larvae production. Late game an extra hatch might be more useful. Cause macro wise you get more stuff to do and might miss larvae injects more often. But i guess with almost perfect larvae inject queens would still beat the extra hatch. So it's just personal preference in the end i guess, depending on your macro abilities | ||
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dsxrflol
42 Posts
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Gwin
United States52 Posts
It feels very "broodwar esque" to play zerg this way; low supply, relying on just a handful of lings and spine crawlers early in the game. You have to be MUCH more aware, and careful with your larva then you would be in a typical game. Once the tank change happens, I could easily see things like 3 hatch muta, 5 hatch hydra becoming a interesting build to try. Skipping a queen also has the bonus of letting you get a spawning pool very late, or a lair very quickly. In some of my queenless games, I pooled as late as 18 food, letting me get a huge economic lead and a 2nd hatch in main very quickly. I won't claim that not using queens is better then using them. I just feel that it was a interesting tool to make me aware of how careful I should be with my larva. There are also certainly advantages to skipping them early, and getting one later for the increased unit production and/or creep. On a general note, its always better to ask these types of questions, and not assume things blindly. | ||
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Darthturtle
United States718 Posts
In terms of pure larvae production, queens spawning larvae regularly provide more larvae than a hatch that's continually spending every larvae. Spawn larvae pops 4 larvae every 40 seconds. Hatcheries naturally produce 3 larvae every 45 seconds. If you 'always have larvae' with no queens, then the problem is that your macro is bad. Build more drones. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Lategame, extra hatcheries are better. You can spend your APM somewhere else, without having to worry about spawning larva so much, and it doesnt take up supply, so you can have a bigger army. Due to supply, a queen actually costs 175 minerals, and a hatchery only 325. hatcheries let you wall off more easily, and have a lot of life, queens can fight back, and block ramps, as well as help against early lair. With queens, you need a relatively early pool, and cant get a super early lair Queens can ramp up a ton of larva, a hatch wont ever get past 3 larva without a queen. and so on. Its not really as easy as just "haha, queens make more larva per mineral invested than hatcheries". | ||
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DreamSailor
Canada433 Posts
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=149753 Having extra hatcheries and no queens forces you to connect your base via overlords, and forces you to cycle your larva from all your hatcheries. Consequently, since you aren't making a queen, you can get a lair very quickly. (second 100 gas) I dropped a evochamber early on for emergency AA, and +1 armor for my lings. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
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TechDeft
United States211 Posts
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KandLeMaN
United States64 Posts
and i just figured it out, Fast Expansion wooh i feel smart | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
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GGruss
Sweden121 Posts
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Scottymc
Australia134 Posts
queens are better if u can remember to micro them but if you find your queen has 200 energy your better off with a hatchery. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
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Victim
United States188 Posts
Even if the hatchery and queen provided larva at the same effective rate, the queen can kick in sooner because of the lower cost and build time, and thus provides more actual units. The hatch would stay ~4 larva behind. Getting 4 extra drones early on really ramps up your economy, or 8 extra lings can be the difference between holding and not. My brother tried a no queen style with faster hatcheries, and kept getting crushed by early pushes because the increased delay before getting additional production meant his economy and army size didn't ramp up quickly enough to keep up with his opponents. Plus Queens are pretty reasonable anti-harass units in their own right, especially since they're the only zerg anti-air. Yeah, a hatch has more HP, but it also can't chase reapers/hellions away. Certainly those units are capable of kiting away from queens, but that's hopefully time they're not killing your drones. Once you get to the mid game, I can definitely see favoring extra hatches since players will often miss injects while microing their mutas around or just handling other aspects of a 3+ base economy. | ||
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SuperdanCSB
Canada2 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Nothing wrong with using extra hatcheries as training wheels until you perfect Zerg's macro. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
14 hatch near ramp (not at ramp, zerg has disadvantage of narrowed choke) 13 (or 14) gas 12 (or 13) pool build queen in second hatch, evo, speed, lair, muta. Depending on the opponent i put my 3rd hatch early on or when muta harass starts. Do not build the hatch directly near ramp, but a bit behind. put one or two spines in range of ramp entry, so incoming enemies will be attacked by spines, but you have room to do ling surround while enemy is attacked by spines. this is the best way for zerg to block the ramp. What's cool with this build: * its robust reaper/hellion does not work that good (small area to defend) against that. 2 gate is defended easily. banshees are not a problem because of safe early lair. Queen is out in time. * decent eco Skipping the 1st hatch queen + extra supply of in base hatch allows for extra eco early in the game which compensates for late expand a bit. * flexible if your opponent is greedy, you are able to get a 2cnd queen and pump slings like hell to do early agression ;-) * good defense (partial ramp block) | ||
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rockslave
Brazil318 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11519 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On September 19 2010 11:50 Simberto wrote: One thing i do not really accept is the people saying that queens are worse than hatcheries lategame. Especially if you are maxed, the total larvae production rate is not that interesting when compared to the abilitiy to stockpile a large amount of larva for after you trade some armies. i agree, indeed i am just delaying the first queen as it blocks supply, blocks lair (no fast lair possible). i build queens later on of course. But as always: the later money/supply is spend for something not-a-drone, the better your start up (talking of supply < 20..30). Stockpiling larva is extremely important, as it allows to delay production until you detect a rush. If the oppnent does not rush, you do not waste money for an army which does nothing useful (e.g. because of wall in). Stockpiling frees from producing units "just-in-case" mostly. I think this is the most important ability of queen play overall. | ||
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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Cyclon
United States99 Posts
On September 19 2010 02:48 petergibbons wrote: Hatchery = 1/15 larvae/game sec Queen = 1/10 larvae/game sec naturally hatcheries don't have the downside of relying on solid macro to keep spawn larvas back-to-back, but that pales in comparison to the much cheaper cost of queens in addition to their other abilities (attack, transfusion, creep tumor). I've heard that in absolute terms, the Queen lowers hatchery efficiency because when 3 larvae are spawned at once it interrupts the Hatchery's natural larva generation. Does this partially/completely eliminate the advantage 1 Hatch + 1 Queen has over 2 Hatch? In any case, the queen pretty much pays for itself in early on with creep spreading and defense. The only time I could see skipping out on a Queen in favor of a Hatchery as being a good idea is rushing to Lair while expanding. | ||
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ckw
United States1018 Posts
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
queen: costs 2 supply can inject OR spread creep blocks fast lair low hitpoints. can move, attack air, ground 14 in base hatch: gets 2 supply (frees another one because built by drone) spreads creep AND produces larva (sufficient for early game), ramp protection hatch cost 300 + 50 drone - 30 (1/3 overlord) = 320 queen cost 150 + 25 (supply) = 175 (+ hidden cost because you need early ovie to get supply for droning, eco delay ?), APM | ||
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Kegs.aus
Australia133 Posts
On September 19 2010 03:39 Chronicle wrote: Hatchery costs 2x as much as a queen, spawns larvae at a slower rate than injecting and comes out slower than a Queen + 1 inject. A bonus Hatch is only effective as a mineral dump. Unless uve screwed your injects in which case its also an energy dump too. heaps of larvae | ||
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Vikkekh
Sweden47 Posts
But at your scenario i'd root for the queen rather than a extra hatchery | ||
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Emmon
England21 Posts
Fully upgraded they are a very versatile unit - 175hp - 4 armour - 13 vs air - 7 x 2 vs ground - Exempt from +armour type weapon bonuses Combined with just a few ultralisks they make an incredibly hardy hole punching shock troop. And especially good as burrowed ambushers They're utility is exponential to their number though, two together are more than twice as good as a single Queen. | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
On September 19 2010 02:48 petergibbons wrote: Hatchery = 1/15 larvae/game sec Queen = 1/10 larvae/game sec naturally hatcheries don't have the downside of relying on solid macro to keep spawn larvas back-to-back, but that pales in comparison to the much cheaper cost of queens in addition to their other abilities (attack, transfusion, creep tumor). Sure hatcheries also rely on solid macro. Every 20sec you loose a potential larvae if you do not use it. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
In 40s - 2 Queens - cost 300 - produce 2x4 larvae - which are permanent (up to 4 injections) In 40s - 1 Hatch - cost 300(+50) - produce 2x3 larvae - only if you use them every 20s So the hatch optimally requires more micro than queens (and perfect unit planning too), still gets you fewer larvae, and costs a little more. But counting the drone, queens cost you 7 more food = 2x2 queens + 2x1 hatch + 1x1 drone. Which is essentially an overlord - 100 minerals, or 100.7/8 = 87.5. Thus, in minerals per larva per time, queens vs hatcheries have a ratio of 48:58 in favor of the queens. So, queens are roughly about 20% more larva efficient, and only in specially optimized strats you could opt to rely on more hatcheries instead. | ||
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Gimpb
293 Posts
- Doesn't require a pool - Larva generation is smooth - Gives 2 supply instead of using 2 supply Recently I have begun to wondering about doing an early expo without immediate ling speed and queens and relying on roaches instead. When I do the usual ling speed and queen right after pool I often feel like I have wasted quite a lot of money on the fast extractor, the queen, and the ling speed upgrade if it's some T or P just chillin behind a wall. It seems like you could build one queen during the lair upgrade and then one more from each hatch afterward and they would arrive at the time when you actually need the larva and AA. | ||
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