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Is a hatchery more efficient than a queen?

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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1 2 3 Next All
kamicom
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States180 Posts
September 18 2010 17:43 GMT
#1
I've tried to do the math but I wasn't able to convert mineral cost to larvae rate. So, this question is more theoretical (unless someone can has a reasonable explanation of accounting mineral to larvae production)--

Which is better for larvae production, Queen or Hatchery? (Ignore Queen's transfusion and creep)

I know early game, queen is of course the obvious way to go. However, I've been going FE to a 3 hatch base (no queen) lately, and it seems as if I always have larvae to produce from. I've had a lot of success so far in the diamond leagues (so long as I hold off the initial push to crack my FE)
I ragequit if my split fails.
wonkyu
Profile Joined September 2010
Korea (South)6 Posts
September 18 2010 17:45 GMT
#2
In any case, queen is better
pyaar
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States423 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 17:49:52
September 18 2010 17:48 GMT
#3
Hatchery = 1/15 larvae/game sec
Queen = 1/10 larvae/game sec

naturally hatcheries don't have the downside of relying on solid macro to keep spawn larvas back-to-back, but that pales in comparison to the much cheaper cost of queens in addition to their other abilities (attack, transfusion, creep tumor).
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
September 18 2010 18:29 GMT
#4
Well maybe you get a replay of yourself and check what your real Queen production is like. Even pros miss an inject here and there. APM and attention is a precious resource. hatch has 2 supply. I use then one queen to inject both hatches, as i offen miss inject in the heat of the game, so one queen has energy for 2 hatches .. that is optimal for me (60 apm).
21 is half the truth
optical630
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom768 Posts
September 18 2010 18:32 GMT
#5
in any case, send the reps to day9, on monday hes doing a daily dedicated to zerg play without making queens at all
SeeN_CiRcUs
Profile Joined May 2010
37 Posts
September 18 2010 18:35 GMT
#6
Queen is better in absolute terms. Of course, theoretically, there might be times when it would be better to get hatcheries instead - this is evident from the fact queens also cost supply, which might be better spent elsewhere.

Also, most people do not have perfect larva inject so, as Schnullerbacke said, I think getting an occasional extra hatch might be the better choice since you will likely be able to double larva inject in an action packed game.
Demus
Profile Joined May 2010
Netherlands305 Posts
September 18 2010 18:36 GMT
#7
Even with you missing a spawn larva now and then, you only need to spawn half the time to get the maximum efficiency of 1 queen on a main+FE. Adding to that that a queen is 150 minerals compared to the 350 of a hatch, the choice becomes rather obvious. Since you'll have 2 hatches after a FE, you can morph one into a lair and get a queen on the other one.

Other than that (and slightly off-topic), grabbing a 3rd inbase hatch after a FE can work, but without queens you're just endangered by so many possible openings. You need a lightning fast lair to hold of any air pushes, while your hydra's are still damn slow on some maps because your natural is so far away your creep isn't connected even with the hatch halfway (DO mainly, kulas as well afaik). No creep outside of your hatchs' perimeter also means reapers will be a lot more effective (even though the previously mentioned fast lair should be able to shut down major reaper plays).
Chronicle
Profile Joined September 2010
161 Posts
September 18 2010 18:39 GMT
#8
Hatchery costs 2x as much as a queen, spawns larvae at a slower rate than injecting and comes out slower than a Queen + 1 inject. A bonus Hatch is only effective as a mineral dump.
Liquid'Tyler is short for Liquid'Tylenol
ZomgTossRush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1041 Posts
September 18 2010 18:49 GMT
#9
If you were to tell me the opposing player wasnt going to do some midgame timing attack i would consider trying to cut queens. But when i see some midgame timing pushing, i instantly have to make 5/10 units to fend it off.
Coaching for 1v1 and Team games at Gosucoaching.com
BaaL`
Profile Joined May 2010
297 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 18:51:53
September 18 2010 18:50 GMT
#10
With a Queen after FE you wouldnt need the 3rd Hatch, saving you 150 minerals and a Drone.

Also, Hatcheries without Queens will not stack beyond 3 Larva. So if you have bad macro, you will not get enouhg Larva anyway.
EchOne
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States2906 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 18:55:12
September 18 2010 18:51 GMT
#11
Inject larvae generates larvae more rapidly, but since it relies on having an available hatchery that isn't already running an inject larvae timer, for practical purposes the Zerg player wants a mix of both queens and hatcheries for optimal larvae generation.

I can imagine delaying queens can be viable if you feel that your build isn't designed to take advantage of the higher larvae generation that queens provide. Even without queens, you may be able to spend all your money and larvae for a time just from hatchery larvae.

EDIT: But as other posters have mentioned, queens grant unique utilities that can be crucial in a lot of the situations Zerg players face. At the very least, the later the queen, the later your creep tumor spread will begin.
面白くない世の中, 面白くすればいいさ
Markionium
Profile Joined June 2010
Netherlands33 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 19:05:52
September 18 2010 19:03 GMT
#12
Cost wise 1 hatch would = 2 queens (+4 supply ofc)

Where i don't know but sure, but i'm quite certain that if you have a decent control on larvae inject you will be way more efficient on the larvae production.

And ofc, early creep tumor spread is always good. And if you do have energy to spare at some point while getting pushed you might get a transfuse off on something.

Queens will also be your early defense vs air.

An extra hatch could probably work, but i think that queens have too many advantages to just think about larvae production.

Late game an extra hatch might be more useful. Cause macro wise you get more stuff to do and might miss larvae injects more often. But i guess with almost perfect larvae inject queens would still beat the extra hatch. So it's just personal preference in the end i guess, depending on your macro abilities
dsxrflol
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
42 Posts
September 18 2010 19:05 GMT
#13
when you need to mass units and only got 6 larvae you'll be in trouble
Gwin
Profile Joined August 2010
United States52 Posts
September 18 2010 19:49 GMT
#14
This week I've actually been playing with no queens. Once I learned the timings with when I need air defense out against things like banshee openings and void rays, I stopped losing to dumb things like "2 Banshees in main, lair halfway done" I've gone back to losing to the things I normally lose to: Bio+medivacs+tanks. I will say that dropping a hatch at your ramp (creating a walloff) gives you a smaller choke to defend against things like hellions. Also, in one of my games, having a hatchery at my front provides a huge tank for damage which would otherwise have gone to my hydras, losing me the engagement.

It feels very "broodwar esque" to play zerg this way; low supply, relying on just a handful of lings and spine crawlers early in the game. You have to be MUCH more aware, and careful with your larva then you would be in a typical game.

Once the tank change happens, I could easily see things like 3 hatch muta, 5 hatch hydra becoming a interesting build to try.

Skipping a queen also has the bonus of letting you get a spawning pool very late, or a lair very quickly. In some of my queenless games, I pooled as late as 18 food, letting me get a huge economic lead and a 2nd hatch in main very quickly.

I won't claim that not using queens is better then using them. I just feel that it was a interesting tool to make me aware of how careful I should be with my larva. There are also certainly advantages to skipping them early, and getting one later for the increased unit production and/or creep.

On a general note, its always better to ask these types of questions, and not assume things blindly.
SC2 Caster "Gwin" Follow me on Twitter! @gwincraft
Darthturtle
Profile Joined May 2009
United States718 Posts
September 18 2010 19:50 GMT
#15
Hatcheries can't fight back.

In terms of pure larvae production, queens spawning larvae regularly provide more larvae than a hatch that's continually spending every larvae. Spawn larvae pops 4 larvae every 40 seconds. Hatcheries naturally produce 3 larvae every 45 seconds.

If you 'always have larvae' with no queens, then the problem is that your macro is bad. Build more drones.
morimacil
Profile Joined March 2010
France921 Posts
September 18 2010 20:08 GMT
#16
Well there is half a ton more things to consider in this.
Lategame, extra hatcheries are better. You can spend your APM somewhere else, without having to worry about spawning larva so much, and it doesnt take up supply, so you can have a bigger army.
Due to supply, a queen actually costs 175 minerals, and a hatchery only 325.
hatcheries let you wall off more easily, and have a lot of life, queens can fight back, and block ramps, as well as help against early lair.
With queens, you need a relatively early pool, and cant get a super early lair
Queens can ramp up a ton of larva, a hatch wont ever get past 3 larva without a queen.

and so on.
Its not really as easy as just "haha, queens make more larva per mineral invested than hatcheries".
DreamSailor
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada433 Posts
September 18 2010 20:25 GMT
#17
This is the game I submitted to the monday funday.

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=149753

Having extra hatcheries and no queens forces you to connect your base via overlords, and forces you to cycle your larva from all your hatcheries.

Consequently, since you aren't making a queen, you can get a lair very quickly. (second 100 gas)

I dropped a evochamber early on for emergency AA, and +1 armor for my lings.
Where ever you go, there you are.
BlasiuS
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States2405 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 21:45:12
September 18 2010 21:44 GMT
#18
IMO up to 3 bases, you want queens. After 3 bases, you are almost surely in lategame, and at that point it is best to make more hatches instead of queens so that you have more supply for your army.
next week on Everybody Loves HypnoToad:
TechDeft
Profile Joined August 2010
United States211 Posts
September 18 2010 21:50 GMT
#19
Don't forget Queens = air and ground defense.
KandLeMaN
Profile Joined September 2010
United States64 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-18 22:15:21
September 18 2010 22:14 GMT
#20
dumb question but i see it everywhere, what is FE?

and i just figured it out, Fast Expansion

wooh i feel smart
Liter of cola
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