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Introduction
About myself:
I'm a ~1150 diamond protoss player on EU server. Not really good but I guess enough to have tested this strategy at a decent level.
This is a guide for a Protoss FE using sim city at the natural along with sentries to get an expansion up asap. Similar (but different) builds are quite popular at the moment at the pro level and work quite well, another thread for example is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=152940
The basic idea behind it is that sentries are great in confined spaces and zerg lack units with good range in tier 1 to really abuse your own wall-in. Sentries and stalkers are quite good against zerg later on so this transitions quite well into later game if it gets a macro game, better for example then a normal forge first FE which tends to be behind in tech alot.
Because it relies on a wall-in it obviously only works on maps where that is possible. Best maps for it are lost temple, metalopolis and steppes of war. Other maps like blistering sands and scrap station are also possible with some slight tweaks. At some maps it simply doesn't work such as desert oasis.
The build
+ Show Spoiler +
The basic outline is just a 1 gate-core opening. The buildings are made at the bottom of your ramp though so you can make a tight wall up to your nexus making it much easier to defend zerglings.
9 pylon (bottom ramp)
13 gateway (bottom ramp, probe making this scouts)
15 gas
16 pylon (on top of ramp, preferrably charging your gateway as well, leave this probe at bottom of ramp for building structures and possibly blocking the ramp)
18 cyber (part of wall-in)
19 zealot
22 2nd gas
22 pylon (part of wall-in)
24 sentry
24 research warpgate
Chronoboosts:
Use the first 2 chronoboosts on your nexus, then use 2 chronoboosts on your sentries and 3 on warpgate research. This will let warpgate tech finish at roughelt the same time as your 3rd sentry. (warpgate with 3x CB = 110 secs, 3x sentry with 2x CB = 106 secs)
At this point you are making sentries and have a wall-in up to the spot where your nexus will be.
Be sure to hide your scouting probe after you scout the pool timing. About 35 secs after the pool finishes you want to send that probe back in and scout if he expanded and/or what tech he got:
- 4 out of 5 times he will have expanded and just be going with lings early on.
In that scenario you want to put up your nexus asap (while making sentries and probes), this should be around 31 population. After the nexus is up immediately put up 2 more gateways that further solidify your wall in and continue with sentries/stalkers from your warpgates while also researching hallucination. Put a forge up somewhere after the 3rd gateway and get your 3rd and 4th gas up fast (gas is critical against Z)
- In the other cases the zerg will play more aggresive early
If you scout more aggresion usually seen by either a roach warren/baneling nest and no expansion you want to wait with your nexus and go with a forge and 2nd gateway first (again making your expansion more solid and keeping a good spot for a cannon). Against roaches continue with stalkers and against banelings continue with sentries. AFter you put up a cannon put down the nexus and research hallucination. Continue to make stalkers at this point.
After hallucination finishes you can send a few hallucinated phoenix to see whats up and transition from there.
Wall-ins
+ Show Spoiler +Here are some pictures of wall-ins on the maps where this strat is possible. The wall-ins all follow some basic premises:- The first pylon and gateway are made at the bottom of the ramp so they form a wall with 1 space to enter your base, this means that you can block the entrance with 1 probe/zealot against lings. You can still move out/in your base with any protoss unit (except archons) though. You can also seal the entrance completely with a forge/pylon which is usefull against a 6-pool. - The wall in leads to your nexus using that as part of the wall-in later, lings that want to go in your base will have to run around the nexus (or use a backdoor). Your sentries can be positioned at the bottom of your ramp, quite safe from lings and able to defend your buildings. Also your gateway units can be spawned inside the 'safe zone'. - The pylons are placed in such a safe way as possible while trying to use as few buildings as possible to reach the nexus, in some maps/spawning positions the pylons are safer then others but you can judge this yourself obviously. Easiest maps in order from easy to harder are LT, metalopolis, steppes of war, scrap station and blistering sands. The other maps I haven't found good wall-ins yet and don't recommend this strategy in this exact form. Steppes of war+ Show Spoiler +Metalopolis+ Show Spoiler +Lost temple+ Show Spoiler +Blistering sands+ Show Spoiler +Scrap station+ Show Spoiler +
Transition and threats
+ Show Spoiler +
After setting up the expo you can take lots of different tech paths. Generally massing stalkers while you scout with hallucinations is a good move, the stalkers keep the expo safe and help alot against mutalisks or roaches which are common responses from the zerg. Because of the mass of sentries you'll be having with lots of energy usually stalker/sentry will do well against any zerg early game combination.
The exact transitions depend on your playstyle and the map but this is usually what I use:
- If I scout a spire I throw up a stargate and go with phoenix, stalker, zealot. Eventually adding in colossi or HT depending on what he is making.
- If you see only a roach den going stalker + immortal is a good followup. If you see only a hydra den or roach + hydra then adding colossi and a few immortals is a good move.
Going with upgrades relatively fast is always important as well, 1 attack upgrade should always come first.
Possible threats you absolutely need to watch out for are a quick nydus worm or a quick drop. If he manages to get into your main you are in real trouble so put up pylons in your main so you can scout and kill a nydus worm in time or repel a drop in time (drops come alot slower then nydus worms).
Why not just Forge FE? Why not 10 Gate + forge into FE?
+ Show Spoiler +This is in my opinion better then a forge first expansion. This is because saturation kicks in really fast for protoss in sc2, by the time your forge finishes you will have 18 probes normally and workers on minerals after 16 work DRASTICALLY slower then the first 16. In other words delaying your gas for a faster expo is hardly advantageous as you won't mine alot more minerals... You can see the steep decline in efficiency of mineral workers here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MineralAlso a forge first expansion will be behind in tech alot which means it has to make more zealots generally. The sentry casting cost fits better in a early expansion style and early sentries will have lots of energy by midgame allowing for very good forcefield abuse. Also depending on what you scout you don't need to make a cannon all the time saving you money to push faster which is important if the zerg just allows you your expo and goes for a quick 3rd (possibly gold) himself. 10 gate builds will be severely nerfed by the zealot build time increase so you can't nearly put the same pressure on Z anymore. Also 10 gate usually requires a proxy which is more risky against a 6 pool as you cant completely wall yourself off in time then. It also doesn't work so well on 4 player maps and is also quite behind in tech compared to a fast sentry build.
Replays
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-150634.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-150638.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-149678.jpg)
Update 21-9
Added some extra pictures and some replays, will continue to add more replays when I get them.
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Good post. I mentioned this in the other thread you linked, but I used to use essentially this same opening quite a lot in PvZ, and I think it's almost safe. With good building placement and forcefields, you'll be able to stay alive against almost anything, but against a good player who FE's and makes a moderate number of early speedlings, I think you'll find that your low number of stalkers and sentries won't have enough DPS to shut down zergling harass. If Zerg plays smart, you'll find yourself losing probes at your natural without killing a corresponding numbers of zerglings.
That's just my experience tho. Others can chime in.
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Great post, would love some replays vs Z.
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On September 16 2010 01:55 kcdc wrote:
Good post. I mentioned this in the other thread you linked, but I used to use essentially this same opening quite a lot in PvZ, and I think it's almost safe. With good building placement and forcefields, you'll be able to stay alive against almost anything, but against a good player who FE's and makes a moderate number of early speedlings, I think you'll find that your low number of stalkers and sentries won't have enough DPS to shut down zergling harass. If Zerg plays smart, you'll find yourself losing probes at your natural without killing a corresponding numbers of zerglings.
That's just my experience tho. Others can chime in.
Well, he throws down a forge in quite a lot of his walls it seems. The forge itself isn't too much of an investment because you'll want the +1 attack upgrade fast, but one cannon should be able to negate most zergling harass. Are you talking about much earlier zerglings?
EDIT: Thinking about it, sentries go very well with FE builds; they're gas heavy and defensive.
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I just tried to wall on some of the maps you didn't mention, namely Scrap Station and Kulas Ravine. As it turns out, it's possible to wall off on both maps using only a Gateway, Cybernetics Core, and 2-4 Pylons. Is there some reason I'm unaware of which prevents this build from being used on these maps? Granted, you are susceptible to ling runbys for the first 3 minutes or so(greater space to cover), but after that you should be set with an adequate wall. On Scrap Station you will even have a complete wall untill you/your opponent takes down the destructible rocks.
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One.issue is if you expand your base out too far (like on scrap station), it leaves you vulnerable to drops in base or air harass combined with an attack from the front.
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Couldn't you position your units in front of the wall by the time that becomes a problem, and just deal with it like you would any other two prong attack?
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if he just attacked your walling buildings with speedlings, wouldnt that be problematic considering the the small number of units at hand?
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I tried this build vs Hard Zerg AI and was pwned by roaches. Can it be adjusted to counter roach pushes?
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You can't practice build orders vs AI (other then easy), higher level AI's cheat and get extra minerals and will just pump out early tier units.
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@ kcdc
Speedling harass is always a problem but these wall-ins make it alot easier to defend. First of all the only entry route through your main is past your expansion nexus meaning that you only have to defend that. If they are using mass speedlings to target your probes at the nexus you can forcefield to keep a part of them out (between geyser and nexus exactly fits 1 forcefield with 9 out of 10 geysers) and sentries actually do reasonable DPS. Sometimes you can't prevent losing probes but whenever zerg is putting substantial larvae into zerglings he is getting less drones himself.
Also you're putting up gateway #2 and #3 while the nexus is going up so by the time you are actually mining at your nexus you will have a fair number of sentry/stalker. Nevertheless it's smart to just maynard 5 probes at first and then waypoint both nexusses to your expo (this is most efficient as well), this way you can't lose too many early on to speedling harass.
FInally if he puts real effort into suiciding lings to kill probes you might think about counterpushing, stalker/sentry is quite good at taking down expo's afterall if you abuse his own ramp with forcefield.
Offcourse the pictures only include wall-ins for the first few buildings and give a idea for potential placement of a forge. Later on I usually put robo and more warpgates so the entire access to your expo can be blocked by 1 forcefield, as blink stalkers are a big part of my army regardless of what zerg does it's easy to get in/out into your own base anyway.
@odecey
Scrap station a wall of at the base of your ramp is indeed possible and you can create a small choke for both expo and main. The wall-in is more vulnerable early on though and I usually prefer voidray strats on that map. I'll probably add pictures for other maps where you can do similar builds but at first I only added the maps where I think this strat is very good on.
For kulas ravine I don't think you can comfortable protect the expo while preventing runby's except for relying on great sentry usage, at kulas you can just block the entrance to your main though and kill the rocks with your zealot and sentries (leaving 1 to guard). Gives quite a safe expo at roughly the same time as well. One potential problem I foresee with kulas ravine after the patch is that zerg can take the gold expo relatively safe but that is more a map issue (i think the gold needs some rocks for how far off it is situated.)
@ rebornlife
speedlings are notoriously weak against buildings and the weak buildings (=pylons) are defended or can only be attacked with a few lings. If they attack my buildings I just let them, if they are going to kill it you can forcefield for protection by the time they are about to get real low on health and then let shield regeneration do it's job. Zerg will lose far more in lings then you lose with your building.
@ aegon
Roaches have crappy range so stalkers situated behind your wall can shoot at the roaches when they try to hit your buildings (roach range: 3, stalkers range: 6). If you see quick roaches you just have to go stalkers faster. Possibly put down a 2nd gateway before getting the nexus then.
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If you are using a cyber core to block off your ramp how do you defend against early zerglings?
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I think you may set up a FE with this quite fast. but you dont put pressure on the Z early on and let him power. how is this any better than a 10gate forge FE?
Forge FE for example can be caught offguard by:
roach opening, fast muta, fast nydus worm, 6 pool etc. Because this build relies more on sentries then cannons all those problems are less problematic (against roaches you can switch to stalkers asap).
with a forge FE you get +1 very fast and put pressure on when Z is getting mutaling. you can hold off roach openings with your 1-2 cannons.
2gating seems also be stronger to set up an expansion because your zealots come out fast enough to deal garantueed damage.
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@ froghero
The first gateway and pylon form a wall that can be filled up with 1 zealot/probe. This can easily hold zergling pressure, scouting usually tells there won't be super fast lings though in which case it's safe to put down the cyber.
@ clickrush
a forge FE is also a fine opening but is quite inefficient because it doesnt get gas. Putting more then 16 workers on minerals so fast when you could be mining gas is just way more efficient. Also forge FE can defend anything but it's generally harder as you need really good scouting to see what the zerg is doing which gets hard quite fast. A forge FE also forces you to get a good number of zealots which in my opinion are a inefficient unit against zerg. I prefer going almost pure sentry/stalker. +1 timing attacks are nice but a good zerg can just counter with +1 carapace and hold the push with some good spine crawler placement.
Forge FE is just slightly less efficient imo. Also this build gets a reasonably fast forge as well most of the time which makes the +1 timing basically the same, a forge FE cant get +1 fast anyway because it gets gas so late (and needs to get warpgate first as well).
2 gating is a fine strat and possibly better on some maps like blistering sands. This will be nerfed hard with the upcoming patch though and even now I see good zerg just adapting with fast roaches in which case your mass zealots don't look so great anymore.
All in all it's very simple. Sentries are fantastic against zerg and they are a great gas outlet. I don't see a reason to NOT get them fast as they perfectly fit with expanding. You don't neccesarily need to include a fast wall this is just a variation of sentry expanding.
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Use the search function. A thread about this was made yesterday.
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GREAT post. Been seeing this used a lot in GSL and started using it myself on maps where Kiwi style forge play isn't possible.
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Great post. Thanks to you and kcdc, I'm getting all sorts of new ideas about Protoss FE. You guys should storm up a PvP FE (seems impossible).
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coltrane, I referenced the other thread in here but I found this was different enough to warrant it's own thread. Certainly as this has wall-in pictures etc whereas the other thread was just a rough sketch of a slightly different build.
@ wolf, i'm pretty sure a PvP FE is impossible. Colossi already rock the matchup and outrange cannons and negate forcefields so there is no defensive advantage to use. Only time I've seen expanding relatively early be possible in PvP is when its colossi vs colossi (as they are slow).
@ douillos, the forge FE is indeed weak at stopping a spine crawler rush (i've had it happen to me). With sentries you can just block out the good spine crawler spots for a while till you can get stalkers. If you invest more in units insttead of cannons for defense you can always sacrifice your expo and kill the zerg main.
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I like how the wall blocks baneling busts. I've been fast expanding in pvz for ages and I never figured out to make my pylon on the far side of the bottom of the ramp instead, so that the wall would be made exclusively of sturdy buildings. I had to place an awkwardly positioned 2nd pylon at the bottom of my ramp to wall with a zealot, thus not having any pylon power in my main to put gateways and tech buildings, but your building placement is cleaner. I also had to quit a few times because my first forge/gateway blocked my nexus spot XD "gg i messed up my building placement" *has left the game*
Since I don't have internet to test anything out, I have some questions.
How quickly can you get a +1 weapons zealot/sentry push, and is it necessary? When I went 15 nexus, I could punish double expoing zergs by hitting with around 8 zealots and 5 sentries leaving my base at 8:50-9:00 just as +1 weapons finished. What 15 nexus gains in economy, you make up for by having more units out earlier, so I'm wondering if zergs are able to pull off the 22 hatch 21 hatch response or 14 hatch "eco cheese" that they often try against my expo. If the threat of an early attack prevents the Zerg from using these eco cheeses, then I can see how you transition to mid-game without being forced to do some +1 timing push.
How can you deal with mass speedlings off of multiple hatcheries? You go stalker as a safety net while waiting to scout what the Zerg player is teching. In my experience, mass speedlings will let Zerg contain stalkers for a long time while they take a 3rd. Hiding their tech at their 3rd will let speedlings contain you even longer, as you are still cannot commit to colossi until you know whether mutas are coming.
How do you deal with a mass hydra all in, assuming you didn't get lucky with a 2nd scouting probe? You can't tech colossus blindly unless you know mutaling isn't coming, and if you wait for your observer to find their hydra den, your robotics bay is too late. Any scouting units you send to check for assimilator counts before obs can get sniped by speedlings.
These are mostly weaknesses I've found with my normal cannon-defended FE, that I would like to know how you deal with before I can test out your build.
edit: once I have internet I can try to find the adel vs huk replay to see how a PvP FE is done
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Thank you sir this is a great post and I plan on giving this a go!
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On September 17 2010 02:33 iamke55 wrote:
I like how the wall blocks baneling busts. I've been fast expanding in pvz for ages and I never figured out to make my pylon on the far side of the bottom of the ramp instead, so that the wall would be made exclusively of sturdy buildings. I had to place an awkwardly positioned 2nd pylon at the bottom of my ramp to wall with a zealot, thus not having any pylon power in my main to put gateways and tech buildings, but your building placement is cleaner. I also had to quit a few times because my first forge/gateway blocked my nexus spot XD "gg i messed up my building placement" *has left the game*
Since I don't have internet to test anything out, I have some questions.
How quickly can you get a +1 weapons zealot/sentry push, and is it necessary? When I went 15 nexus, I could punish double expoing zergs by hitting with around 8 zealots and 5 sentries leaving my base at 8:50-9:00 just as +1 weapons finished. What 15 nexus gains in economy, you make up for by having more units out earlier, so I'm wondering if zergs are able to pull off the 22 hatch 21 hatch response or 14 hatch "eco cheese" that they often try against my expo. If the threat of an early attack prevents the Zerg from using these eco cheeses, then I can see how you transition to mid-game without being forced to do some +1 timing push.
How can you deal with mass speedlings off of multiple hatcheries? You go stalker as a safety net while waiting to scout what the Zerg player is teching. In my experience, mass speedlings will let Zerg contain stalkers for a long time while they take a 3rd. Hiding their tech at their 3rd will let speedlings contain you even longer, as you are still cannot commit to colossi until you know whether mutas are coming.
How do you deal with a mass hydra all in, assuming you didn't get lucky with a 2nd scouting probe? You can't tech colossus blindly unless you know mutaling isn't coming, and if you wait for your observer to find their hydra den, your robotics bay is too late. Any scouting units you send to check for assimilator counts before obs can get sniped by speedlings.
These are mostly weaknesses I've found with my normal cannon-defended FE, that I would like to know how you deal with before I can test out your build.
edit: once I have internet I can try to find the adel vs huk replay to see how a PvP FE is done
You can get a forge right after or before the nexus that is not really a issue. THe build order of your buildings isn't really set in stone, it's just that you open with sentries which are always good (and great if full on energy which they usually are with this build) and CAN make a nexus without a forge/cannon if you want to (like against 14 hatch). I usually add the forge right after the nexus (blocking off a potential weak pylon in my build).
As for quick scouting hallucination is really the answer. It costs about the same as 1 observer and if you get it quickly after warpgate (and chrono it a few times) you can easily see what they are doing. Just send 2 hallucinated phoenix to the common places for their 3rd and also scout their tech, after that I usually go:
spire -> put down 1 stargate and go stalker/sentry/zealot/phoenix. Getting +2 attack quite quickly and usually blink.
hydra and/or roach -> put down robo bay. In case of roach some immortals otherwise fast colossi.
A hydra push usually isn't the biggest problem as they are really slow without a creep highway (which they usually won't have up to your base yet). And stalker/zealot is quite good against hydra if they are slow.
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I've been trying this build in practice matches and it seems like it can't withstand a 6pool. The positioning of the buildings at the bottom of the ramp instead of the top just gives the zerglings too much free space to hit everything. Tried defending a 6pool with this build 3 times in a row, including a Metalopolis cross-spawn, and still no luck. Any advice on this?
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Koreans do this all the time. It is definetaly a great build and thanks for the wallin pictures.
When the new patch comes out this will become increasingly popular as zealot pressure-> expand will be nerfed.
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Just bumping this thread because I updated it quite a bit.
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Hey i've been trying out this, do you put any pressure on the zerg at all after your expansion goes up? I find that turtling in your base until you get collosi/phoenix (tier3) is really really passive and would allow for the zerg to drone up too much.
Would it be possible to move you with your sentry/stalker force to put a little bit of pressure once your +1 is done? Would I die to mass zerglings if I move out with that force?
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This is a pretty good build. I've been grabbing fast +1 with my forge and started making zealots again after the expansion starts since I don't need to save minerals anymore. It makes for a nice little +1 zealot/sentry push that clobbers any greedy zerg who goes only lings.
I prefer forge FE since it is more economy, but this is probably a safer and less map dependent build.
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on blistering sands (and new desert oasis) I definitely prefer a complete wall-off, get my eco going and break my own stones later; it's much safer and doesn't really hurt you since you'd have to keep track of your stones anyways; especially if you spawn south your attak-path will be really smooth
EDIT: just re-checked your exact build order and now I'm quite sceptical.....I really don't see the point of putting the buildings down below;
you aren't getting a very quick expansion, an expansion at 31 is a pretty straight forward play; what I mean is, if you put down the nexus at 31 you need 2 more gateways+ pylons at this point; so why not simply get a forward pylon at this point and create a "new" wall while your nexus is warping in? economical zerg players won't have the units to kill the nexus and against 1-basing zerg I'd recommend getting 3 gates before expo anyways;
all this does NOT hold true if you indeed go for a "very" fast expansion at 19-21; in this case walling off below early does help you to hold off early ling-shenanigans; no offense, but I just don't see why you would want to expose you with buildings below if you don't plan on getting a FE at around 19-21....
in other words: I think the timings of your builds are really neat, but I simply don't think that you need to wall-off your expansion that early unless you get an FE around 19-21
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How does this opening work with a transition into six gate and then moving to 2 robo collossi?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/7636/steppesofwars.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/5476/losttemplew.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4127/blisteringsandss.jpg)
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