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I recently switched from Brood War over to SC2.
So as I started out playing SC2, I find myself losing about half my games in the bronze/silver divisions. I noticed my economy was usually better than theirs but I always seemed to lose a lot of the army engagements.
I play protoss and was wondering what is the ideal unit composition against each race as protoss.
So far...for protoss, I just mass stalkers, throw in a few zealots with some colossus. Pretty sure I need more than this.
For zerg, if they mass ling, I try to build colossus (but usually it never comes out in time) and if they switch to muta, I switch to phoenix. However, I don't know how to deal with roaches. The guides say immortals but I don't find them very effective. Is it because I don't have enough immortals or do I need a certain composition with them to make them effective?
Against terran, I really don't know what works. For marines, I use colossus and it seems to work. For marauders, even immortals don't seem to work. I also don't know how to deal with thors... maybe immortals?
I was D+ in brood war so I can do basic things like make sure to build stuff on time and micro a bit and macro. I've also read some guides for some build orders and such.
Help is appreciated. Thank you.
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I'm no expert but I cringe every time I see a P go colossus in PvT, and I have been cringing a lot watching the GSL. Mostly I think it's that triple m aren't that bad against colossi, and colossi are difficult to work with once terran gets a handful of vikings. And it aint hard to get a handful of vikings.
Storm is much better generally imo, plus you get legs on the way (a crucial PvT upgrade imo).
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Against a high number of roaches immortals are less effective, something you can try is to go stalker/sentry and use forcefield to take advantage of roach's 3 range
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If you have the better eco then just spend more money on units. I think for gateway units just get only a few sentries and more of the zealot/stalkers also dont forget upgrades.
Or perhaps in battle you arent getting a good surround? multiple hotkeys for your army maybe?
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On September 13 2010 14:54 Marcury wrote:
Against a high number of roaches immortals are less effective, something you can try is to go stalker/sentry and use forcefield to take advantage of roach's 3 range
lol what, immortals rape roaches as long as the numbers are proportionate.
if the zerg has 20 roaches you should have time to get 3-4 immortals.
its not like after the zerg reaches a certain number of roaches, immortals become less effective.
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I think that you just think too much in a "this unit is hard countered by that unit" way.
Do not underestimate zealots. They're necessary in most cases. Going mass stalker is going to get crushed by marauders, and suddenly if you throw a bunch of zealots in the mix it's a lot better.
Phoenix do lots of damage to mutas, but you have to have a handful of them for them to be effective, which is quite an investment.
About immortals, you can't just "only make immortals". Immortals just rape roaches, but they are Still made of paper if you're not careful. You need zealots and stalker to support them. Forcefield is your best friend as well.
About dealing with thors, a few Templars to feedback are always a good idea
Tl;dr think more about unit compositions more than counters.
Edited clarification
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Immortals destroy roachs, i think 1 immortal can take 3 roachs unmicroed.
3-4 in your army will help alot if there are roaches mixed in. The moment zerg sees immortal early/mid game they will usually reduce or altogether stop making roaches.
In BW usually unit composition was a bit simpler, the composition stays nearly the same just ratio changes. But in SC2 there more units that counter units so it really changes depending on your MU and what they are doing.
PVZ - Colo + stalker/zealot - or sstalker zealot/sentry templar
PVP Just get Colo and as many stalkers as you can with extra gas, and zealots. (unless your doing some timing push with 4 gate or such... its a colossus battle most of the time)
PVT - assuming terran is Marine and maruader, 1:1 stalker/zealots/sentry and immortals, add HT's later in the game. Colossus vs terran you sort of have to take them off guard, if they are prepared for it usually its tough. If you catch them off guard you can win the game of do enough damage/ get time to tech into HT's.
Those are very basic i suppose.
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Against terran you want to aim for 35%stalker 35%voidray and the rest HT and phoenix. This cannot be beaten by terran except in a fight with a lot of bunkers and turrets. Just don't let them contain you.
Against zerg, I guess it would be 30%archon 30%voidray 30%Colossi and 10% HT. I guess this would be extremely strong, but probably too unpractical to really ever get.
Heh, in both you could add o mothership I guess.
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i've been going mass zelot, stalker, sentry and have never lost a game vs zerg or toss, terran is a different matter because if the guy is somewhat competent at macro then your prob gonna have to get storms
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As Terran I seem to have the most trouble countering zealot sentry immortal into templar tech. With one gate and two gate robo builds, you can get out one or two immortals for early defense/pressure, and with good ffing plus charge that's coming along, you can destroy bioballs. Zealots do more damage then stalkers to everything, and don't take marauder bonus. Sure nothing in this composition shoots up but it works against 3rax openings and you obviously can warp in sentries for AA if needed later. Aside from anti-air though, I can't see why stalkers are used in PvT matchups (I suppose early few stalkers are good because you have few zealots that can be kited easily/no immortal out, but after marauders destroy them completely). Then again, I tend to charge up alot of ramps like a retard (sigh I just lost a game where I did that instead of accepting map control...)
Versus Zerg I really like toss who fast expand (alot of maps seem safe for toss do this on, because it only takes a few zealot + a well placed cannon to shut down zling/roaches) into collusi stalker sentry. Stalkers can FF those corrupter and are decent against roach with good forcefields (plus with robo out you can get one or two immortal). Just got to watch for Zergs who allin your FE (banelings, nydus your main). I saw Suggy do something along these lines though and he was just destroying zergs.
Then again with stargate opening into phoenix you shut down any muta play (5 or 6 phoenix that shoot while moving > any muta), can harass zerg (muta openings mean hydras aren't out/few; you can snipe queens and workers), and just in general be a badass by raping his overlords and picking up his shit. I guess it depends on what you see. Against hydra play collusi are the sexiest Protoss you'll ever meet, but you'll want to cheat on them if you see mutas incoming?
EDIT: I've not seen alot of templar tech openings versus Zerg. I guess it's because there's a good window where you don't have storm and they can just steamroll you, and most zerg get one overseer immediately after Lair is up to scout. Plus before you get the Amulet to warp in storm templars, what's one storm going to do a zerg with 12 larva stocked up. And once you enter midgame and put down your templar archives they're on 3base getting out ultras.
Don't play alot of P so I can't say mirror but it seems to be 3-4 gate race into collusi. In GSL some guy pulled a DT rush and won but his opponent (who opened robo) was so desperate to rush to collusi (cause who goes DT in PvP?!) that he didn't get obs out, and then go so flustered he attacked and let one dt rape his mineral line.
Most important is just playing alot. You'll see what works and you'll be able to know what they're going by what you scout early. Zerg with double gas early is probably muta. Toss cannoning their base? Probably voids coming (or dt's but that's LOL against any decent robo opening). Terran building a bunker at their ramp? 111 build. Terran building more then one rax at the start? Bioball inc. And my favorite - scout their base and see nothing? See gateway warping in corner of your base. FUUUUUUUUUUUUU. You'll see that and know what to build. The key is to have efficient builds. Don't build robo, stargate, and templar archives and then end up going straight gateways units (extreme but principle of building what you need is what I meant).
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On September 13 2010 18:41 s4m222 wrote:
Immortals destroy roachs, i think 1 immortal can take 3 roachs unmicroed.
1 immortal costs more resources than 3 roaches. :/
To the OP: There are only a few situations where you can a-move against an equal zerg or terran force. Protoss relies on positioning, micro, and nifty spells like forcefield.
For example, your stalkers will lose to marines... unless you kite.
Your zealots will lose to MM... unless you use guardian shield and corner them somewhere.
Your zealot/stalker/sentry army will lose to roach.... unless you forcefield them in half.
All of your balls with die to emp, unless you are really spread out, or feedback the ghosts first.
Gateway units will die to hydra/ling unbelievably fast unless you
a) forcefield your units for minimal surface area to prevent ling surround b) gs the damage from hydras and c) have charge on your zealots... even then, at critical mass you need templar/collossus
Notice the trend? Basically, your units are going to suck unless managed. So focus on flanking, catching his army out of position, using your sentry spells, and teching quickly to utility units.
Second, the concept of "forcing" is ridiculously important. If you let him build what he wants, he will generally kill you (this is my experience,anyway). Try to exploit the weaknesses of his build. Obvious choices are a quick void ray when you spot marauders. It doesn't mean you even need to commit to void, but he will be forced to make marines, and then you roll in with chargelots or a collossus and eat him for breakfast.
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The real problem with terran is the bioball. It's because of this why I think that high templar should be there in every matchup, some people just don't know how to counter them with terran.
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On September 13 2010 14:41 rsol wrote:
I'm no expert but I cringe every time I see a P go colossus in PvT, and I have been cringing a lot watching the GSL. Mostly I think it's that triple m aren't that bad against colossi, and colossi are difficult to work with once terran gets a handful of vikings. And it aint hard to get a handful of vikings.
Storm is much better generally imo, plus you get legs on the way (a crucial PvT upgrade imo). You're right, but the problem is that the threat of cloaked banshees restricts the Protoss to needing the Robo first. And once you've sunk that cost, it can be dangerous to take the time to go down a different tech path instead of continuing toward Colossi. That's why you often see Colossi -> Templar. The Colossi are temporarily good until Terran picks up Vikings, but they buy you the time to tech Templar.
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Whenever I make roaches, sometimes people make immortals and frankly you'd be better off with colossus. What I don't see is people getting void rays.
If you make colossi, i'm certainly not going to make hydras, because hydras suck. There's a good chance i'll make corruptors and go for roach corruptor. But void rays do fairly well against corruptors and you can support them with stalkers.
I guess I'm saying I'd like to see more P's transition from gateway colossus into gateway colossus void ray as the game progresses. (against roaches) If you think about this transition not only does it punish heavy roach usage and lack of AA but sets up to hard counter brood lords, which are usually the next step from roach/corruptor.
Templar aren't very effective against roaches. Right now i'm having massive success using roaches with flanks and burrow against colossus gateway armies. People seem to adjust by adding immortals, which usually reduces their colossus count.. and if you think about it hitting 3-4 roaches with a colossus beam will be more effective than hitting one roach for 50 damage. It just costs more gas.
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On September 14 2010 00:50 ToxNub wrote:
For example, your stalkers will lose to marines... unless you kite.
You can't kite marines. With marauders blasting your units to slow them down on top of stim outrunning you, it doesn't really work.
On September 14 2010 00:50 ToxNub wrote:
Your zealots will lose to MM... unless you use guardian shield and corner them somewhere.
Isn't this more of the terran's fault than it is the protoss microing well? Not only did the terran in this situation not attempt to EMP the sentries, but he also engaged in a clearly horrible area, while "corning" the marines is really just charging into them when they have no where to run.
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On September 14 2010 01:09 Dragonblood21 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 00:50 ToxNub wrote:
For example, your stalkers will lose to marines... unless you kite.
You can't kite marines. With marauders blasting your units to slow them down on top of stim outrunning you, it doesn't really work. Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 00:50 ToxNub wrote:
Your zealots will lose to MM... unless you use guardian shield and corner them somewhere.
Isn't this more of the terran's fault than it is the protoss microing well? Not only did the terran in this situation not attempt to EMP the sentries, but he also engaged in a clearly horrible area, while "corning" the marines is really just charging into them when they have no where to run.
Lol?
I said marines. I didn't say marauders. Wtf are you talking about?
Who said he had emp? Why are you making up stuff?
Look, if you're going to disagree with me, you at least have to argue with what I said, and not some fantasy you invented, that I did not in any way imply. I am giving the OP examples of scenarios where control and position is the difference between losing and winning. If you disagree that marines can be kited by stalkers, or that cornering bio is necessary to your success, then be my guest, otherwise try to stay on topic.
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I can only think of two MUs where it would be unheard of to use certain units in any matchup. That is... High Templar vs. Protoss... and warp prism vs. zerg.
As mentioned before this game in its present state is alot more dynamic than SC:BW. I think a better question is, "should should I open vs. each of these matchups" but even then you will get multiple answers. You can FE against anyone (except maybe protoss, but its not unheard of) or you can open air to force their army mix a little, and you can 4gate in any matchup. People have had mixed success with all of the basic openers so its just take your pick and do what you like best.
for me right now its:
PvT - Fast Expand or phoenix/VR type opener
PvZ - Fast Expand or phoenix (VR if I know theyre roaches and I think I can do some real damage)
PvP - 1 base -> robotics - > try not to die - > expand - > try not to die.
PvP is my worst matchup as you can but I dont have a good practice partner as P
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On September 14 2010 04:25 Jayrod wrote:
PvP - 1 base -> robotics - > try not to die - > expand - > try not to die.
PvP is my worst matchup as you can but I dont have a good practice partner as P
Second this notion. If you need a practice partner, let me know, because I have the same problem vs Protoss... seems like all I do is try not to die.
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On September 14 2010 02:04 ToxNub wrote:
Lol?
I said marines. I didn't say marauders. Wtf are you talking about?
Who said he had emp? Why are you making up stuff?
Look, if you're going to disagree with me, you at least have to argue with what I said, and not some fantasy you invented, that I did not in any way imply. I am giving the OP examples of scenarios where control and position is the difference between losing and winning. If you disagree that marines can be kited by stalkers, or that cornering bio is necessary to your success, then be my guest, otherwise try to stay on topic.
Right, because marines just always run around by themselves, without stim, without marauders, in the middle of the field, to get kited and die. "Wtf I am talking about" is your scenario wouldn't commonly happen due to other interferences. The only time stalkers would really be kiting marines would before marauders hit the field, similar to goons fighting marines against FD in BW.
Who said he didn't? You are writing a post to tell him how to win in a micro war without taking in any other factors of the game? That makes no sense. Especially when what I'm factoring in is an incredibly common unit to be on the field, even more so in that given scenario.
The examples you are giving this OP is as if you are placing these units in a box with no other outside interference whatsoever. I'm telling you that is the incorrect way of viewing it and when the OP tries to "kite marines with stalkers" he will find marauders and stim prevents him from doing that. If you really want to be useful, you should cover more detail in your posts.
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against lings zealot support is key because they can do a ton of damage to lings as long as not getting surrounded, then when collosus comes out it anihilates all lings with zeal support and maybe forcefields.
Roaches are armored so go for bonus damage. immortals take hits and deal mega damage to roaches but a healthy amount of stalkers deals with them very well especially if you can take advantage of range.
Mutalisks are countered by phoenix exponentially with micro but if that is off your tech path then stalkers(blink is helpful) and sentries(gs severly lowers damage) deal with mutas
against T bio chargelots a couple stalkers and as many HT or Collosus as can be produced for AoE damage sentries also support well with key ff and gs
T mech is harder but immobile. head on siege tanks will obliterate infantry and thors are hard to take down. Blink stalkers get in close fast help and chargelots so tanks shoot eachother.(not easy answer)
PvP you are the same so it is all about the scouting. if he is heavy zealot you want more collosus, if he is more stalkers immortals help alot. void ray is fragile to staklers as are phoenix if they sit still. In current state of mirror matchup composition will probably be similar so macro and game mechanics normally win
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On September 14 2010 05:06 Dragonblood21 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 02:04 ToxNub wrote:
Lol?
I said marines. I didn't say marauders. Wtf are you talking about?
Who said he had emp? Why are you making up stuff?
Look, if you're going to disagree with me, you at least have to argue with what I said, and not some fantasy you invented, that I did not in any way imply. I am giving the OP examples of scenarios where control and position is the difference between losing and winning. If you disagree that marines can be kited by stalkers, or that cornering bio is necessary to your success, then be my guest, otherwise try to stay on topic. Right, because marines just always run around by themselves, without stim, without marauders, in the middle of the field, to get kited and die. "Wtf I am talking about" is your scenario wouldn't commonly happen due to other interferences. The only time stalkers would really be kiting marines would before marauders hit the field, similar to goons fighting marines against FD in BW. Who said he didn't? You are writing a post to tell him how to win in a micro war without taking in any other factors of the game? That makes no sense. Especially when what I'm factoring in is an incredibly common unit to be on the field, even more so in that given scenario. The examples you are giving this OP is as if you are placing these units in a box with no other outside interference whatsoever. I'm telling you that is the incorrect way of viewing it and when the OP tries to "kite marines with stalkers" he will find marauders and stim prevents him from doing that. If you really want to be useful, you should cover more detail in your posts.
Your reading comprehension is massively failing here. I'm not giving micro tips, I am providing "examples of scenarios where control and position is the difference between losing and winning", as I've already said, repeatedly. If you cannot understand that sentence, then please at least spare me your useless replies, because I'm out of time for you.
Obviously the micro involved during mixed composition battles is more complicated, but in case you didn't notice, I'm not talking about those examples. I offer simple examples to prove a simple point: that position and micro can be just as important as composition. Once one has the micro down in the simple case, he can begin to apply more complex micro to a more complex case.
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I'm gonna try and give you what I can as a 500+ diamond protoss.
Zealot/stalker/sentry is the core of your army, always. These are you bread and butter units. I'll go into how to skew these ratios based on MU.
PvP: Default to slight skew towards zealots. Zealots tend to do well against stalkers, but only if the stalkers can't kite. You need some stalkers behind the zealots to punish kiting stalker. If you can trap the stalks with FF then your zeals will just eat them. Also, zealots are the best gateway unit against immortals.
Immortals are strong versus stalkers, so when they enter the field you need to try and match their immortal count, build more zealots, or build phoenixes to pick them off with graviton beam. I like using phoenixes myself, because they also deal with the natural tech progression from immortal to collosus.
Against collosus play, phoenixes are ok, but if you don't already have a gate you're better of with chargelots and blink stalkers. These let you mitigate the great range of an upgraded collosus. For cliff fighting, make sure you have vision so you can shoot/blink up.
The best answer to void rays IMO are blink stalkers.
PvZ: Zealots murder zerglings, roaches murder zealots, stalkers murder roaches, and zerglings murder stalkers. This is the basic counter system of PvZ early game. Once the zerg gets hydras, he can push back pretty much any gateway composition, so you need either collosi or HT to deal with hydra play.
Phoenixes and blink stalkers deal with mutas quite efficiently.
Against brood lords, phoenixes are a good option, and blink stalkers do alright too with some zeals there to deal with the broodlings. Immortals are your best answer to ultralisks.
PvT: Zealots are good against both marines and marauders if they can prevent kiting. Stalkers die to marauders alone. However, it is very hard to fight marauders without some stalker support, as their ranged attack is necessary to punish kiting. A well placed FF can also prevent kiting and allow your zealots to engage the T bio head-on, in which case they will win.
Collosi are good against a bio ball, but will fall to vikings very quickly. HT are the other solution to the bio ball, but are vulnerable to ghost feedback/snipe. This is why bio play is so hard to fight as protoss, the only real answer is to just play better.
Void rays can rock through massive tank lines, and phoenixes can be used to break up smaller tank lines with their grav beams. Chargelots are ok against tanks, stalkers will fall apart though, although blink can help them close the distance in some situations.
Final Note: Take all this with a grain of salt, I'm a mediocre diamond, not a pro.
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On September 14 2010 06:54 ToxNub wrote:
Your reading comprehension is massively failing here. I'm not giving micro tips, I am providing "examples of scenarios where control and position is the difference between losing and winning", as I've already said, repeatedly. If you cannot understand that sentence, then please at least spare me your useless replies, because I'm out of time for you.
Obviously the micro involved during mixed composition battles is more complicated, but in case you didn't notice, I'm not talking about those examples. I offer simple examples to prove a simple point: that position and micro can be just as important as composition. Once one has the micro down in the simple case, he can begin to apply more complex micro to a more complex case.
My reading comprehension is massively failing because I'm stating your "scenarios" don't ever exist, so your information doesn't matter? And also, you summed up what you should have said in the beginning right here "Obviously the micro involved during mixed composition battles is more complicated." How would the person reading your post, be aware at all of anything that can go wrong with what you said in your first post, unless you stated it in there? This was my whole point.
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After reading all the feedback about colossus being bad against terran: I kind of agree, because with a bioball they will most likely have a reactor on their starport to pump medivacs, so once they catch on that you got colossi, they can just mass vikings as a hard counter.
Wouldn't it be best to hallucinate colossi every time you engage? then after a while they will have invested many resources into vikings, while you teched up to HT
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Russian Federation1132 Posts
I would like to add some notes about PvZ:
Zealots actually do well vs Roaches if they are not kited, whether this is early game off creep or mid game with charge. Do get charge, it's crucial for PvZ (and PvT IMO). Zealots with charge deal much more damage.
To deal with early Roaches get Zealots + Stalkers (gotta assume that ratio have to depend on ling count, but IMO anyway u wanna have more Zealots).
Immortals also beat Roaches hardly but i prefer Templar tech to Robo tech since it lets you to get charge and storms (blink also if needed).
Hydras rape you if u haven't Colossi or High Templars with storms up. Since it's wellknown fact you need to plan teching to one of these units.
Mutas screws you very hard, u gotta have cannons, since if not - u can't push. To deal with mass muta you need storms. The best way imo to counter (or prevent) mutas is to go 2 Stargate into Phoenix right after applying early 2 Gateways pressure. Phoenix micro is quite intensive but grants you huge economic lead if your 2 Gate pressure was efficient (i have to say that if you fail hard with 2 Gates then you probably lose, atleast works for me, heh). It's obv that Z will unlikely go Mutas if you already have Phoenixes.
Infestors are very sick but i usualy have Templars to feedback them so it's not a big deal.
Broodlords gets pwned by blink Stalkers and Void Rays (the first one is far more often).
And Ultras are the pure pain and suffering. It works great to tank them with Zealots and Archons (which you will have since sometimesTemplars run OOM  ). Tanking them with Stalkers, Immortals and Colossi is a very bad idea.
Sentrys are OP, so add few of them into each composition u have, since there always be a possibility to effictively use FF and GS. And u need to have decent number of Zealots everytime.
Also, if you are asking about late-game comp i would have both Stroms and Colossi (anyway you need several observers), since it boosts effectiveness of your army and lowers the ammount of precise storms you have to land.
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EPT
