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On September 12 2010 20:00 L3g3nd_ wrote:
wait what? 48 drones per hatch (so does that mean 24 at that hatch?) and 24 on gas?
am i reading it wrong? or have i misunderstood something? cos there is no base with 8 gysers (though if there was thatd be fucking sweet)
You aren't reading it wrong. For constantly pumping mutas from 1 hatch with queen injection you really need 4 bases with fully saturated gas. Only 6 drones on mineral per base are enough. But you'd obviously need a little more drones for overlords obv.
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On September 12 2010 12:30 Fifthman wrote:
With a queen at 10 units/min:
It requires 12 drones per hatchery to constantly build Zerglings.
It requires 24 drones per hatchery to constantly build Overlords (although I don't see why anyone would want an overlord every 6 seconds -_-)
It requires 26 drones (20 on minerals, 6 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Roaches.
It requires 36 drones (24 on minerals, 12 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Hydras.
It requires 48 drones (24 on minerals, 24 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Mutas.
When you say "per minute", are you talking about game time or real time? Game time is sped up by 33% if i remember correctly.
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He's talking about game time.
Real time is 43.75% faster than game time(using faster game speed, of course), at least according to the editor.
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On September 12 2010 14:40 Fifthman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 14:14 Piousflea wrote:
A hatch+queen is 9 larva/minute, not 10. Injecting at exactly 40 seconds will cause you to lose one natural larva spawn because it interrupts the natural larva. Injecting at 45 seconds so that you don't lose a natural larva, you only get 9.3 larva/minute.
I'm not sure that's an issue on one base. On one base, it's not that hard to spawn the larvae and make something out of them before the natural larva comes out. Queen > V > Hatchery > S > RRRR takes two seconds at most.Wait, I'm an idiot. Will it stop the counter entirely? Or will it just check every 15 seconds? I've had lots of natural larvae spawn after a queen injection, so I'm not sure what's wrong there...
When the injected larvae spawn, it immediately resets the natural-larva timer to 15sec. The timer doesn't start again until the hatchery has 2 or less larva. (ie, you've used some of the larvae)
Try it out in game. No matter how quick you are at using up the larvae, a natural larva will never spawn within 15 game seconds (~10 real seconds) after the injected larva.
Therefore, the "10 larva per minute" rate is completely wrong.
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On September 12 2010 12:30 Fifthman wrote:
With a queen at 10 units/min:
It requires 12 drones per hatchery to constantly build Zerglings.
It requires 24 drones per hatchery to constantly build Overlords (although I don't see why anyone would want an overlord every 6 seconds -_-)
It requires 26 drones (20 on minerals, 6 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Roaches.
It requires 36 drones (24 on minerals, 12 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Hydras.
It requires 48 drones (24 on minerals, 24 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Mutas.
Damn looking at my replays I noticed I would stay around 9-12 drones on minerals per hatchery for most of my games. No wonder my zerg is still in platinum ;p
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On September 12 2010 23:24 Piousflea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 14:40 Fifthman wrote:On September 12 2010 14:14 Piousflea wrote:
A hatch+queen is 9 larva/minute, not 10. Injecting at exactly 40 seconds will cause you to lose one natural larva spawn because it interrupts the natural larva. Injecting at 45 seconds so that you don't lose a natural larva, you only get 9.3 larva/minute.
I'm not sure that's an issue on one base. On one base, it's not that hard to spawn the larvae and make something out of them before the natural larva comes out. Queen > V > Hatchery > S > RRRR takes two seconds at most.Wait, I'm an idiot. Will it stop the counter entirely? Or will it just check every 15 seconds? I've had lots of natural larvae spawn after a queen injection, so I'm not sure what's wrong there... When the injected larvae spawn, it immediately resets the natural-larva timer to 15sec. The timer doesn't start again until the hatchery has 2 or less larva. (ie, you've used some of the larvae) Try it out in game. No matter how quick you are at using up the larvae, a natural larva will never spawn within 15 game seconds (~10 real seconds) after the injected larva. Therefore, the "10 larva per minute" rate is completely wrong.
http://www.mediafire.com/?147513789lv4slf
Odd. Check 4:06.
4:06, natural larva spawns
4:21, natural larva spawns
4:30-4:33, injected larvae spawn
4:39, natural larva spawns
4:54, natural larva spawns.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but that's not a 15 second interruption. It is a 3 second interruption, though.
So spawning larvae pauses the natural larvae clock?
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On September 12 2010 14:40 Fifthman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 14:14 Piousflea wrote:
A hatch+queen is 9 larva/minute, not 10. Injecting at exactly 40 seconds will cause you to lose one natural larva spawn because it interrupts the natural larva. Injecting at 45 seconds so that you don't lose a natural larva, you only get 9.3 larva/minute.
I'm not sure that's an issue on one base. On one base, it's not that hard to spawn the larvae and make something out of them before the natural larva comes out. Queen > V > Hatchery > S > RRRR takes two seconds at most.Wait, I'm an idiot. Will it stop the counter entirely? Or will it just check every 15 seconds? I've had lots of natural larvae spawn after a queen injection, so I'm not sure what's wrong there...
I've tested this. It pauses the counter, it doesn't reset it.
Say you get a larva every 15 seconds, and you spawn larva with your queen at time t=0, and you immediately morph your larva into something when they spawn.
At t=15 you get one larva.
At t=30 you get one larva.
At t=40 you get 4 larva that kind of pop out sequentially.
At t=45 you get one larva.
Now, if you are not a computer, and it takes you a bit of time to morph stuff, say it takes about 1 second for you to get around to morphing your larva and 2 seconds to morph your queens larva.
At t=15 you get one larva.
At t=30 you get one larva.
At t=40 you get 4 larva, capping you and pausing larva production.
At t=42 you bring the larva count under 3.
At t=47 you get one larva.
In general though, if you're quick about it, since the larva pop out one at a time, if you morph the first two larva before the last two pop out, you won't even pause larva generation at your base. If you do though, you'll lose however much time it takes you to spawn them, not force it to reset to 15 seconds again.
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The delay will still affect the unit production rate, if only slightly... it's 4 larvae every 63 seconds now. I'll go edit the OP.
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Thank you very much for this thread 
Very nice to keep those numbers in mind for the mid/late game when you want to mass unit.
Moreover that really show that zerg need a lot of expansion and gas.
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48 drones per hatch/base doesn't make sense. Do you mean 48 in total spread around multiple expos?
A SC2 base will become saturated with workers at 30 (iirc). Any more than that is a waste of time and resources.
Which kinda sucks since Broodwar bases were saturated at 19.
We need 11 extra wokers at the same cost :/
I do like this idea of finding some specific numbers to work by, though. I'm finding it very difficult to balance droning up with unit production.
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On September 21 2010 01:38 Shekhinah wrote:
48 drones per hatch/base doesn't make sense. Do you mean 48 in total spread around multiple expos?
A SC2 base will become saturated with workers at 30 (iirc). Any more than that is a waste of time and resources.
Which kinda sucks since Broodwar bases were saturated at 19.
We need 11 extra wokers at the same cost :/
I do like this idea of finding some specific numbers to work by, though. I'm finding it very difficult to balance droning up with unit production.
you're not understanding what these numbers are
to make mutalisks constantly from one hatchery (with a queen) takes 900 minerals and 900 gas (not counting overlords)
to support that income, you need about 23 or 24 drones on minerals (over at least 12 patches) and as many on gas (over 8 geysers obviously)
in short, this isn't a useful way to think about mutalisk production
the concept applies to low econ openings and situation in order to know minimum workers to sustain army production
things were different in broodwar because the income from a base supported the production from more than one hatchery
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EPT
