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I was reading the Liquipedia Brood War Zerg Strategy article when I came across the "5 drone rule":
+ Show Spoiler +The "5 Drone Rule": Once Zerg knows how many Hatcheries to build, the next question is how many Drones to build. A rule of thumb is roughly five drones per Hatchery. For a Hatchery to constantly pump Zerglings, 3 Drones on Minerals are required. To constantly pump Hydras, the Zerg player will need 5 Drones on Minerals and 2 Drones on Gas per Hatchery. Mutas require 5 Drones on Minerals and 3 Drones on gas per Hatchery. Thus, in a typical game, it is a good rule of thumb to plan for 5 Drones per Hatchery.
With SC2, though, we have Queens, and Queens allow us to greatly increase our unit production from 4 units/min without a Queen to 10 units/min with one. Seeing as how we don't have a 5 drone rule in SC2, I went ahead, played with the numbers, and mucked about vs. a very easy AI to find the optimum number of drones per hatchery.
Without a queen at 4 units/min:
It requires 5 drones per hatchery to constantly build Zerglings or Drones.
It requires 8 drones per hatchery to constantly build Overlords.
It requires 11 drones (8 on minerals, 3 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Roaches.
It requires 16 drones (10 on minerals, 6 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Hydras.
It requires 22 drones (10 on minerals, 12 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Mutas.
With a queen at 9.8 units/min: (not quite 10 units/min because of spawn larvae 3 second delay)
It requires 12 drones per hatchery to constantly build Zerglings.
It requires 24 drones per hatchery to constantly build Overlords (although I don't see why anyone would want an overlord every 6 seconds -_-)
It requires 26 drones (20 on minerals, 6 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Roaches.
It requires 36 drones (24 on minerals, 12 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Hydras.
It requires 48 drones (24 on minerals, 24 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Mutas.
Comparing building times from other races:
A Nexus or Command Center trains nearly 4 workers per minute.
A Barracks trains just over 2 Marines a minute, and exactly 2 Marauders per minute.
A Starport builds about 1.5 Vikings/Medivacs every minute.
A Warpgate can warp in 2 Zealots or Stalkers every minute.
A Stargate warps in 1 Void Ray every minute.
Comparing builds from other races:
3 Barracks + CC builds about 10 units/min.
4 Warpgate + Nexus builds about 11 units/min.
I have data, but I'm having problems applying the results. Can anyone help?
Edit: First Opinions
First, thanks for all the help so far, you guys are the greatest. Sadly, I don't think this will end in a nice and easy "X Drone Rule." In Brood War we could say 8 drones can support one hatchery constantly producing mutalisks. That's not going to happen in SC2, because it takes 22(!) workers to support Mutalisk production, even without a queen!
However, that doesn't change the fact that Zerg production, especially in the early game, is more dependent on Larvae production than any other factor. Obvious, I understand, but by knowing these numbers, we can use scouting information to determine the amount of hatcheries/queens needed to match our opponent's build rate at a given tech level.
I'll keep adding more as we compile more data and discussion.
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I think it applies to late game when you have upwards of 5 expansions and you can't feasibly have 22 drones at each base.
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It seems like zerg needs alot more drones in this game to keep up in macro in this game but that might be because the general flow of Sc2 feels alot faster.
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This is a good number to plan builds around. Any more drones than this number is superfluous as long as your macro stays strong.
This will most help with all-in builds, namely all-in speedlings and roaches.
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might want to adjust the numbers for ovies
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did you include the cost of overlords?
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Yeah but overlords won't add that much of a difference I'm guessing because they provide adecent number of supply.
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I didn't include the cost of overlords. When you're constantly producing hydras/mutas, you'll just end up with a bit of extra gas every time you spend a larvae on an OL instead of a hydra or muta, and that extra bit of gas will probably go to upgrades.
It does become an issue with the lower tech, though. Keep in mind that a hydra costs 100 minerals, so we can use that in the meantime.
Also, if you can, can you check the numbers? The numbers make sense on paper, and I was able to keep the minerals even in game, but I'd like to make sure the numbers are repeatable.
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Looks like zergs really do want 6-8 geysers at their disposal, especially for muta builds.
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A hatch+queen is 9 larva/minute, not 10. Injecting at exactly 40 seconds will cause you to lose one natural larva spawn because it interrupts the natural larva. Injecting at 45 seconds so that you don't lose a natural larva, you only get 9.3 larva/minute.
Assuming 9 larva/minute (8 pairs of zerglings and 1 overlord), you need 500 minerals/minute for maximal 1-hatch zerglings. This takes 13 drones.
With one fully saturated gas (approx 112 gas/min) you can only afford to morph 4 banelings per minute. This increases your resources needed to 600/100 per minute. This means that optimal 1 base ling/bane requires 15 drones on minerals and 3 drones on gas (18 drones total). With more drones on minerals you can expand while keeping maximal ling/bane production.
Hydras and mutas are so expensive, larvae should not be the issue. More bases and more drones = more hydras/mutas.
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Someone ran this exact same test about a month ago, coming up with almost exactly the same results as you have.
When I play Zerg, I always have ridiculous resource surplusses late game, even with a near-maxed army. I like to have lots of resources (especially gas) in store so I can make dramatic tech switches easier.
Also, don't forget to factor in supply and producing overlords into your calculations.
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On September 12 2010 14:14 Piousflea wrote:
A hatch+queen is 9 larva/minute, not 10. Injecting at exactly 40 seconds will cause you to lose one natural larva spawn because it interrupts the natural larva. Injecting at 45 seconds so that you don't lose a natural larva, you only get 9.3 larva/minute.
I'm not sure that's an issue on one base. On one base, it's not that hard to spawn the larvae and make something out of them before the natural larva comes out. Queen > V > Hatchery > S > RRRR takes two seconds at most.
Wait, I'm an idiot.
Will it stop the counter entirely? Or will it just check every 15 seconds? I've had lots of natural larvae spawn after a queen injection, so I'm not sure what's wrong there...
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This isn't the solid final product of a post, since you there are some factors like time/overlords that you could include.
But I love the idea of having a set number for perfect unit macro. Keep grinding numbers
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I don't get the 24 on gas and 24 on minerals per hatchery.
You mean for 1 hatchery to produce 10 mutas per min, exempt ovie, you need basically 4 bases (8 gas, 1 & 1/2 mineral saturation)
EDIT: yea forget my question I'm stupid before10 AM
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I'm not very sure I understand this. so if I want to constantly make zerglings off one hatch + queen, I need to have only 5 drones on minerals?
So that means if I took my initial 6 drones, made a spawning pool and got a queen, from then on those 5 drones would be able to give me enough resources to always make zerglings with all my larva?
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On September 12 2010 12:30 Fifthman wrote:I was reading the Liquipedia Brood War Zerg Strategy article when I came across the "5 drone rule": + Show Spoiler +The "5 Drone Rule": Once Zerg knows how many Hatcheries to build, the next question is how many Drones to build. A rule of thumb is roughly five drones per Hatchery. For a Hatchery to constantly pump Zerglings, 3 Drones on Minerals are required. To constantly pump Hydras, the Zerg player will need 5 Drones on Minerals and 2 Drones on Gas per Hatchery. Mutas require 5 Drones on Minerals and 3 Drones on gas per Hatchery. Thus, in a typical game, it is a good rule of thumb to plan for 5 Drones per Hatchery. With SC2, though, we have Queens, and Queens allow us to greatly increase our unit production from 4 units/min without a Queen to 10 units/min with one. Seeing as how we don't have a 5 drone rule in SC2, I went ahead, played with the numbers, and mucked about vs. a very easy AI to find the optimum number of drones per hatchery. Without a queen at 4 units/min: It requires 5 drones per hatchery to constantly build Zerglings or Drones. It requires 8 drones per hatchery to constantly build Overlords. It requires 11 drones (8 on minerals, 3 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Roaches. It requires 16 drones (10 on minerals, 6 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Hydras. It requires 22 drones (10 on minerals, 12 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Mutas. With a queen at 10 units/min: It requires 12 drones per hatchery to constantly build Zerglings. It requires 26 drones (20 on minerals, 6 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Roaches. It requires 36 drones (24 on minerals, 12 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Hydras. It requires 48 drones (24 on minerals, 24 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Mutas. Comparing builds from other races: 3 Barracks + CC builds about 10 units/min. 4 Warpgate + Nexus builds about 11 units/min. I have data, but I'm having problems applying the results. Can anyone help?
wait what? 48 drones per hatch (so does that mean 24 at that hatch?) and 24 on gas?
am i reading it wrong? or have i misunderstood something? cos there is no base with 8 gysers (though if there was thatd be fucking sweet)
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I messed around with this earlier:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=139351
Larva really isn't the same factor it was in BW. Unless i'm going heavy ling i rarely worry about the amount of hatches im going to need. This stuff does come in useful in creating builds and knowing when to start and stop unit pumps though.
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This is so informative. Now I know exactly (Before I just had a hunch) how many drones I need for for instance 2hatch Hydra <3 I love you.
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On September 12 2010 12:33 SC2Phoenix wrote:
It seems like zerg needs alot more drones in this game to keep up in macro in this game but that might be because the general flow of Sc2 feels alot faster.
or might be because you can produce drones quicker..?
the reason is is because toss = chrono probes and terran mules, rather simple really.
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On September 12 2010 20:00 L3g3nd_ wrote:
wait what? 48 drones per hatch (so does that mean 24 at that hatch?) and 24 on gas?
am i reading it wrong? or have i misunderstood something? cos there is no base with 8 gysers (though if there was thatd be fucking sweet)
You aren't reading it wrong. For constantly pumping mutas from 1 hatch with queen injection you really need 4 bases with fully saturated gas. Only 6 drones on mineral per base are enough. But you'd obviously need a little more drones for overlords obv.
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On September 12 2010 12:30 Fifthman wrote:
With a queen at 10 units/min:
It requires 12 drones per hatchery to constantly build Zerglings.
It requires 24 drones per hatchery to constantly build Overlords (although I don't see why anyone would want an overlord every 6 seconds -_-)
It requires 26 drones (20 on minerals, 6 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Roaches.
It requires 36 drones (24 on minerals, 12 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Hydras.
It requires 48 drones (24 on minerals, 24 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Mutas.
When you say "per minute", are you talking about game time or real time? Game time is sped up by 33% if i remember correctly.
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He's talking about game time.
Real time is 43.75% faster than game time(using faster game speed, of course), at least according to the editor.
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On September 12 2010 14:40 Fifthman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 14:14 Piousflea wrote:
A hatch+queen is 9 larva/minute, not 10. Injecting at exactly 40 seconds will cause you to lose one natural larva spawn because it interrupts the natural larva. Injecting at 45 seconds so that you don't lose a natural larva, you only get 9.3 larva/minute.
I'm not sure that's an issue on one base. On one base, it's not that hard to spawn the larvae and make something out of them before the natural larva comes out. Queen > V > Hatchery > S > RRRR takes two seconds at most.Wait, I'm an idiot. Will it stop the counter entirely? Or will it just check every 15 seconds? I've had lots of natural larvae spawn after a queen injection, so I'm not sure what's wrong there...
When the injected larvae spawn, it immediately resets the natural-larva timer to 15sec. The timer doesn't start again until the hatchery has 2 or less larva. (ie, you've used some of the larvae)
Try it out in game. No matter how quick you are at using up the larvae, a natural larva will never spawn within 15 game seconds (~10 real seconds) after the injected larva.
Therefore, the "10 larva per minute" rate is completely wrong.
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On September 12 2010 12:30 Fifthman wrote:
With a queen at 10 units/min:
It requires 12 drones per hatchery to constantly build Zerglings.
It requires 24 drones per hatchery to constantly build Overlords (although I don't see why anyone would want an overlord every 6 seconds -_-)
It requires 26 drones (20 on minerals, 6 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Roaches.
It requires 36 drones (24 on minerals, 12 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Hydras.
It requires 48 drones (24 on minerals, 24 on gas) per hatchery to constantly build Mutas.
Damn looking at my replays I noticed I would stay around 9-12 drones on minerals per hatchery for most of my games. No wonder my zerg is still in platinum ;p
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On September 12 2010 23:24 Piousflea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 14:40 Fifthman wrote:On September 12 2010 14:14 Piousflea wrote:
A hatch+queen is 9 larva/minute, not 10. Injecting at exactly 40 seconds will cause you to lose one natural larva spawn because it interrupts the natural larva. Injecting at 45 seconds so that you don't lose a natural larva, you only get 9.3 larva/minute.
I'm not sure that's an issue on one base. On one base, it's not that hard to spawn the larvae and make something out of them before the natural larva comes out. Queen > V > Hatchery > S > RRRR takes two seconds at most.Wait, I'm an idiot. Will it stop the counter entirely? Or will it just check every 15 seconds? I've had lots of natural larvae spawn after a queen injection, so I'm not sure what's wrong there... When the injected larvae spawn, it immediately resets the natural-larva timer to 15sec. The timer doesn't start again until the hatchery has 2 or less larva. (ie, you've used some of the larvae) Try it out in game. No matter how quick you are at using up the larvae, a natural larva will never spawn within 15 game seconds (~10 real seconds) after the injected larva. Therefore, the "10 larva per minute" rate is completely wrong.
http://www.mediafire.com/?147513789lv4slf
Odd. Check 4:06.
4:06, natural larva spawns
4:21, natural larva spawns
4:30-4:33, injected larvae spawn
4:39, natural larva spawns
4:54, natural larva spawns.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but that's not a 15 second interruption. It is a 3 second interruption, though.
So spawning larvae pauses the natural larvae clock?
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On September 12 2010 14:40 Fifthman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 14:14 Piousflea wrote:
A hatch+queen is 9 larva/minute, not 10. Injecting at exactly 40 seconds will cause you to lose one natural larva spawn because it interrupts the natural larva. Injecting at 45 seconds so that you don't lose a natural larva, you only get 9.3 larva/minute.
I'm not sure that's an issue on one base. On one base, it's not that hard to spawn the larvae and make something out of them before the natural larva comes out. Queen > V > Hatchery > S > RRRR takes two seconds at most.Wait, I'm an idiot. Will it stop the counter entirely? Or will it just check every 15 seconds? I've had lots of natural larvae spawn after a queen injection, so I'm not sure what's wrong there...
I've tested this. It pauses the counter, it doesn't reset it.
Say you get a larva every 15 seconds, and you spawn larva with your queen at time t=0, and you immediately morph your larva into something when they spawn.
At t=15 you get one larva.
At t=30 you get one larva.
At t=40 you get 4 larva that kind of pop out sequentially.
At t=45 you get one larva.
Now, if you are not a computer, and it takes you a bit of time to morph stuff, say it takes about 1 second for you to get around to morphing your larva and 2 seconds to morph your queens larva.
At t=15 you get one larva.
At t=30 you get one larva.
At t=40 you get 4 larva, capping you and pausing larva production.
At t=42 you bring the larva count under 3.
At t=47 you get one larva.
In general though, if you're quick about it, since the larva pop out one at a time, if you morph the first two larva before the last two pop out, you won't even pause larva generation at your base. If you do though, you'll lose however much time it takes you to spawn them, not force it to reset to 15 seconds again.
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The delay will still affect the unit production rate, if only slightly... it's 4 larvae every 63 seconds now. I'll go edit the OP.
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Thank you very much for this thread 
Very nice to keep those numbers in mind for the mid/late game when you want to mass unit.
Moreover that really show that zerg need a lot of expansion and gas.
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48 drones per hatch/base doesn't make sense. Do you mean 48 in total spread around multiple expos?
A SC2 base will become saturated with workers at 30 (iirc). Any more than that is a waste of time and resources.
Which kinda sucks since Broodwar bases were saturated at 19.
We need 11 extra wokers at the same cost :/
I do like this idea of finding some specific numbers to work by, though. I'm finding it very difficult to balance droning up with unit production.
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On September 21 2010 01:38 Shekhinah wrote:
48 drones per hatch/base doesn't make sense. Do you mean 48 in total spread around multiple expos?
A SC2 base will become saturated with workers at 30 (iirc). Any more than that is a waste of time and resources.
Which kinda sucks since Broodwar bases were saturated at 19.
We need 11 extra wokers at the same cost :/
I do like this idea of finding some specific numbers to work by, though. I'm finding it very difficult to balance droning up with unit production.
you're not understanding what these numbers are
to make mutalisks constantly from one hatchery (with a queen) takes 900 minerals and 900 gas (not counting overlords)
to support that income, you need about 23 or 24 drones on minerals (over at least 12 patches) and as many on gas (over 8 geysers obviously)
in short, this isn't a useful way to think about mutalisk production
the concept applies to low econ openings and situation in order to know minimum workers to sustain army production
things were different in broodwar because the income from a base supported the production from more than one hatchery
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EPT
