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here are the theories around this build
1) the starting 2 gateway with chrono boosted zealots + stalker should counter korean 4gate zealot only attack because you have zeals and stalkers being made and you kill his probe in your base with your stalker and you start working on killing his pylons. you kill his pylons in your base with zeals/stalker and even if you cant get all the pylons your 2gates with chrono should match his 4 because he had to cut a bit of econ to do it. after you beat his initial 4gate rush you get up the void rays and immortals and block your choke with a zealot. you stopped his rush, play game normally
2) 1robo pumping immortals 1stargate pumping voids 2gateways pumping zealots should be able to beat back a nonkorean 4gate or 5gate attack. when you scout him going 4gate or 5gate then you park your army far outside your base and wait for him to start coming. as he drops force fields you pull back and you still have room to fight. as you are massing voids and immortals and hes getting sentries for force field eventually you can win in the end because the sentries cost so much gas it leaves him with less stalkers. if your enemy went 5gate, even though he has 5 structures vs your 4 it doesnt matter because your robo and stargate produce beffier units and are stronger than a single gateway in production ability.
your army should be superior to sentry/zealot/stalker as long as he doesnt pull off super good force fields. if he pulls off super good force fields then all of your zealots can become worthless. so make sure to only engage when its in your favor and run away if he force fields really well
3) you drop your pylon at 9 and scout quickly with that first probe to see if your enemy proxied in your base. if your enemy dropped his first pylon in your base it means hes going proxy gate and you can drop two gateways at 10 to beat his proxy since yours will be slightly faster
4) if your enemy is going 2 gateways outside your base in a way you cant really scout it in time, by the time you scout your enemies base you should see he has no gateways and this build by default blocks the choke with chronoboosted zealot so your slightly slower 2gate should beat his 2gate zealot pressure if you get out 1-2 stalkers asap. when you scout your enemy with no gateways in his base that means you should cut 1-2 probes to get out slightly more combat units
5) 2 gateways inside your base can only really be countered with a 9pylon 10gate 10gate. 2 fast gateways outside your base can be countered with the 12gate, chronoboosted zealots, block choke, 18cyber 18gateway. stop mining gas after you get 100 gas, chrono out zealots and 2 stalkers
6) you wanna keep scouting to see if your enemy has a immortal or a robo. if you see your enemy with a immortal or robo then it means you should get up a second stargate and pump out mass voidrays / zealots. stay with 2-1-1 if your enemy is putting on heavy 4gate pressure
7) do not upgrade warpgates. why? because you only have 2 gateways just for zealots. chronoboost on the gateways will give you ok zealot numbers. warpgate is 50/50 and it wouldnt give you more production than simply adding on a third gateway. however you dont even want a third gateway. two gateways is all the production you need without warpgate. a saturated base with 27 workers produces 700 minerals and 250 gas a minute. thats enough for 2 zealots, 1 immortal, and 1 void ray every minute. your enemy can get 5 stalkers and 75 minerals.
multiply this by 4 and it would be 20 stalkers and 3 zealots(300 minerals) for that price VS 4 immortals 4 void rays and 8 zealots. i really believe 4immortals 4void rays and 8 zealots can win with proper micro.
technically i guess, the army with immortals and void rays costs 200 extra gas because your enemy went 50 (for warpgate) and you went 250 for stargate / robo. so that just means in the grand scheme of things you have to produce a few more zealots early game
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heres a example build
9pylon (at choke)
12gateway (at choke assuming you didnt scout your enemy making his pylon inside your base) scout with this probe
14gas
15pylon
stop making probes at 16. gateway finishes build zealot and chronoboost it asap
18cyber core once you get enough minerals then continue drone production
your first 3 units out of the gateway are zealot, zealot, stalker. chronoboost them all. when stalker comes out use it to kill probes in your base. this counters korean 4gate
at about 25 food make second gateway
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EDIT: the above build might not be the best to go about doing 2-1-1. you can easily use your first 3 chronoboosts on your nexus for strong economy, or use less and put them on gateways for faster troops. everyone should experiment themselves but i honestly dont know the best way to start off doing a 2-1-1 i guess just scout your enemy and if he 2gates you want a faster second gateway obviously. soo yeah the idea of the build is to work your way up to 2-1-1 but you wanna do it safely.
i like to use my first chronoboost on my nexus and then i use all future chronoboosts on my first gateway so i can pump out the most i can from it early while pumping probes. then chronoboosts are used on stargates usually once i get it up
your next 3 units to come out of the gateway are usually stalker zealot zealot. i never like to get more than 3-5 stalkers the entire game as i think they are cost ineffective units in PvP. by the time you get up robo stargate you should have 3-5 stalkers and after that your gateways are just for zealots and you pump out anti stalker units from the robo stargate
at this point you want to scout desperately to find out if/when your enemy makes a robo. in the replays i used a void ray to scout out a robo which is an option. HOWEVER using the voidray to scout would be dangerous against stargate first builds from your enemy since his pheonix or void would kill your scouting void
the reason you want to scout his robo is because the moment you see him with a robo (or a immortal) then you immediately want to make a second stargate and pump out more voids. if he stays on 4gate then you stay on 2-1-1 because immortal/void/zealot beats his 4gate. but if he goes for robo then that gives you time to get up a second stargate. if you see your enemy with a robo you want to spend all your gas on void rays because if you keep making immortals your army will die to collossi. but void rays / zlot will beat stalker collossi
DO NOT MAKE AN OBSERVER. you spent 250gas on robo/star and you need all the gas you can get for immortals and voidrays.
if you see a dark templar then you immediately chronoboost out a observer while running your probes / army around. then attack since you should win since he spent so much gas on DT's
i think zealot / immortal / void ray army can defeat mass stalker but it comes down to micro
in battle you want to avoid bad force fields by retreating and picking smart fights. and also in battle i keep all my void rays in group 2 or 3 then my stalkers / zeals / immortals in group 1 or something. in battle if your enemy microes his stalkers back then you gotta pull back your zealots to your army because the stalkers could kite the zealots
also if your enemy stays in battle to fight you want to select 2 void rays and have them target a full health nearby stalker. do this to hopefully get them charged and then select immortals and make immortals focus the stalkers
i am 1000 diamond toss. as i get higher in diamond i will face better protoss players and i will provide replays
http://screplays.com/replays/taketobreak/8079
http://screplays.com/replays/taketobreak/8081
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Robo/stargate builds are nothing new. I've been doing immortal/void ray timing attacks for a long time now.
There is no set build order for this. You have to react to what you see to defend early aggression.
However, from my experience the best way to set up for a timing attack is to get a fast robo. This allows you to save gas because you will not need stalkers once your first immortal is out. With extra gas you can build an observer, some sentries, and a stargate.
The timing push that follows is extremely powerful. Zealots are very cost effective and will dominate the other gateway units, immortals quickly take down the only real threat to your void rays (stalkers), and once your void rays are charged, there is almost nothing your opponent can do to stop them.
I'm an 1100 toss and have not seen anyone effectively stop this yet.
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On September 08 2010 15:31 lasershark wrote:
Robo/stargate builds are nothing new. I've been doing immortal/void ray timing attacks for a long time now.
There is no set build order for this. You have to react to what you see to defend early aggression.
However, from my experience the best way to set up for a timing attack is to get a fast robo. This allows you to save gas because you will not need stalkers once your first immortal is out. With extra gas you can build an observer, some sentries, and a stargate.
The timing push that follows is extremely powerful. Zealots are very cost effective and will dominate the other gateway units, immortals quickly take down the only real threat to your void rays (stalkers), and once your void rays are charged, there is almost nothing your opponent can do to stop them.
I'm an 1100 toss and have not seen anyone effectively stop this yet.
you are right. robo first may be better since the first immortal is better than the first void ray
i still would prefer mass void ray zlot against any toss that gets a collossi. its just what i found to work. i use 2-1-1 and if i scout my enemy with his own robo i get another stargate and get as much voids zlots as i can
On September 08 2010 15:39 Izzy2011 wrote:Can you upload to a site that doesn't require a login? http://replayfu.com/
http://replayfu.com/r/ZJJp1
http://replayfu.com/r/zHqMD
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Good example build order but from the robo onward, you need to react to what you scout to defend yourself. Delaying the stargate for more gate/robo units etc etc. I quote this merely as an example, because the face of PvP fights is ever changing.
Zealot zealot stalker is a good mix to defeat early aggression builds, but they all have to be maximum chrono boosted to get the stalker out in time to stop Korean 4WG.
What also deserves mention is the timing attack when you have your money zealot/immortal/voidray/stalker mix. When he's turtling for colossi by defending ramp, or other kind of one-base plays like DT transitions use your void rays for sight over the ramp to see if he has sentries at the ready to split half your zealots into a death trap, as your void rays are held off by stalkers until the immortals can pop in to assist. This is a key point of micro, but I believe you are at the advantage with the sight up the ramp. Don't suicide zealots; when you do, you risk being overwhelmed.
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I play in low level leagues mostly but I am interested to try this. I seem to get a little stalled in PvP. I usually end up trying to out-mass/expand whatever my opponent is doing; either gateway units or VRs. Should be a refreshing change.
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I wish I could try this! But PvP that try anything other than mass VR is rare in my bronze league. Still, the tips given were useful, and I hope to try this someday as it sounds interesting.
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I'm glad people are experimenting with Protoss.
I'll have to try this out today, thanks for sharing.
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zealot / immortal / voidray army will beat 4 gate stalkers, provided they do not have blink. Otherwise, blink stalkers would counter this build easily as they can run up and snipe off slow moving VRs and immortals while kiting whatever zealots you built off of 2 gateways. Not to mention, blink would put an end to VR harass while giving supplying your opponent with an effective harass against you.
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since i am desperatly trying to beat this pesky 4gate bullshit, i will give this a try. thanks
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I was wondering when this build was gonna hit the TL forums which i knew it invetably would.
This really hard counters most/all colossi play and puts a pretty good hurt on the 4 warpgate play if executed properly.
Usually i try to push when i have 2 VR's, 3 immortals depending what i scout with my sacrifice probe, either more VR's or more immortals depending on unit composition that i see, the main way to really make this effective is force ur immortals to kill stalkers while VR's kill everything else (VR-->colossi, immortal--->stalker).
Edit: Didnt read through posts.
I have to give all my credit to mr. lazershark on the above text, he was the first person to really introduce this build to me on a stream we were both watching.
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you cant really stop a 4gate with this unless you are facing an idiot protoss. the 4gate push comes early, and you really cant afford 2gates, a robo and a stargate (especially vrays) early in the game. this build works fine against 1gate robo colossus builds, but not against early 4gate pushes
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On September 08 2010 23:36 nublet wrote:
zealot / immortal / voidray army will beat 4 gate stalkers, provided they do not have blink. Otherwise, blink stalkers would counter this build easily as they can run up and snipe off slow moving VRs and immortals while kiting whatever zealots you built off of 2 gateways. Not to mention, blink would put an end to VR harass while giving supplying your opponent with an effective harass against you.
in my experience blink is not a problem. the 4gate stalker protoss is at a advantage because he spend 200 less gas than you. if he gets blink he just spend 300/250 which actually puts you on even ground.
just always keep your void rays and immortals be eachother and keep your zealots nearby. if he tried to snipe your zealots or voids and blink away, your immortals and voids will chip away his numbers at a faster rate cuz immortals shred stalkers
On September 09 2010 00:36 Banaanisaha wrote:
you cant really stop a 4gate with this unless you are facing an idiot protoss. the 4gate push comes early, and you really cant afford 2gates, a robo and a stargate (especially vrays) early in the game. this build works fine against 1gate robo colossus builds, but not against early 4gate pushes
2gate robo defends 4gate just fine..... for the first 40 seconds. then the extra production of 4gate kicks in and overwhelms. thats why 2gate robo likes to get a third gateway to match it.
in the time it takes 4gate to start running, 2-1-1 can be running 12 seconds after that
the 4gate protoss enemy only has 700 minerals 250 gas a minute to spend. you have the same amount
lets just call that 950 resources a minute because probes gather 4gas or 5minerals at a time so lets just say they are about even
4gate costs 650 minerals 50gas
2-1-1 costs 650 minerals 250 gas
both of these builds can completely drain the 700 minerals 250 gas every minute. 4gate can produce 5 stalkers and 75% of a zealot, 2-1-1 can produce 1immortal 1void 2zealots in that minute
the math shows that the 4gate only has a 200gas advantage over you early game. thats 200 resources, out of 950 resources a minute. that means your enemy protoss has a 14 second advantage over you by going 4gate, but you have a advantage in unit composition. so your army will beat his.
the reason i just think of that 200 gas as resources is because you can just spend your early extra minerals on zealots and in battles before the 7 minute mark before your enemy has 20stalkers, your zealots are actually not a bad unit cuz your should have a immortal. your enemy can try to kite zealots all day with your immortals shooting him and eventually your army will just keep being better suited to destroy his because the longer the game goes on 2-1-1 is at a advantage over 4gate
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Can't watch replay right now. Going to ask some questions, some of which may be dumb. Feel free to tell me so.
What do you do if someone goes 4 WG, sees that you're turtling/teching, and decides to back off and expand? Does your push come fast enough to punish this?
Do you not build ANY sentries against 4 WG? I don't see how you can defend the initial push if he has a lot of ranged. Or will hero immortal come out in time the snipe the stalkers?
I suck at PvP and basically I'm just doing 2gate/3 gate robo/4 gate. Honestly I've never even really tried to use voids PvP.
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On September 09 2010 06:06 Kikuichimonji wrote:
Can't watch replay right now. Going to ask some questions, some of which may be dumb. Feel free to tell me so.
What do you do if someone goes 4 WG, sees that you're turtling/teching, and decides to back off and expand? Does your push come fast enough to punish this?
Do you not build ANY sentries against 4 WG? I don't see how you can defend the initial push if he has a lot of ranged. Or will hero immortal come out in time the snipe the stalkers?
I suck at PvP and basically I'm just doing 2gate/3 gate robo/4 gate. Honestly I've never even really tried to use voids PvP.
4WG costs 650 minerals 50gas to start. 2-1-1 costs 650minerals 250gas to start. your build comes online about 20 seconds after your enemy. if your enemy expands, if you attack your enemy should win because he gets reinforcements immediately while yours have to walk.
so if your enemy expands, you expand yourself and get your expansion up. if your enemy attacks you then you will win because your reinforcements arrive immediately
after you expand i recommend getting up 1 more stargate and putting all your gas into voidrays because it forces your enemy to put all his gas into stalkers (or lose). and voidray zealot can defeat mass stalkers in my experience
i build zero sentries the entire game. its all zealot / immortal / voidray + 3-4 stalkers early before i get up the robo. this build starts with a 2gate (when money allows for the second gateway) meaning you get up 3-4 stalkers when your enemy does then you use the gateways to make only zealots, and then instead of building more stalkers you make robo/stargate voids and immortals.
oh yeah and if your enemy does not get collossi then you can keep making immortals to fight stalkers
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Can't wait to try it 
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On September 09 2010 06:17 taketobreak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 06:06 Kikuichimonji wrote:
Can't watch replay right now. Going to ask some questions, some of which may be dumb. Feel free to tell me so.
What do you do if someone goes 4 WG, sees that you're turtling/teching, and decides to back off and expand? Does your push come fast enough to punish this?
Do you not build ANY sentries against 4 WG? I don't see how you can defend the initial push if he has a lot of ranged. Or will hero immortal come out in time the snipe the stalkers?
I suck at PvP and basically I'm just doing 2gate/3 gate robo/4 gate. Honestly I've never even really tried to use voids PvP. 4WG costs 650 minerals 50gas to start. 2-1-1 costs 650minerals 250gas to start. your build comes online about 20 seconds after your enemy. if your enemy expands, if you attack your enemy should win because he gets reinforcements immediately while yours have to walk. so if your enemy expands, you expand yourself and get your expansion up. if your enemy attacks you then you will win because your reinforcements arrive immediately after you expand i recommend getting up 1 more stargate and putting all your gas into voidrays because it forces your enemy to put all his gas into stalkers (or lose). and voidray zealot can defeat mass stalkers in my experience i build zero sentries the entire game. its all zealot / immortal / voidray + 3-4 stalkers early before i get up the robo. this build starts with a 2gate (when money allows for the second gateway) meaning you get up 3-4 stalkers when your enemy does then you use the gateways to make only zealots, and then instead of building more stalkers you make robo/stargate voids and immortals. oh yeah and if your enemy does not get collossi then you can keep making immortals to fight stalkers
You say your build comes 20 seconds after theirs? Then youre probably going to die.
Why would they expand going 4warpgate? thats just absurd what is this bronze league?
With no sentries they'll split your army in half rape half of it then your expensive support units(voidrays/immortals) will just get shit on and you'll lose the game.
Just what you described makes me question this built
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On September 09 2010 06:38 arb wrote:
Why would they expand going 4warpgate? thats just absurd what is this bronze league?
If anyone's the dumb one it's me because I brought up the expand question. He was just answering my question, get off his case.
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On September 09 2010 06:38 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 06:17 taketobreak wrote:On September 09 2010 06:06 Kikuichimonji wrote:
Can't watch replay right now. Going to ask some questions, some of which may be dumb. Feel free to tell me so.
What do you do if someone goes 4 WG, sees that you're turtling/teching, and decides to back off and expand? Does your push come fast enough to punish this?
Do you not build ANY sentries against 4 WG? I don't see how you can defend the initial push if he has a lot of ranged. Or will hero immortal come out in time the snipe the stalkers?
I suck at PvP and basically I'm just doing 2gate/3 gate robo/4 gate. Honestly I've never even really tried to use voids PvP. 4WG costs 650 minerals 50gas to start. 2-1-1 costs 650minerals 250gas to start. your build comes online about 20 seconds after your enemy. if your enemy expands, if you attack your enemy should win because he gets reinforcements immediately while yours have to walk. so if your enemy expands, you expand yourself and get your expansion up. if your enemy attacks you then you will win because your reinforcements arrive immediately after you expand i recommend getting up 1 more stargate and putting all your gas into voidrays because it forces your enemy to put all his gas into stalkers (or lose). and voidray zealot can defeat mass stalkers in my experience i build zero sentries the entire game. its all zealot / immortal / voidray + 3-4 stalkers early before i get up the robo. this build starts with a 2gate (when money allows for the second gateway) meaning you get up 3-4 stalkers when your enemy does then you use the gateways to make only zealots, and then instead of building more stalkers you make robo/stargate voids and immortals. oh yeah and if your enemy does not get collossi then you can keep making immortals to fight stalkers You say your build comes 20 seconds after theirs? Then youre probably going to die. Why would they expand going 4warpgate? thats just absurd what is this bronze league? With no sentries they'll split your army in half rape half of it then your expensive support units(voidrays/immortals) will just get shit on and you'll lose the game. Just what you described makes me question this built
1) i dont die because during those 20 seconds, he could run around trying to snipe my zealots but with micro i wont lose any units. then after those 20 seconds are up ive got voids and immortals to beat his stalkers
we are both limited by the same amount of money. when he knocks on my door he might have 6 stalkers and 3 zealots and ill have 6 zealots and 4 stalkers and my robo / stargates are almost finished building and he is about to get warpgate cooldown refreshed to warp in 3 more stalkers
and this is also a scenario where you assume your enemy attacks and puts full pressure at the exact moment his 4gate is operational. usually he will be about 2-3 seconds slower than that. so that gives him 17 seconds to chase you around. if he focuses your gateway or pylong then you can attack his units, which forces him to run away from zealots kiting zealots, but you also run away your zealots and attack with your 4stalkers. if he attacks your 4stalkers you run away and send in zealots
this EASILY takes up 20 seconds of gametime and in the end you and your enemy lose almost nothing. then your 2-1-1 is operational and now your enemy is at the disadvadvantage and has to retreat
2) normally your enemy wont expand after a 4gate, but the question was "what if he does?" so i answered that question. the person thought this build was too slow to be able to stop a 4gate that expands when he scouts you went 2-1-1. so i answered his question
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i do approve this build.
as long as you could hold all the rushes, get 3 or more immo out with hand full of zealots and 2 VRs, the push is quite effectively.
what is bad about this build is the usage of sentries... force field and blink could screw you over pretty easily as tight choke or ramp. VRs are not great without any support units so them alone cant do anything...
P is the race that has the superior in mobility with their wrap tech but their tier 2 such as robo or VR are super slow... under any kind of harassment when you are containing the foe, you will fall faster than you even noticed.
again, the 4 gate rush (no need to be korean) is very flexibility. if he saw you getting immo, a good players would switch back to zealots sentries and expan with FF contain. unless you find some way to make immortals work at tight pathway, i will recommend using this only on map like scrap station.
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I've tried it this build and I really like it but I can't seem to make it work against (nonkearn) 4gate that pushes right at the first warp-in on maps with bigger ramps (like Scrap Station). I simply can't get the first Void Ray out in time and still have a decent ground army, and even if I do the stagger with forcefields mid-map that still doesn't buy me enough time. Is this a weakness of the build or just me not macroing well enough (700ish diamond, but pvp is my weakness)? Do you have any replays of holding off an early 4gate?
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Rooney in my experience if u scout any sort of 3-4 gate push, get out immortals pre-VR's.
I never go VR's before immortals because of the problems that most PvP's mindset is "Stalker wars". Too many people right now just mass stalkers, with or withoutblink and thats what it usually boils down to on most maps.
To counter this thought/mindset i usually get at least 1 immortal before i start pumping VR's as well, if u scout 4 gate then keep massing immortals and add gates as needed. immortal/zealot/stalker/sentry>4 gate.
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This build WILL die to dedicated 4 gate pressure. Period. You simply cannot produce immortals, void rays, and gateway units from 2 gates simultaneously on 1 base. You can do 3 gate + robo or 2 gate + void ray. In order to have enough gas to produce void rays and immortals, you'll have to cut all sentry production. This gives the other a toss a free shot at breaking your ramp with his superior numbers. The immortals will get torn up by the zealots, and stalker/sentry will kill the 2-3 void rays that you have.
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On September 13 2010 01:44 xDaunt wrote:
This build WILL die to dedicated 4 gate pressure. Period. You simply cannot produce immortals, void rays, and gateway units from 2 gates simultaneously on 1 base. You can do 3 gate + robo or 2 gate + void ray. In order to have enough gas to produce void rays and immortals, you'll have to cut all sentry production. This gives the other a toss a free shot at breaking your ramp with his superior numbers. The immortals will get torn up by the zealots, and stalker/sentry will kill the 2-3 void rays that you have.
I absolutely agree.
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On September 13 2010 01:51 justinsroy wrote:
Daunt, its called scouting, and adapting. Done.
Unless your opponent is bad, you're not going to beat a 4gate rush if you have already sunk money into a stargate and a robo. That's too many lost resources that could and should have been spent on units. If you scout something that looks like 4gate and do something else, that's an entirely different build at that point. I'm just saying that 2-1-1 will die to a good 4 gate.
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@taketobreak
The replays you posted weren't really 4gate non-korean or korean.
I'd like to see if this succeeds vs those builds.
Since you don't research warpgate (which can be seen just looking at cybernetics) it means u won't have many sentries if not at all if they scout your wall. Then a good 4gate push will kill your gateways/cybernetics which you will not be able to stop with your ground army.
Then it's just a coin toss if you can get out your VR's in time or they'll kill your stargate.
I agree with xDaunt that a proper 4gate(korean) will bust your wall and kill your stargate and the rest of your army after which they can then just make a few stalkers after they busted in your base. Without a sentry to FF ramp you won't be able to stop any ground army from busting your wall. Then it's going to be a coin toss if you can get out your VR fast and VR do NOT kill zealots fast so they can just kill your stargate if they see it or robo and then you're basically out of air units and you cannot get more ground units since they will die to the 4gate ground army push.
Edit:
Just tested it on metalopolis vs computer cross positions so the longest rush distance.
A proper korean 4gate will result in warpgate finishing about 5 min 20 sec (pro 4gate probably just below 5 minute mark with close positions since I forgot 1 time to CB cybernetics).
At which at this point you'll instantly warp in units so you'll be at around 8 zealots (depending if you produce zealots while upgrading warpgate) right at your enemies base with first warp in and about 30 sec later your next 4 zealots too.
At your replays your stargate finishes at 6 minute and 30 sec which means if I did a korean 4gate I'd have about 16 zealots out by the time your stargate finishes and no robo done yet.
Just judging from my own test of a korean 4gate I'd say you won't have a VR out when a korean 4gate is pushing out but you probably could get 1 and if you properly micro your units you'd be able to get 2 VR's out after which you'd be able to slowly kill all the zealots but who knows what those zealots would focus on. Probes/stargate/gateways/pylons etc.
This will most likely work if you have a long distance map so I think NB said it in a previous post this will succesfully work on a map like Scrap Station or Xel'naga Caverns which the korean 4gate will come out way too late.
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Here's the other thing that I initially missed about the build: he's skipping warpgate tech and not throwing down his robo until he sees whether his opponent has a robo (or at least I assume that's what he's doing unless he's advocating that the toss drop a second stargate after robo while still on one base). Hell, it's not even clear when he builds his stargate, but it looks like this is basically a glorified 2-gate + stargate build that adds a robo late. This dies to a good 4gate rush. End of story. The 4-gating toss will be on full 4gate production and have twice the troops and twice the production that the 2-1-1 toss will have.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
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I definitely think this build will crumble to any 4 gate, blink Stalker, 3 gate Stargate play.
I actually think it *might* work against Robo play but if your opponent isn't good enough to scout what you're teching to, you'd have probably beaten with him a 4 gate yourself. Agreed with Plexa in that I'd rather Phoenix.
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On September 13 2010 02:23 xDaunt wrote:
Here's the other thing that I initially missed about the build: he's skipping warpgate tech and not throwing down his robo until he sees whether his opponent has a robo (or at least I assume that's what he's doing unless he's advocating that the toss drop a second stargate after robo while still on one base). Hell, it's not even clear when he builds his stargate, but it looks like this is basically a glorified 2-gate + stargate build that adds a robo late. This dies to a good 4gate rush. End of story. The 4-gating toss will be on full 4gate production and have twice the troops and twice the production that the 2-1-1 toss will have.
2 gate stargate, can defend 4 warpgate.
Pretty sure I have a replay where I played against you with that build.
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I have serious doubts that you can stop a 4 gate with a pylon break (pylon below cliff, run up get vision, warp 4 zealots on the top side)
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@ Plexa, I've personally beat someone going the same build, he went phoenix, i went voidray. My build pummeled through his, even though he had defender's advantage.
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On September 13 2010 02:23 xDaunt wrote:
Here's the other thing that I initially missed about the build: he's skipping warpgate tech and not throwing down his robo until he sees whether his opponent has a robo (or at least I assume that's what he's doing unless he's advocating that the toss drop a second stargate after robo while still on one base). Hell, it's not even clear when he builds his stargate, but it looks like this is basically a glorified 2-gate + stargate build that adds a robo late. This dies to a good 4gate rush. End of story. The 4-gating toss will be on full 4gate production and have twice the troops and twice the production that the 2-1-1 toss will have.
the build wants to get up 2 warpgates, 1 robo, and 1 stargate initially
vs a 4gate you will have equal production capacity, but a 2-1-1 build spends 200 extra gas on his production buildings.
4gate + warptech costs 650/50
2-1-1 costs 650/250
4gates and 2-1-1 both have enough production capacity to eat up 700 minerals / 250 gas a minute. the 2-1-1 has more production capacity than4gates of both players expanded.
im still trying to modify the build and figure out the best way to get to 2-1-1 while having the most units possible early game and a matching economy. it might be better to throw down the second gateway faster. or it might not be.
people saying this 2-1-1 is too slow should realize this build is 200 gas slower than 4gate which means its about 15 seconds slower. that doesnt mean much really because you can stall for 15 seconds while your enemies warpgates will be on cooldown from the first warp in. you will have stalkers/zeals and your enemy will have stalkers/zeals so that 15 seconds doesnt mean much there will just be lots of running around.
a 1base toss can gets 950 resources (700 minerals 250 gas) a minute so im just calling 200gas equal to roughly 25% of that (so 1/4 of a minute is 15 seconds). i know 200 is not 25% of 950 im just being liberal about it.
the second stargate is to counter collossi if you scout collossi. if your enemy does not get collossi then you dont need that second stargate but usually if your enemy has a robo hes going for collossi. VR / zealot will defeat collossi / stalker. but immortal/vr/zealot will lose to collossi/stalker because immortals take away from your vr count.
im playing more games right now and theres protoss everywhere on the ladder so i should have more replays soon
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I've been doing this in PvP since the first month o beta or so. Only works against P thats not the absolute top.
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First off, it really bothers me that so many people are saying "Lol this will lose to X". Seriously? There's no build order that you can use every game that will work vs everything. In PvP you have to scout and react to what you see. Don't like it? Too bad.
Zealot/immortal/VR is a strong composition to go for and dominates mid game PvP. Yes, you will have to do different things before you can get there, depending on what your opponent does, but it is almost always possible to eventually get this combination and become very threatening with it.
Your build is bad, horribly timed, and won't hold any reasonable 4gate. I adapted it, to see if the unit combination would work and well... i don't see any reason to be building VRs from the Stargate instead of Phoenix - the phoenix seems superior in every way.
I don't know why you bothered posting any of those replays. They are pretty pointless and prove nothing. First two games were not even worth watching and third game was fail control / positioning. So his build order isn't the best, who cares? At least he started a topic on this.
Anyways, I like this topic because it brings up the zealot/immortal/VR combo.
However, I think you guys are taking the wrong approach to this build. Let me share how I use this in PvP.
Zealot/immortal/VR can be an extremely strong timing attack.
When is the best time to attack?
The best time to attack is when an opponent goes robo and gets his/her first colossus.
How do you defend against 2 gate and all the variations of 4 gate?
With the standard counters. Personally, I always get 9 pylon/scout 13 gate. If my opponent is 2 gating I match his zealot count until it is safe to tech to stalker. If my opponent is doing a korean 4 gate I add a second gateway early and chrono boost zealots to overwhelm him. If my opponent is doing a normal 4 gate I get a fast immortal and usually 3 gateways.
"There's no stargate involved"
You're right. Don't add a stargate until it is safe to do so. When your opponent is being aggressive with gateways, defend with a standard robo build until it's safe to build a stargate.
When your opponent is doing a robo build: THIS is when you can get away with doing a build similar to what TTB described in his original post.
Once you get your zealot/immortal/VR mix you will dominate with proper micro. I usually expand when I start moving out. It is important to have 3 gateways by the time you move out because having a high zealot count is important. The game usually ends when your VR's are charged up at his base and you are constantly reinforcing.
Why does this work?
Zealot + immortal (and some sentries) dominate protoss ground and quickly get rid of the only real threat to your VR's. Once your VR's are charged there is little to nothing the opponent can do to stop them when their stalker count gets really low.
Why should I listen to you?
You don't have to. I just want people to realize that this is a viable strategy. Right now I'm a 1250 protoss and am climbing the ladder very fast. My strongest matchup is PvP and I never have any trouble using zealot/immortal/VR. While you guys sit here and talk about how this build is bad, I will be winning/having fun with it on bnet.
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I just came in to say 4gate doesn't require a 2nd vespene making your mineral collection that much faster. So a direct resource comparison is sooooooo bad. But what would I know about PvP?
I only make zealots.
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here is a game i just played against a 1350 diamond toss
this toss went for blink stalkers sentry. and it does show that this build can be pretty weak to it because that first attack had me trapped behind my ramp
but i ended up winning the battles and the game even though he had larger army than me because of my unit composition
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&&id=148551
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I just played a game recently against this and got pretty well steamrolled. I went with my standard 3gate 1robo build and scouted the void rays with his army so I went stalker heavy. The zealots and void rays seems to work together nicely because the opponent has to focus the void rays before they get charged and focusing the void rays puts the stalkers right in range of the zealots to get diced up. He also had some flawless forcefield use that decimated my army.
I've been trying to figure out how to make a 2-1-1 build work for awhile now and this looks pretty solid the only thing I don't like is without an observer you're pretty blind but I'll give this build a shot.
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On September 12 2010 22:42 StillRooney wrote:
I've tried it this build and I really like it but I can't seem to make it work against (nonkearn) 4gate that pushes right at the first warp-in on maps with bigger ramps (like Scrap Station). I simply can't get the first Void Ray out in time and still have a decent ground army, and even if I do the stagger with forcefields mid-map that still doesn't buy me enough time. Is this a weakness of the build or just me not macroing well enough (700ish diamond, but pvp is my weakness)? Do you have any replays of holding off an early 4gate?
it may be better to go 2gate robo for faster immortals to fight against a good 4gate.
that might be the only way to stop a good 4gate. then you get void rays next to counter collossi
fast VR's before immortal may be the wrong choice against a good 4gate but i need to play against really good 4gaters a bit more to find out
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Just go 2 gate - stargate forge.
edit: nevermind about the rest
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How would you scout that he's going a robo build, without having an observer of your own.
Most people will make a stalker to chase out the probe, and place units near their ramp so no probes can get in.
Is there an alternate way to scout? Other than engaging armies?
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i wouldnt wanna use a pheonix to scout cuz getting just 1 pheonix would weaken your army slightly since just 1 is pretty weak. and massing pheonix would be weak too
so dont get pheonix
i think the best thing to do would be to scout with 1 stalker running around the map by your enemy. if your enemy is above his ramp in his base then do not run up the ramp cuz you will get forcefielded. but if your enemy is below his ramp your single stalker can scout and will not die if you micro it good enough
if your enemy got blink he can kill your stalker but im talkin mid game scouting just trying to see if he has immortals
if your enemy immortals super early i will still wait a bit for that second stargate by the way since you dont wanna put it up too fast
later in the game you could use a voidray to scout a bit and kill a few probes if you wanna look for his tech. or a observer if its lategame since you can afford it.
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Why are you calling this "TTB's PvP 2-1-1 build" when top level players have been doing this for several weeks? Watch kiwikaki vs huk and suggy vs tt1 iem games, for example.
EDIT: I guess you're getting void rays and not phoenix, but still I don't see why everyone has to name their build after themselves.
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On September 13 2010 15:38 PJA wrote:
Why are you calling this "TTB's PvP 2-1-1 build" when top level players have been doing this for several weeks? Watch kiwikaki vs huk and suggy vs tt1 iem games, for example.
EDIT: I guess you're getting void rays and not phoenix, but still I don't see why everyone has to name their build after themselves.
sorry i need to edit the front post
i meant it as in "this is the build TTB likes to do in PvP" however i know it also implies ownership. i will edit and change it. i dont own this build
EDIT: i cant edit the thread title. whatever. i dont care i guess. think whatever you want im sorry i wrote an offensive title
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On September 13 2010 15:33 taketobreak wrote:
i wouldnt wanna use a pheonix to scout cuz getting just 1 pheonix would weaken your army slightly since just 1 is pretty weak. and massing pheonix would be weak too
so dont get pheonix
i think the best thing to do would be to scout with 1 stalker running around the map by your enemy. if your enemy is above his ramp in his base then do not run up the ramp cuz you will get forcefielded. but if your enemy is below his ramp your single stalker can scout and will not die if you micro it good enough
if your enemy got blink he can kill your stalker but im talkin mid game scouting just trying to see if he has immortals
if your enemy immortals super early i will still wait a bit for that second stargate by the way since you dont wanna put it up too fast
later in the game you could use a voidray to scout a bit and kill a few probes if you wanna look for his tech. or a observer if its lategame since you can afford it.
Phoenix is fine. 1 phoenix doesn't weaken you much. If he's going robo, building more phoenixes is a really strong move.
If he's going 4 warpgate, well then regardless of what you're going you just gotta buckle up and defend.
If he's going some noob coin-flip build, like blink stalkers, you stop all stargate production, get a robo, and keep pumping zealots, then expand whenever you have the money, and get a 2nd robo, while continuously using your phoenix to scout...
Opening phoenix is way better than opening voidray and then not being able to scout.
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EPT
