[G] PvP - DT Rush - Page 2

Ezareth

United States60 Posts

September 07 2010 19:36 GMT

#21

I rarely see a PvP game go past the 10 minute mark any more and if they are teching it's more like 6 or 7. I've seen guys going for this before and it's too easy to anticipate and stop via rush.

When some protoss learn how to counter a triple gateway rush these type of strategies might be more viable...maybe the patch will fix that (probably).

PvP is such a boring matchup any more. It's either rush, or who can build the most Collossus. They need to give collossus energy and an anti-air ability or something which would also give HT a counter to them. Otherwise the only counter to collossi + stalkers is......more collossi.

Bibdy

United States3481 Posts

September 07 2010 19:57 GMT

#22

On September 08 2010 04:36 Ezareth wrote:
I rarely see a PvP game go past the 10 minute mark any more and if they are teching it's more like 6 or 7. I've seen guys going for this before and it's too easy to anticipate and stop via rush.

When some protoss learn how to counter a triple gateway rush these type of strategies might be more viable...maybe the patch will fix that (probably).

PvP is such a boring matchup any more. It's either rush, or who can build the most Collossus. They need to give collossus energy and an anti-air ability or something which would also give HT a counter to them. Otherwise the only counter to collossi + stalkers is......more collossi.

Or snipe their Observer with an Observer+Stalkers and send in DTs, but yeah in most cases its just a Collossus rush, who gets the better position on who and who managed to sneak an expansion somewhere on the map.

However, a lot of Collossus rushers skip the Observer (I know I tend to) and try to get the first two Collossi + upgrade out as rapidly as possible, using a tiny Gateway force + Sentry at the ramp to hold off in the meantime. I've been caught with my pants down by DTs every now and then.

It definitely traps you in your base for a while, meaning the guy rushing DTs should have an easier time expanding.

youmaygetmad

United States26 Posts

September 07 2010 20:41 GMT

#23

It is a solid build order that optimizes the speed in which you get dark templar.... but it sort of leaves out people who go with standard openers and poke around before reaching "critical mass" of an army. It seems like it rely's way to heavily on the other player going "ok i am going to wait until i have 50/50 food to attack", I see so much early aggression that people like to call "rushing" but if you see that you can do a significant amount of damage with a couple of units then why wouldn't you do it? On a side note I know you already said this but nobody gets their probe killed by a lone zealot... unless they just stop moving it while scouting. I for one initially build a stalker and use it to scout as well as, if the opportunity presents itself, do some damage with that stalker if they have only built a zealot and if you see they only have one zealot while you are already piddling around in their base you better believe theres going to be more units coming that way. Since really, until they get charge, all zealots are good for is being meat shields. Not going to say I haven't lost to a dt rush once or twice but it really seems to be a better idea if you were to make a twilight council and then if you see they don't have any detecting units in some point of the map (or just a weak spot) drop a warp prism in a back door spot and do some nasty damage with it. I personally prefer to use DT's as a distraction to get the main army out of position and then moving in to do some huge damage to an expansion or a natural while they are out of position.

bobcat

United States488 Posts

September 08 2010 17:22 GMT

#24

Normally when I see a twilight council in PvP I think blink stalkers/chargelots with DT's floating in the back of my mind. But when I see a twilight council around the time my 4th gate is warping in, I know you're rushing DT's. So the question is, do I have enough forces on hand to beat you before you finish warping in the council and then the shrine. (I should if im a good player) or if im going for a 2 gate robo build, then i need to boost an observer out before I push and win? even if you are base trading, doing it with a player who has more forces is never a good idea unless you can guarantee they have no observers, and even then they can take out anything you make more quickly than your dt's. I just don't see the viability of this build.

meathook

1289 Posts

September 09 2010 17:49 GMT

#25

+ Show Spoiler [(NSFW maybe)Gotta love the related img…] +

Anyone else notice?

Karliath

United States2214 Posts

September 10 2010 00:05 GMT

#26

I read through the guide, but where can I find a detailed description of the Tester build? I've heard of it a lot, but don't actually know what it is. Anyways, I ask because you make reference to it a few times.

youngminii

Australia7514 Posts

September 10 2010 00:20 GMT

#27

Just used it. Beautiful, made the guy drop some tears too.

The Tester build is a very all in strat where probe production ceases at 18. You then rush warp gate and make 3 pylons in the opponent's base and overwhelm with with Zealots.

Okay I've used it a few times now. I REALLY like this build. I make an extra Stalker to kill the scout probe or if it's a 4 gate push a Sentry to FF the ramp but yeah this build is awesome. If they go Robo and you pressure them with mass Zealots they generally don't make any observers, it's great.

AcrylicMass

United States15 Posts

September 10 2010 04:55 GMT

#28

Amazing build. I just used it twice in a row and won rather handily. And, even better, in both games, my opponents went 2gate-robo, but I was able to use the zealots and dts to focus the robotic facility (in addition to several probes kills) and then when they only one observer, their army can't really leave their base without it, and if they leave with it, I can just run the dt in behind them. And the whole time I'm expanding and macroing.

Fangzhou

United States199 Posts

September 10 2010 17:20 GMT

#29

What do you do against a 3 gate robo player that just simply knows how to use forcefield? By the time your initial push comes in. They will have around 2 sentries with enough energy for at least 3 forcefields and warpgate almost finished researching. With correct forcefields they will not let your zealots do any kind of pressure up the ramp nor let you get vision of the high ground to warp in zealots or dts into their base. Then they can just camp out till they get observer and collosus to push out. Yes it will be late due to the amount of sentries made but still earlier than any tech switch the DT player can do. I would love to see this build in action and test it out. My BNet ID is Fangzhou 111 if you want to test this out.

whateversclever

United States197 Posts

September 10 2010 18:38 GMT

#30

On September 08 2010 04:25 Jayrod wrote:
I havent tried this yet but I want to emphasize that this BO seems to look alot like a heavy zealot pressure from the other end sans the second gas. Heavy gateway/zealot builds require a different response (usually) than a robotics build can offer... at least in the amount of time it takes to get there. Protoss are taught in PvP that you really need to match gateway counts or lose. If they try to match your gateways then you've already won. If they figure out that you're doing DTs then you havent lost because you have units, are already down a tech path, and could use DTs for either map control or just turn them into archons for a little meatsheild.

The problem I foresee is that the tech path you just went down is pretty well countered by the robotics route. HT is not good vs toss really, Dark Templar are squishy when they have an observer, archon morph is okay, but they are countered by immortals and just the high damage/HP of toss units. Blink stalkers might be a good transition, but again, theyre already down the immortal tech tree and immortals shit on stalkers. You do mention the ~ 4 min transition if they go robotics and you cant do damage to them or keep them in their base. My concern is that the best transition you can do would be to the same thing theyve already gone for, collossus. Toss dont really have a great counter for collossus. Phoenix are okay, but you need quite a few to make a dent and I dont see your stalker counter being high enough to take advantage of gravitron if phoenix's are your recourse for collossus/CC.

Ill give this a try though it seems there are a couple flaws. My problem with DT builds have always been that you can get them fast, ~6 minutes ish, but that you can only get a couple of them... 4 or 5, but 3 with the first warp in and thats if you save up entirely. If you lose those for some reason and they push with their army that has an observer. I dont see how you could possibly hold or expand. If they contain you from that point I dont see you transitioning.

Just because you make a Dark Shrine doesn't mean that you have to use them. The threat of them is huge. 100/250 is little compared to how much it costs to make you feel safe against Dark Templar. If you force them to keep two Observers at your base to ward off an attack, that's already 100/200.

Stalkers are one of the best ranged units (2nd to Marauders) at dealing with Colossus. If you watch the recent Day9, you'll see that Stalkers are actually surprising awesome against Colossus. Plus, forcing and sniping off Observers invests a lot of your Gas resources and your Robotics Facility production. So it's actually, kind of a good indirect counter.

Newtybar

United States19 Posts

September 10 2010 20:05 GMT

#31

Really nice and careful timings. The window seems pretty small, but if executed properly should force the enemy to react and you can set the pace for the remainder.

viraltouch

United States299 Posts

September 10 2010 23:37 GMT

#32

what would be plan b if your dts fail by his robo making an observer.
against toss HT sounds bad, so start climbing another tech tree? or go with gateway units against higher techs? sounds like a hit or miss I think. against toss matchup, DT seems like it is all in just because you won't have many units and too late to go down on another tech route.

Ryuu314

United States12679 Posts

September 11 2010 00:43 GMT

#33

On September 07 2010 17:36 Kage wrote:

Show nested quote +

Where are you getting these replays from????

Gosugamers has some good korean replays. Otherwise, just lurk the forums or google x]

Karliath

United States2214 Posts

September 18 2010 01:42 GMT

#34

I don't know if it's just me, but the replay download doesn't seem to be working.

Wartortle

Australia504 Posts

September 18 2010 01:49 GMT

#35

I got beaten by this yesturday, it was rly nice and worked well. I then used it to beat a P and T player. Against T, just scout for turrets and stagger the entry of DTs so they run out of scans. Off one base, they wont have many anyway.

rezoacken

Canada2719 Posts

September 18 2010 02:06 GMT

#36

That's the reason why I like to go 3G Forge 4th gate if I go 4Gates. Losing to DT is frustrating : (

Actually trying to working on a 4G + Forge into expand build, inspired by the adel series of Day9. I'm a bit tired of playing 1 base pushes in this game.
In theory I feel 4G + Forge (+1) + 1Canon should be ok to fend 4G, and Colossus come late enough to add blink and a lot of gates units to overwhelm his. But hey this is more easily said than done.

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