EPT[H] ZvP can't beat 2gate-->4gate early pressure - Page 3
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phrikshin
2 Posts
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fenster
United States73 Posts
If they 2gate, they will be sacrificing economy, no doubt. I do a 5RR opening against P if I scout 2 gate, throwing down my expo right as the roaches are rolling out and then droning hard for the next minute or so. This period will inevitably have to be a transition for P too -- he just invested in a line of zealots running to your base which are now ineffective. He has to be behind on core tech a little bit, allowing you to drone up and research speed while you harass a bit with your roaches (or just play D if you are not feeling well about a push). I used to always lose to 4gate because I was too anxious to get lair tech. Yes - hydras are great against gateway units but it just takes too much time. Roaches and slings are surprisingly good against 4 gate if you have enough and flank with your slings. Continue droning, mixing in roaches and slings eventually once you start anticipating a push. Start making fewer drones and go to lair tech...from my experience right around this point is when they will push. It is pivotal that you know when they move out, crank units while they are approaching, and flank well with your speedlings. Once you defend the push, you can typically go pretty heavy mutas as he will be expecting hydras, or hive tech or do whatever you'd like. Really defending the 4gate is just timing and knowing when to drone and when not to. You probably feel behind because you are over-anticipating the attack and not droning when you should. Proper injects are also crucial so have you the larvae when you need it. Just my two cents. | ||
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hakundo
25 Posts
...couldn't test it yet, but do slings/roaches counter gateway units, like zealots/sentries/stalkers or is slings/hydras more powerful? | ||
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Skarra
39 Posts
I've found that this entire match up is an entire crap-shoot. Baneling busting into mass ling wins me about 85% of my ZvP games even at my level as they usually don't have enough sentry to FF ramp and they usually shit themselves and pull probes to deal with early zerg pressure, usually ending the game within 5 min or so. However, this isn't full proof, as a good wall off or a decent microing of sentry FF rapes this pressure. When I'm not baneling busting, I'm beginning to favor expanding at around 20-21, but not droning my expo until he carries out his first attack. Also, getting 200 gas and spending it on +1 attk and ling speed is great, and then taking drones of gas until lair tech. This allows you to produce a ridiculous amount of lings (upwards of 60) by the time he attacks around 8 min into the game. Micro is a big player, as if your ling ball gets FF zealots will just destory everything. Some games these strats work well and sometimes they don't. I still don't think there is a concrete solution. | ||
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comis
United States333 Posts
A good P can 2 gate into 4 gate and keep constant pressure on the Zerg while taking nearly no economy hit and establishing an expansion for a comfortable, game-ending transition into Colossi or HT. For this reason, I started playing P. I've won every PvZ so far with this build (despite only playing maybe 5 games total as P beforehand and going up against ~800-1000 Diamond Z's). I don't personally think a perfectly-executed 2 gate into 4 gate is beatable by any perfectly-executed Z strat. | ||
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comis
United States333 Posts
On September 08 2010 05:20 fenster wrote: 800 diamond here, but I have lately been having great results vs P who 2gate into 4gate, or just pure 4 gate. If they 2gate, they will be sacrificing economy, no doubt. I do a 5RR opening against P if I scout 2 gate, throwing down my expo right as the roaches are rolling out and then droning hard for the next minute or so. This period will inevitably have to be a transition for P too -- he just invested in a line of zealots running to your base which are now ineffective. He has to be behind on core tech a little bit, allowing you to drone up and research speed while you harass a bit with your roaches (or just play D if you are not feeling well about a push). I used to always lose to 4gate because I was too anxious to get lair tech. Yes - hydras are great against gateway units but it just takes too much time. Roaches and slings are surprisingly good against 4 gate if you have enough and flank with your slings. Continue droning, mixing in roaches and slings eventually once you start anticipating a push. Start making fewer drones and go to lair tech...from my experience right around this point is when they will push. It is pivotal that you know when they move out, crank units while they are approaching, and flank well with your speedlings. Once you defend the push, you can typically go pretty heavy mutas as he will be expecting hydras, or hive tech or do whatever you'd like. Really defending the 4gate is just timing and knowing when to drone and when not to. You probably feel behind because you are over-anticipating the attack and not droning when you should. Proper injects are also crucial so have you the larvae when you need it. Just my two cents. The critical flaw here is assuming he is making zealots. A good P who scouts fast roaches will simply make 1 zealot to block, get warp up fast and crush you with 4 gate stalkers/zeal/sentry. Best case scenario you stop his push, but at what cost? He's now at 30 probe to your 15-20 drones and is working on his expansion. Meanwhile you're frantically rebuilding to hold off another attack which may or may not happen while he's comfortably grabbing upgrades and moving on to Colossi or HT for the final push. | ||
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fenster
United States73 Posts
On September 08 2010 05:43 comis wrote: The critical flaw here is assuming he is making zealots. A good P who scouts fast roaches will simply make 1 zealot to block, get warp up fast and crush you with 4 gate stalkers/zeal/sentry. Best case scenario you stop his push, but at what cost? He's now at 30 probe to your 15-20 drones and is working on his expansion. Meanwhile you're frantically rebuilding to hold off another attack which may or may not happen while he's comfortably grabbing upgrades and moving on to Colossi or HT for the final push. Sorry - I should have specified. Good scouting will let me know if he's making an expo and what kind of an army composition he has. Until he starts taking a second base, I assume 4 gate or some sort of large 1-base push (since this is pretty much his only option). If I DO see an expo go down, I drone much harder and throw down some crawlers in case he tries some sort of sneaky timing push while I get mutas on 2 base. And if he's 1-basing, I poke in with lings to see his composition...if it's mostly stalker/sentry, I pump slings and so on. | ||
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zyzski
United States698 Posts
you can even push+win if you get like 8 roaches before he gets any stalkers pumping | ||
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Antares777
United States1971 Posts
On September 06 2010 17:22 whomybuddy wrote: .............1 base zerg vs 1 base toss isn't GG. I mean you gain the same amount of mineral and gas. You only lose because you have bad macro and slow tech or not enough army. You can have an extra hatchery nearby your main for extra lava to produce more lings. Just try to tech to hydra fast and you'll be fine expanding later. 1 base toss/terran beats 1 base zerg like 95% of the time in my experience as zerg. | ||
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JamieDukes
Russian Federation82 Posts
 against 2 gate pressure jsut get an evo chamber up asap for the +1 damage zealots go down so fast then when they come in with mass templar/zealot/colossus army just send in your brood lords which outrange everything | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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McCormick
France2 Posts
GET EVOS !! ...and specially the +1 attack on zerglings (if no +1attack for lots ==>+1 carapace), you'd be amazed by what it can do. If you feel confident on the timing, u can even get +1melee before speed (risky). The 2 evos then complete about the same time and when they kick in, your zerglings are unstoppable. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On September 08 2010 06:21 teamsolid wrote: Even the best Zerg in the world Cool aka Fruitseller almost lost to 1 gate stalker pressure into 4-gate on scrap (arguably a good zerg map) in the GSL. So it's no joke to hold off if well executed by the P. arguably a good Zerg map? Definetly the best Zerg map at least for ZvP surely. Btw i was shocked too that it almost killed him. But still, almost won still means he lost. | ||
Kelsin
United States253 Posts
But so far the best luck I've had so far against 4 gate is to try and expand with slings (+1 attack) and if he pushes right then, cancel and build the hatch in my main instead to try and keep up with production. At that point I just try to keep him on his toes (he normally gets an expansion up, but if he does I try to grab two). The amount of sling/roach/hydra with two hatches (and two queens obviously) has kept me up to speed. The problem is I'm very scared of meeting more people in platinum that can play the 4gate a bit better  | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
Against a 4 gate with a 2 gate opening things get trickier imo. Pure slings is a lot harder to pull off here. And after you defend his initial wave of zealots you're still dealing with a massive loss to your economy. He's been pumping probes this entire time while you've been making slings a spiney and getting a late hatch. But is 5RR any better? Maybe. You actually do save more in the long run since roaches are so much more cost effective than defending with pure slings. But I don't know it's not something I've drilled with practice partners yet. Can someone with more experience dealing with this give me some help? | ||
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aztrorisk
United States896 Posts
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Authweight
United States304 Posts
As theorycraft, I believe a double-expand while upgrading to lair could be an effective transition out of this, as the smart protoss player will retreat and expand when he sees your giant ball of death. I've never seen anyone try this, though, so I can't really say how it would work. | ||
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Vei
United States2845 Posts
This might be a little too much APM for high plat/low dia, but I'm sure you could pull it off. Also, don't miss ANY injects -- if you do that's hurting you way more than any 2gate pressure. | ||
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Scottymc
Australia134 Posts
he is not sacrificing anything to 2gate exept tech. well maybe 1 probe but thats it. I like the idea of spine crawlers then do a run by that would in my opinion be devestating. Good call Vei. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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