Long time lurker, first time poster. (I miss my little lurkers) =(
I've battled my way from a lowly Bronze Zerg to upper Platinum, and can't seem to break into Diamond. I've slowly gotten better, but I have finally hit a large road block with playing against Diamond Protoss.
Even with all the talk of the imbalance of the ZvT match-up, I struggle immensely to early 2-gate pressure. This denies my expo, and as he transitions to 4 gate, he clearly out produces me until I crack.
I'm at a loss with what to do. I've tried spines/speedlings to defend the first push. I've gone roaches. But no matter what the Protoss player is always way ahead of me in army count and economy.
I've attached 3 recent replays of this typical aggression.
Thanks in advance for any and all help. Oh, and feel free to rip me a new one. We don't get better without some good criticism.
-Angelus
PS: please forgive my marginal BM and "whining" in some of these replays. These were a bunch of loses in a row and it quickly wore on my patience.
I still have a crazy amount of trouble with this at mid-diamond sadly ._. What I do is quickly expand and then mass lings and immediately place down spine crawlers. The natural expansion may take a few zealot hits but it should be fine in the long-run. Place down a ton of spinecrawlers early so that you aren't scrambling when his attack hits. After this, just power drones and tech to whatever. Might be harder on closer maps, though.
I've found that the 5RR is really helping me against this kind of 2 gate pressure. I find that my roaches are pushing out right when the zealots move out and with some micro you can easily beat them.
2 gate mass zealots right- ............ 10gas ( dont put worker in gas yet ) 13-14pool ( put worker to gas right away, once pool finished you should have 100 gas to upgrade for speed lings).......16 queen.... get 2-4lings for scout right away. If toss is committing to pressure you with his 2-6 zealots, make plenty of lings (need good micro to pick up his zealot don't just auto attack). After you have map control again with plenty of lings, keep making drones again. Remember to tech lair at 23/26 or so when you have another 100 gas. After getting gas for lair tech, you can remove the drones from gas for extra lings production to defend against 2-4gates if you want. ................get a nydus worm, click the movement point of nydus worm to the mineral line. Press d to unload all lings and kill his workers. Now you should have way better economy than toss. Making hydras with lings as tank. Remember hydra dps is insane.
I hope you enjoy my analysis but i think you should have been also able to do that on your level.
You should pratice against toss very hard AI, i doubt you will win.
First game: you saw the 2 gates pretty clearly, no gas also. You should thrown spine right away. I know what you probably thought...(i think) "maybe he won't get me in time". There's no maybes.
I think your timing is off also, your BO is wrong. Getting supply blocked @ 18? At least master a stable BO.
Second game: You took out your drones to kill the probes. You let your drone patrol and didnt look for the gas, anyways... you did see the 2 gates, didn't throw a spine asap. Didn't take drones out of gas.
You took 1 drone to scout and other to try to kill the probe(again), stupid mistake. You didn't get metabolic boost asap(maybe a little later if you had a spine or two). You positioned bad the spines, position one in the mineral line. Once you get 100 gas you should have taken your drones off gas to defend that push, kmon... you saw it coming.
You still let the drones on gas after you started the roach warren and had like 180+ gas(enoght for almost 10 roaches which would take you ~2 larva injections).
WAY too much mistakes sir. I know how hard it's to play zerg and what you are suffering, but you gotta fix that. You are not playing terran or toss, you have to perfect at least your opening! It's not that hard... you can use only one almost all games.
You should have left the game by the 5min mark after that, your game sense is bad.
Third game: same shit, you saw the 3rd gate going down and that he was going stalkers. REALLY BAD MACRO, you had 1983193813 gas. You had 15 drones while he had 28 probes HOLY SHIT. Before that you tried to push with like 4 roaches and some lings, were you nuts? Toss is always making units and you should take that in account. Try to always get your expansion up @ around 22, you were playing 1 base with really bad resources manegement, way too much extra gas...
As a zerg, seriously... never attack like that unless you are going some 5RR build. You just react and expand -- that's a rule.
personally people who usually mass lings fall prey to mass zealots. the zealots really rip through those zerglings very quickly and with proper positioning and micro they arent gonna let u surround and kill their zealots 1by1 keeping them bunched or in a line . but then again im in mid level diamond playing at 1.1k+ so maybe im just playing against weaker zerg players. anyway i believe roaches would be the answer to those zealots. those roaches really do very well against the zealots.
lings are better than zealots if you can mass them. It's very easy for slings to surround zealots. You can't make roaches fast enough against 2 gate zealots.
Thanks TL for your candor. As everyone can see, my game still has a lot of holes. It also didn't help that most of those games I went in pretty frazzled.
Anyways, my take away from the replies is: Try 5RR to fend off initial zealot push. Overlord at 15, not 16 or *gasp* 18 Once I have enough gas, pull the drones and put on minerals Try 2 crawlers, 1 in the mineral line right when I see the 2 gate
Thanks again! I'll report back after I implement all the advice.
On September 06 2010 13:40 AngelusH wrote: Thanks TL for your candor. As everyone can see, my game still has a lot of holes. It also didn't help that most of those games I went in pretty frazzled.
Anyways, my take away from the replies is: Try 5RR to fend off initial zealot push. Overlord at 15, not 16 or *gasp* 18 Once I have enough gas, pull the drones and put on minerals Try 2 crawlers, 1 in the mineral line right when I see the 2 gate
Thanks again! I'll report back after I implement all the advice.
-Angelus
Gogo! I think once you fix that you are going to be in good shape! (diamond-like).
Also, 5rr isn't really necessary. 55rr would be a easy win against a 2 gate or the way your opponents played those games.
If you want to try 5rr i recomend you to get your timing really good with it because if u mess up ur probably going to be in a disadvantage.
On September 06 2010 13:32 whomybuddy wrote: lings are better than zealots if you can mass them. It's very easy for slings to surround zealots. You can't make roaches fast enough against 2 gate zealots.
You very well can get roaches fast enough against a 2gate. I would recommend http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3830055/ day9 daily 149 where he is showing WhiteRa 2gating. Watch what the zerg players do to defend once they see the 2gate. Of course, the zerg players lose in the end because the daily is about WhiteRa. . . but you can definitely glean some zerg information.
I prefer getting 3-4 roaches to counter the zealots then quickly expand. A usual 2gate will have him with no gas early on, so you'll have the superior force to hold your expansion for a bit. However, you're going to need to poke into his base to find out what he is transitioning to in order to react appropriately.
On September 06 2010 14:31 zealotz55 wrote: zerg players: You seem to have this pretty under control...
I no longer rely on 2 gate or 4 warp gate pressure to do any significant damage to zergs (unless its a backdoor map)
I don't think its very hard for good zergs to stop either of these builds that's why I don't do them much anymore. (FFE is much better imo)
so do you zerg players think the zealot build time nerf proposed in 1.1 is actually needed?
well i still see top players flat out die or heavily hurt to 4gates all the time.
and it still happens alot to me since there is no safe way to play against it(and i also win the majority of my pvz games with 4gates). but i kinda accepted that earlygame zvp is just totally random.
that said i dont think the zeal gate is super necessary. atleast not if we had better maps. 2gate into 4gate is just sick strong on steppes or any close spawns.
I just laddered two games that were exactly this. I easily defended the two gate pressure HANDILY with 2 zerglings loss from both games. Then i get absolutly destroyed by 4 gate. on scrapstation the shortcut through the rocks is so strong...
The problem isn't the initial push. With enough spines, zerglings, or roaches, the first 3-4 zealots are dealt with handily. The problem is when for protoss, the 4 gates pop into warp gates, and I'm still stuck on one base. If that happens, it's as good as GG.
Because the 4-gate so handily spends your money, and that your macro mechanic doesn't have an inverse relationship of workers to army, this favors Protoss. I know it's BEATABLE but the shear amount of work is ridiculous on the Zerg's part especially when the Protoss player only needs about 40APM to use this opener effectively.
This is always the reason why I think you find a lot of sloppy mechanics in low Protoss and Terran Diamond players, but the Zergs up there are pretty mechanically sound.
.............1 base zerg vs 1 base toss isn't GG. I mean you gain the same amount of mineral and gas. You only lose because you have bad macro and slow tech or not enough army. You can have an extra hatchery nearby your main for extra lava to produce more lings. Just try to tech to hydra fast and you'll be fine expanding later.
I had alot of trouble with the exact same build. It is kind of difficult. But just get a P practice partner and you will solve it.
What I do is just survive with lings/queens for the 2gate, then as soon as I feel comfortable/safe I set up my nat (often before the zealots are dead, as long as they are not in a pos to annoy).
Then I tech for roach warren + lair, and get alot of roaches (along with my speedlings), and 3 spine crawlers. Try to tech towards roach speed when you feel you got the resources for it. Keep a healthy mix of roach/ling it is suck a powerful combo against all t1/1.5 from P, Then as soon as you push back his 4gate and you got roach speed, just mass up another round of roaches and kill his expansion (it should be on the way/finished by then). Then poke up with lings at ramp, not to much cause of FF. If he is weak, go for the kill. if not expand, and get burrow + burrow move for roaches, to counter his colossus/HT (colossus by means of burrowing under them, and HT by negating the storm damage with burrow health regen).
Only thing you must watch out for is void rays, remember early to get an extra queen, so that you got 3 total, to handle a fast void ray. He shouldnt be abel to amass more then 1 void ray without you scouting it. In which case you make more queens and throw down a hydra den.
Remember upgrades, and macro and it should be fine. Keep teching towards t3.
On September 06 2010 16:25 AngelusH wrote: The problem isn't the initial push. With enough spines, zerglings, or roaches, the first 3-4 zealots are dealt with handily. The problem is when for protoss, the 4 gates pop into warp gates, and I'm still stuck on one base. If that happens, it's as good as GG.
Because the 4-gate so handily spends your money, and that your macro mechanic doesn't have an inverse relationship of workers to army, this favors Protoss. I know it's BEATABLE but the shear amount of work is ridiculous on the Zerg's part especially when the Protoss player only needs about 40APM to use this opener effectively.
This is always the reason why I think you find a lot of sloppy mechanics in low Protoss and Terran Diamond players, but the Zergs up there are pretty mechanically sound.
BTW, I finally popped into Diamond!
For the SWARM
-Angelus
The whole point of the first 3-4 zealots isnt to kill you outright (but would be good if it happens). It is to either punish you for that fast expansion, or to STOP you from getting it.
1base vs 1base isnt bad, but you need exponentially more ressources to stop the next wave, especially if opponent waits and throws 1-2 collossi in there. Now tell me how you plan on getting spire + hydra den + any decent unit composition out of that one base. Sure, some really nice combat tactics can get you the win, but not always.
Then again, people keep recommending roaches vs collossi. Personally i cant make it work at all
GZ on Diamond!
On September 06 2010 13:27 ForDarkness wrote: personally people who usually mass lings fall prey to mass zealots. the zealots really rip through those zerglings very quickly and with proper positioning and micro they arent gonna let u surround and kill their zealots 1by1 keeping them bunched or in a line . but then again im in mid level diamond playing at 1.1k+ so maybe im just playing against weaker zerg players. anyway i believe roaches would be the answer to those zealots. those roaches really do very well against the zealots.
Roaches wont make it in time on most maps. or you have to sacrifice something to get them. Lings are there to kill once the zealots start whacking on that queen or spine crawler. Or thats the theory
PS Im on a large losing streak so maybe dont take me too seriously :D. Ruined my record of 60/31 to like 82/72 now
4 gate is quite easily scoutable. Check if there is anything spinning at his Cybernics. If he is 4 gating, you should have no hurry to lair. I had some troubles against warp gate pushes to have no trouble at all. Just make third hatchery at your main and mass up millions speedlings with mix of slow roaches. This will beat 4 warp gate with half-assed timings and control.
Very late tech can obviously hurt, but this is tailored to beat 4 warpgate and at least you can pump queens from 3 hatch and spam spores. Once Stabilized 3 hatcheries can pump so many drones that you can decide which point you wanna kill protoss who is desperately trying to take his natural or you can just expand more.
THIS is one of my games where I defend a 2gate zealot pressure into 4 gate push. We're both low diamond/high plat, so don't expect too much, but maybe it helps.
Basically I have come to understand that there is no reason not to take a fast expo vs protoss (except vs proxy 2gate of course). Your natural hatch will lose 50% of it's health, but if you stay calm and attack once you have enough lings you'll easily defend it.
There's no need to make spine crawlers vs a late (like 13+15 food) 2 gates, but you'll need the spines to ward away the later warpgate push. 3 should be enough, maybe 4 on maps with no chokes.
If I hadn't scouted his 2 gate (i.e. he goes a plain 4 gate), I would have made no more lings but pure drones up to about 38 food. Then make nothing but speedlings. This way you can have your crawles deal damage while your lings soak up damage until your hydras arrive.
I seriously think that I lose 95% of my ZvP, and the only ones that I do win are against absolutely horrible protoss players. The zealot nerf I feel is very much needed and couldn't come any sooner. I don't mean for this to be a thread hijack, but if anyone (diamond 800+) could post some replays of them stopping 2gate early pressure, and then also beating the upcoming 4gate I would very much appreciate it.
I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though.
On September 06 2010 19:58 aaroB wrote: I seriously think that I lose 95% of my ZvP, and the only ones that I do win are against absolutely horrible protoss players. The zealot nerf I feel is very much needed and couldn't come any sooner. I don't mean for this to be a thread hijack, but if anyone (diamond 800+) could post some replays of them stopping 2gate early pressure, and then also beating the upcoming 4gate I would very much appreciate it.
I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though.
ok, i think i have one in the last 10, i ll look for it
On September 06 2010 19:58 aaroB wrote: I seriously think that I lose 95% of my ZvP, and the only ones that I do win are against absolutely horrible protoss players. The zealot nerf I feel is very much needed and couldn't come any sooner. I don't mean for this to be a thread hijack, but if anyone (diamond 800+) could post some replays of them stopping 2gate early pressure, and then also beating the upcoming 4gate I would very much appreciate it.
I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though.
ok, i think i have one in the last 10, i ll look for it
Im about 1200, this was a ladder game, i think he even was slightly favored, not sure though
I almost never lose to protoss if they dont do some sort of tricky allin which i m not ready for or if they are better then me at macro and multitask
thanks for sharing that replay, but I have one huge problem with it: he was 12 probes ahead of you when he pushed and lost. There was simply no need to push, had he stayed in his base, expanded, got +1 attack and attack later, you would have had huge difficulties. 2 gate openings give the protoss early aggression with a really nice eco, so the Z is usually left behind (if he overcomensates) or just about equal in eco (if he plays perfectly and gets exactly the amount of lings he needs). It's the reason why I think Z should expand at 19-20. It's a great tank for zealot fire and gives you more time to build up lings.
But my win percentage vs protoss isn't great, so dunno.
On September 06 2010 19:58 aaroB wrote: I seriously think that I lose 95% of my ZvP, and the only ones that I do win are against absolutely horrible protoss players. The zealot nerf I feel is very much needed and couldn't come any sooner. I don't mean for this to be a thread hijack, but if anyone (diamond 800+) could post some replays of them stopping 2gate early pressure, and then also beating the upcoming 4gate I would very much appreciate it.
I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though.
ok, i think i have one in the last 10, i ll look for it
Im about 1200, this was a ladder game, i think he even was slightly favored, not sure though
I almost never lose to protoss if they dont do some sort of tricky allin which i m not ready for or if they are better then me at macro and multitask
I will download this later. IIRC you suggested speed first and then +1 carapace in the other thread. I'm very curious how you actually pull this off. THe only games I lose to toss are when they 2 gate or do soething completely creative. I haven't had much experience at all versus 2 gate or 4gating tosses so far.
When I tried to mass lings though I just couldn't get enough in time to kill his initial 3-4 which quickly piled up. I'm just wondering if this works on close positions or on say Steppes. I really have no clue about the timing of how to do this. Hatch before queen? Mass lings before hatch? Etc.
ETA: Please reupload it. The limit has been reached for downloading.
You can easily defend 2 gate with speedling. Go gas 13 pool 13 and get speed as soon as you have 100 gas and pull workers off gas and don't put them back on until you have successfully defended. Pump speedlings and expand and continue to scout. If you see a 4 gate coming put up 2-4 spine crawlers. Pump drones until the last possible moment (just going to have to experiment to learn 4 gate timing) and by then you will either have hydras out or just pure speedling. If you do it correctly you can defend with just speedlings, queens, and crawlers then once you defend that push tech to hydra or muta and you will have such an economic lead that the game will essentially be yours. I used to have trouble with 2 gate into 4 gate as well but I've learned this is the best way to deal with it, at least at my level (950-1000 diamond).
One map I still occasionally have trouble on is Blistering sands if your opponent abuses the back door. One thing you can do is put a couple spines at the top of your destr. rock entrance or tech to hydra faster.
On September 06 2010 19:58 aaroB wrote: I seriously think that I lose 95% of my ZvP, and the only ones that I do win are against absolutely horrible protoss players. The zealot nerf I feel is very much needed and couldn't come any sooner. I don't mean for this to be a thread hijack, but if anyone (diamond 800+) could post some replays of them stopping 2gate early pressure, and then also beating the upcoming 4gate I would very much appreciate it.
I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though.
9 ovie 14 gas 14 pool 15 ovie Queen + Metallic boost + 6 lings 20 expand
I make the 6 lings to go up his ramp, scout what he is doing, I expand after I make the lings too. I then get a roach warren, I make an extra queen, and I have a ling at the bottom of the ramp, constantly peeking up, and one ling just sitting around the map, usually the center xel-naga. You can hold off a 2 gate no problem. just keep producing lings, and when you have enough money left over, go get your natural expo.
I then drone up, and get to around 34ish, and connect the creep from my natural to my main, I get 2-3 spine crawlers, if I've confirmed a 4 gate, I then get lair, all gas on roaches, rest on speedlings. This holds of a 2 gate if he does it, and holds of a 4 gate push. You have to be aware of what he is doing, if you see the cyber core chrono boosted, thats a 4 gate push, if you don't see it, sac the ovie you should have nearby that you sent early game.
I then go spire, and get that gas, if the toss was playing conservative, he would expand, you should be producing alot of lings and have a another ling party away for the flank if he does hit you. The spine crawlers, and the lings can take out mostly everything, avoid attacking in a choke, and you can make roaches.
When your spire pops, you should easily gain map control if he hasn't scouted, you harass his mineral line back and forth from his expo and his main, and you get your third. from their on, you should keep scouting, saturating expo's, and teching to hive, make upgrades, and get brood lords or ultras. Your choice. You keep delaying him with the muta's and keep using your gas on your muta's rest on drones + lings(if needed), and agian. I can not stress how many lings you need, you need to make alot.
MAKE SURE IF HE ATTACKS< DON"T JUST ATTACK MOVE FLANK AROUND CHOKES AND WAIT FOR HIM TO COME IN A OPEN AREA, AND THEN A MOVE.
My friend whose 700 point toss, does this 6 zealot, 3 sentry push, this dominates just pure ling, so I always get roach. when I see alot of zealots. Apparently nony does it.
On September 06 2010 19:58 aaroB wrote: I seriously think that I lose 95% of my ZvP, and the only ones that I do win are against absolutely horrible protoss players. The zealot nerf I feel is very much needed and couldn't come any sooner. I don't mean for this to be a thread hijack, but if anyone (diamond 800+) could post some replays of them stopping 2gate early pressure, and then also beating the upcoming 4gate I would very much appreciate it.
I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though.
ok, i think i have one in the last 10, i ll look for it
Im about 1200, this was a ladder game, i think he even was slightly favored, not sure though
I almost never lose to protoss if they dont do some sort of tricky allin which i m not ready for or if they are better then me at macro and multitask
thanks for sharing that replay, but I have one huge problem with it: he was 12 probes ahead of you when he pushed and lost. There was simply no need to push, had he stayed in his base, expanded, got +1 attack and attack later, you would have had huge difficulties. 2 gate openings give the protoss early aggression with a really nice eco, so the Z is usually left behind (if he overcomensates) or just about equal in eco (if he plays perfectly and gets exactly the amount of lings he needs). It's the reason why I think Z should expand at 19-20. It's a great tank for zealot fire and gives you more time to build up lings.
But my win percentage vs protoss isn't great, so dunno.
you are right that he didnt need to push. But ppl who 4 gate always push, unless they got maphack and know they should not. You can deny probe scout with 3-4 speedlings. And do note that if he does nto push or say he does and i dont win with a counter attack (i usually dont) you have 2 bases up with 1 qeens you can pump almost 20 drones in 1-2 minute and tech to muta. Im not saying it's perfect or anything, but i tried to think outside of the box because i got ownd by 4 gate too much, and this seemed to work for me. I simply love speedlings with +1 attack
"IIRC you suggested speed first and then +1 carapace in the other thread. I'm very curious how you actually pull this off." That wasnt me, rushing for +1 carapace is totally useless, +1 meele attack
On September 06 2010 22:05 mathemagician1986 wrote:
On September 06 2010 20:03 Geo.Rion wrote:
On September 06 2010 19:58 aaroB wrote: I seriously think that I lose 95% of my ZvP, and the only ones that I do win are against absolutely horrible protoss players. The zealot nerf I feel is very much needed and couldn't come any sooner. I don't mean for this to be a thread hijack, but if anyone (diamond 800+) could post some replays of them stopping 2gate early pressure, and then also beating the upcoming 4gate I would very much appreciate it.
I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though.
ok, i think i have one in the last 10, i ll look for it
Im about 1200, this was a ladder game, i think he even was slightly favored, not sure though
I almost never lose to protoss if they dont do some sort of tricky allin which i m not ready for or if they are better then me at macro and multitask
thanks for sharing that replay, but I have one huge problem with it: he was 12 probes ahead of you when he pushed and lost. There was simply no need to push, had he stayed in his base, expanded, got +1 attack and attack later, you would have had huge difficulties. 2 gate openings give the protoss early aggression with a really nice eco, so the Z is usually left behind (if he overcomensates) or just about equal in eco (if he plays perfectly and gets exactly the amount of lings he needs). It's the reason why I think Z should expand at 19-20. It's a great tank for zealot fire and gives you more time to build up lings.
But my win percentage vs protoss isn't great, so dunno.
you are right that he didnt need to push. But ppl who 4 gate always push, unless they got maphack and know they should not. You can deny probe scout with 3-4 speedlings. And do note that if he does nto push or say he does and i dont win with a counter attack (i usually dont) you have 2 bases up with 1 qeens you can pump almost 20 drones in 1-2 minute and tech to muta. Im not saying it's perfect or anything, but i tried to think outside of the box because i got ownd by 4 gate too much, and this seemed to work for me. I simply love speedlings with +1 attack
"IIRC you suggested speed first and then +1 carapace in the other thread. I'm very curious how you actually pull this off." That wasnt me, rushing for +1 carapace is totally useless, +1 meele attack
Why is carapace useless? Any decent toss is going to +1 attack and that makes zealots 2 shot lings. +1 carapace makes sure that doesn't happen.
The only real way to beat this is to rely heavily on spine crawlers. If you see a 2 gate put down 2 spine crawlers(you'll need them for the 4gate later anyway) use lings to bait the zealots into them, if the zealots are not a-moving then just attack them for free shots, and move toward the spines. Mass drones as once his initial 2gate push is dead he will usually wait for his 4gate. So this will give you a bit of time. Just throw down roach warren and pump as many drones as you can. Make about 4 roaches and keep on massing drones. Throw down 2 more spines(for a total of 4) try to tech to lair in the mean time. You should have two lings near his base, once at the bottom of the ramp, and one slightly further so that you know when he is moving out, and when he is just killing your ling and faking it. So when he moves out make tons of roaches, hydras if you have them. But mostly roaches as with roaches you want to bait them into your spine crawlers without him attacking your spines.
Remember you always want him to be in range of your spines when you are both fighting.
From there on you can just produce another batch of roaches or hydras(remember you always want there to be roughly 2 roaches for every hydra) and push out. Since you will have been macroing up then you can probably just push out and win. If you need to, send out another batch of speedlings as other units may take too long to act as reinforcements.
Basically what I do now is; Scout 2 gate -> means early 2-4 Zealot harass is coming Build a spine crawler next to your hatch (so it can't but surrounded and has a good coverage of your buildings and mineral line) When the Zealots come in attack with your Queen, never leave the creep, pull them in range of the spine crawler but never towards it (so they have to make a choice which one to attack). It might sound a bit difficult bit it's really easy. Any good Protoss will simply retreat, but if he doesn't you can kill off all his Zealots without taking more losses than perhaps 1 or 2 drones if you arent careful.
As for the rest of the build I follow mostly the 5 roach rush build but in my case, as I dont build any zerglings but a spine crawler, its different. By the time youre producing your 5 roaches build 2 or 4 zerglings aswell as they can be a big help against the first stalker you might encounter with your push. When you move out with your 5 roaches and 2/4 zerglings you can safely expand, dont overcommit to the push if it doesnt go well, its probably better to save your own units. When your expansion is up move your spine crawler to your expo, scout him (with a ling or w/e), if he's fully comitted to a 4gate push than you'll probably want to get 3 or so extra spine crawlers and a hydralisk den.
Note; I'm not an expert on this, as until recently I was struggling with it aswell, but I seem to have improved a lot.
On September 06 2010 22:05 mathemagician1986 wrote:
On September 06 2010 20:03 Geo.Rion wrote:
On September 06 2010 19:58 aaroB wrote: I seriously think that I lose 95% of my ZvP, and the only ones that I do win are against absolutely horrible protoss players. The zealot nerf I feel is very much needed and couldn't come any sooner. I don't mean for this to be a thread hijack, but if anyone (diamond 800+) could post some replays of them stopping 2gate early pressure, and then also beating the upcoming 4gate I would very much appreciate it.
I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though.
ok, i think i have one in the last 10, i ll look for it
Im about 1200, this was a ladder game, i think he even was slightly favored, not sure though
I almost never lose to protoss if they dont do some sort of tricky allin which i m not ready for or if they are better then me at macro and multitask
thanks for sharing that replay, but I have one huge problem with it: he was 12 probes ahead of you when he pushed and lost. There was simply no need to push, had he stayed in his base, expanded, got +1 attack and attack later, you would have had huge difficulties. 2 gate openings give the protoss early aggression with a really nice eco, so the Z is usually left behind (if he overcomensates) or just about equal in eco (if he plays perfectly and gets exactly the amount of lings he needs). It's the reason why I think Z should expand at 19-20. It's a great tank for zealot fire and gives you more time to build up lings.
But my win percentage vs protoss isn't great, so dunno.
you are right that he didnt need to push. But ppl who 4 gate always push, unless they got maphack and know they should not. You can deny probe scout with 3-4 speedlings. And do note that if he does nto push or say he does and i dont win with a counter attack (i usually dont) you have 2 bases up with 1 qeens you can pump almost 20 drones in 1-2 minute and tech to muta. Im not saying it's perfect or anything, but i tried to think outside of the box because i got ownd by 4 gate too much, and this seemed to work for me. I simply love speedlings with +1 attack
"IIRC you suggested speed first and then +1 carapace in the other thread. I'm very curious how you actually pull this off." That wasnt me, rushing for +1 carapace is totally useless, +1 meele attack
Why is carapace useless? Any decent toss is going to +1 attack and that makes zealots 2 shot lings. +1 carapace makes sure that doesn't happen.
if he goes for fast +1 mass ling isnt viable. He can chronoboost it and timing push you before you could get it. You should scout if he goes for +1 and choose a different approach, however i highly doubt 2gate into 4gate+forge is a frequently used build
On September 06 2010 22:05 mathemagician1986 wrote:
On September 06 2010 20:03 Geo.Rion wrote:
On September 06 2010 19:58 aaroB wrote: I seriously think that I lose 95% of my ZvP, and the only ones that I do win are against absolutely horrible protoss players. The zealot nerf I feel is very much needed and couldn't come any sooner. I don't mean for this to be a thread hijack, but if anyone (diamond 800+) could post some replays of them stopping 2gate early pressure, and then also beating the upcoming 4gate I would very much appreciate it.
I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though.
ok, i think i have one in the last 10, i ll look for it
Im about 1200, this was a ladder game, i think he even was slightly favored, not sure though
I almost never lose to protoss if they dont do some sort of tricky allin which i m not ready for or if they are better then me at macro and multitask
thanks for sharing that replay, but I have one huge problem with it: he was 12 probes ahead of you when he pushed and lost. There was simply no need to push, had he stayed in his base, expanded, got +1 attack and attack later, you would have had huge difficulties. 2 gate openings give the protoss early aggression with a really nice eco, so the Z is usually left behind (if he overcomensates) or just about equal in eco (if he plays perfectly and gets exactly the amount of lings he needs). It's the reason why I think Z should expand at 19-20. It's a great tank for zealot fire and gives you more time to build up lings.
But my win percentage vs protoss isn't great, so dunno.
you are right that he didnt need to push. But ppl who 4 gate always push, unless they got maphack and know they should not. You can deny probe scout with 3-4 speedlings. And do note that if he does nto push or say he does and i dont win with a counter attack (i usually dont) you have 2 bases up with 1 qeens you can pump almost 20 drones in 1-2 minute and tech to muta. Im not saying it's perfect or anything, but i tried to think outside of the box because i got ownd by 4 gate too much, and this seemed to work for me. I simply love speedlings with +1 attack
"IIRC you suggested speed first and then +1 carapace in the other thread. I'm very curious how you actually pull this off." That wasnt me, rushing for +1 carapace is totally useless, +1 meele attack
Why is carapace useless? Any decent toss is going to +1 attack and that makes zealots 2 shot lings. +1 carapace makes sure that doesn't happen.
if he goes a forge it's useful but if he doesn't +1 carapace makes no difference. +1 attack on the other hand is nearly a 20% attack boost for lings (fast attack speed). It all depends on the variation of the 4gate really. I encounter the standard eco heavy 4 gate much more often than the slower forge 4/5gate.
On September 06 2010 22:05 mathemagician1986 wrote:
On September 06 2010 20:03 Geo.Rion wrote:
On September 06 2010 19:58 aaroB wrote: I seriously think that I lose 95% of my ZvP, and the only ones that I do win are against absolutely horrible protoss players. The zealot nerf I feel is very much needed and couldn't come any sooner. I don't mean for this to be a thread hijack, but if anyone (diamond 800+) could post some replays of them stopping 2gate early pressure, and then also beating the upcoming 4gate I would very much appreciate it.
I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though.
ok, i think i have one in the last 10, i ll look for it
Im about 1200, this was a ladder game, i think he even was slightly favored, not sure though
I almost never lose to protoss if they dont do some sort of tricky allin which i m not ready for or if they are better then me at macro and multitask
thanks for sharing that replay, but I have one huge problem with it: he was 12 probes ahead of you when he pushed and lost. There was simply no need to push, had he stayed in his base, expanded, got +1 attack and attack later, you would have had huge difficulties. 2 gate openings give the protoss early aggression with a really nice eco, so the Z is usually left behind (if he overcomensates) or just about equal in eco (if he plays perfectly and gets exactly the amount of lings he needs). It's the reason why I think Z should expand at 19-20. It's a great tank for zealot fire and gives you more time to build up lings.
But my win percentage vs protoss isn't great, so dunno.
you are right that he didnt need to push. But ppl who 4 gate always push, unless they got maphack and know they should not. You can deny probe scout with 3-4 speedlings. And do note that if he does nto push or say he does and i dont win with a counter attack (i usually dont) you have 2 bases up with 1 qeens you can pump almost 20 drones in 1-2 minute and tech to muta. Im not saying it's perfect or anything, but i tried to think outside of the box because i got ownd by 4 gate too much, and this seemed to work for me. I simply love speedlings with +1 attack
"IIRC you suggested speed first and then +1 carapace in the other thread. I'm very curious how you actually pull this off." That wasnt me, rushing for +1 carapace is totally useless, +1 meele attack
How do you win in longer games with this strat? I was behind in drones all day when I tried it. In your replay you were too. But it was easy to defend the 2 gate and I like not relying on roaches.
Oh okay let me clarify. What do you do if he doesn't go 4 gate? But say, VRs or something? He's gonna have double your probes for a little while even when you skip the evo.
2 gate is easily stopped by a couple roaches, 4 warpgate is ridiculously difficult to stop, especially on maps with a backdoor like blistering sands, I'm having a really hard time figuring out a solid counter. Toss just gets a large army out so quickly and they can easily reinforce and tailor the reinforcing units to your composition.
On September 06 2010 19:58 aaroB wrote: I seriously think that I lose 95% of my ZvP, and the only ones that I do win are against absolutely horrible protoss players. The zealot nerf I feel is very much needed and couldn't come any sooner. I don't mean for this to be a thread hijack, but if anyone (diamond 800+) could post some replays of them stopping 2gate early pressure, and then also beating the upcoming 4gate I would very much appreciate it.
I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though.
ok, i think i have one in the last 10, i ll look for it
Im about 1200, this was a ladder game, i think he even was slightly favored, not sure though
I almost never lose to protoss if they dont do some sort of tricky allin which i m not ready for or if they are better then me at macro and multitask
Ah, thats a lot for the replay. It was quite helpful. Yeah I am a bit worried about the lategame though if I was to go as heavy on zerglings as you did, but I guess the more important thing to worry about is staying alive in that situation. I will try that out. Thanks!
4 gate is frustrating me also. The problem is, if you expand, they will be pushing right around the time your economy will start blooming. So you get hit before you can utilize your economy advantage.
If you do not expand, you will not have enough larva production to keep up with his 4 gates. Even if you manage this, you will be totally dead once he moves up to colossus tech, and you will not have enough time and gas to get corrupters.
Hydras are great against anything other than colossus and chargelots, but teching to them and getting them is very expensive, and you would just be getting your first few hydras at the time of the push, which won't be enough.
You definitely need spine crawlers to stop this, however, not all maps are suitable for this. Lost Temple is great, but some other maps have a big entrance to your natural, which won't let you create a tight spine crawler defense. They can just move around and kill the spines one by one.
Seems like the only way I can win against 4 gate is by greatly outplaying my opponent and taking advantage of any mistakes he makes. They always seem to have the upper hand by default.
@Lane - I finally got into Diamond (700+), but now 90% of my ZvP MUs are some 4-gate variation (1-base) and I lose to them 100% of the time. Dealing with this on maps like DO and BS makes this extremely frustrating to handle.
Like you said, Zerg must absolutely outplay their opponent with double their APM and have perfect battle sense to just be slightly behind after the exchange. *sigh*
I know you need to have 2-hatch to even come close to the production ability of the 4-gate, but when do you drop the hatch? My current BO against this is: 13-gas 12-pool 15-ov 18ish- drop a spine 22-24-ish expo
Also on maps with hard to defend expos, do you opt for the in-base hatch?
4 gate isn't as good as some of you are making it out to be. It's all about timing. Keep trying different things and figure out something that defends well then work on a timing push that comes before the first collo.
i think a good strat against 4gate might be to go to tier2 without ling speed or roach warren and get fast hydras. once hydra den goes pops the 4gate is a minute away and you throw down your expo and stop making drones. and for a small window you will have 7 larva every 45 seconds and 22 drones (16 min 6 gas) to compete against the toss players 4gate production (4gates probably produce about 7 stalkers/zealots/sentrys every 45 seconds if perfectly macroed
so that means you produce just mass pure hydra while your expansion is building and that can probably hold the 4gate since the zealots wont have charge
2 gas will give you 5 hydras a minute. meaning spend the rest of your money on normal lings. you will probably float minerals so once your expo is done you can use the extra larva on more normal lings
since you are on 1base early you could probably drop down 1 spine crawler early since its more food effective than lings and you can walk that to your expo when its done. the early spine crawler is insurance against zealot pressure. build 2 lings for scouting and if your enemy is attacking you with early zealots produce just enough lings to defend it with your spine crawler / queen (so about 3 lings per zealot)
the benefit of going this fast hydra build would be it also counter void rays. if you see collossi it would come later than the 4gate, after your expo pops. against collossi i actually think majorly pumping out tons of roaches with your hydras is a effective way to deal with it while slowly teching to brood lords
build would be 13pool (for fastest queen with good economy) 15gas queen right when pools done spine crawler while queen is building. 2 lings just to scout. build 2 lings for every zealot you scout attacking your main. lair right when queens done second gas when getting lair. keep 6 drones on gas to gather for hydras hydra den right when lair is done. drop expo when hydra den 50% get to 22 drones (16 minerals 6 gas) then stop drone production for army. mass hydras, get normal lings when you have no gas. once expansion pops, immediately try to get 16 drones mining the expansion minerals to make up lost income
ive started having really good results against the 4gate push while going mass slings with a few backup crawlers and then transition into hydra. The 2gate push is strong still, but i find i can fend it off well enough using 5rr or a crawler or 2 in the main and then move the crawlers to the nat. If the map has a backdoor it becomes more problematic but still defendable, just need to spread creep better.
800 diamond here, but I have lately been having great results vs P who 2gate into 4gate, or just pure 4 gate.
If they 2gate, they will be sacrificing economy, no doubt. I do a 5RR opening against P if I scout 2 gate, throwing down my expo right as the roaches are rolling out and then droning hard for the next minute or so. This period will inevitably have to be a transition for P too -- he just invested in a line of zealots running to your base which are now ineffective. He has to be behind on core tech a little bit, allowing you to drone up and research speed while you harass a bit with your roaches (or just play D if you are not feeling well about a push).
I used to always lose to 4gate because I was too anxious to get lair tech. Yes - hydras are great against gateway units but it just takes too much time. Roaches and slings are surprisingly good against 4 gate if you have enough and flank with your slings. Continue droning, mixing in roaches and slings eventually once you start anticipating a push. Start making fewer drones and go to lair tech...from my experience right around this point is when they will push. It is pivotal that you know when they move out, crank units while they are approaching, and flank well with your speedlings. Once you defend the push, you can typically go pretty heavy mutas as he will be expecting hydras, or hive tech or do whatever you'd like.
Really defending the 4gate is just timing and knowing when to drone and when not to. You probably feel behind because you are over-anticipating the attack and not droning when you should. Proper injects are also crucial so have you the larvae when you need it. Just my two cents.
900 diamond zerg here.. I've found that this entire match up is an entire crap-shoot. Baneling busting into mass ling wins me about 85% of my ZvP games even at my level as they usually don't have enough sentry to FF ramp and they usually shit themselves and pull probes to deal with early zerg pressure, usually ending the game within 5 min or so. However, this isn't full proof, as a good wall off or a decent microing of sentry FF rapes this pressure. When I'm not baneling busting, I'm beginning to favor expanding at around 20-21, but not droning my expo until he carries out his first attack. Also, getting 200 gas and spending it on +1 attk and ling speed is great, and then taking drones of gas until lair tech. This allows you to produce a ridiculous amount of lings (upwards of 60) by the time he attacks around 8 min into the game.
Micro is a big player, as if your ling ball gets FF zealots will just destory everything. Some games these strats work well and sometimes they don't. I still don't think there is a concrete solution.
I played Zerg since beta. Early on I constantly loss to 2 gate --> 4 gate. I learned how to stop the initial push and won most ZvP 'til I started playing people ~1,000 Diamond. I then started losing to 4 gate again.
A good P can 2 gate into 4 gate and keep constant pressure on the Zerg while taking nearly no economy hit and establishing an expansion for a comfortable, game-ending transition into Colossi or HT.
For this reason, I started playing P. I've won every PvZ so far with this build (despite only playing maybe 5 games total as P beforehand and going up against ~800-1000 Diamond Z's).
I don't personally think a perfectly-executed 2 gate into 4 gate is beatable by any perfectly-executed Z strat.
On September 08 2010 05:20 fenster wrote: 800 diamond here, but I have lately been having great results vs P who 2gate into 4gate, or just pure 4 gate.
If they 2gate, they will be sacrificing economy, no doubt. I do a 5RR opening against P if I scout 2 gate, throwing down my expo right as the roaches are rolling out and then droning hard for the next minute or so. This period will inevitably have to be a transition for P too -- he just invested in a line of zealots running to your base which are now ineffective. He has to be behind on core tech a little bit, allowing you to drone up and research speed while you harass a bit with your roaches (or just play D if you are not feeling well about a push).
I used to always lose to 4gate because I was too anxious to get lair tech. Yes - hydras are great against gateway units but it just takes too much time. Roaches and slings are surprisingly good against 4 gate if you have enough and flank with your slings. Continue droning, mixing in roaches and slings eventually once you start anticipating a push. Start making fewer drones and go to lair tech...from my experience right around this point is when they will push. It is pivotal that you know when they move out, crank units while they are approaching, and flank well with your speedlings. Once you defend the push, you can typically go pretty heavy mutas as he will be expecting hydras, or hive tech or do whatever you'd like.
Really defending the 4gate is just timing and knowing when to drone and when not to. You probably feel behind because you are over-anticipating the attack and not droning when you should. Proper injects are also crucial so have you the larvae when you need it. Just my two cents.
The critical flaw here is assuming he is making zealots. A good P who scouts fast roaches will simply make 1 zealot to block, get warp up fast and crush you with 4 gate stalkers/zeal/sentry. Best case scenario you stop his push, but at what cost? He's now at 30 probe to your 15-20 drones and is working on his expansion. Meanwhile you're frantically rebuilding to hold off another attack which may or may not happen while he's comfortably grabbing upgrades and moving on to Colossi or HT for the final push.
On September 08 2010 05:20 fenster wrote: 800 diamond here, but I have lately been having great results vs P who 2gate into 4gate, or just pure 4 gate.
If they 2gate, they will be sacrificing economy, no doubt. I do a 5RR opening against P if I scout 2 gate, throwing down my expo right as the roaches are rolling out and then droning hard for the next minute or so. This period will inevitably have to be a transition for P too -- he just invested in a line of zealots running to your base which are now ineffective. He has to be behind on core tech a little bit, allowing you to drone up and research speed while you harass a bit with your roaches (or just play D if you are not feeling well about a push).
I used to always lose to 4gate because I was too anxious to get lair tech. Yes - hydras are great against gateway units but it just takes too much time. Roaches and slings are surprisingly good against 4 gate if you have enough and flank with your slings. Continue droning, mixing in roaches and slings eventually once you start anticipating a push. Start making fewer drones and go to lair tech...from my experience right around this point is when they will push. It is pivotal that you know when they move out, crank units while they are approaching, and flank well with your speedlings. Once you defend the push, you can typically go pretty heavy mutas as he will be expecting hydras, or hive tech or do whatever you'd like.
Really defending the 4gate is just timing and knowing when to drone and when not to. You probably feel behind because you are over-anticipating the attack and not droning when you should. Proper injects are also crucial so have you the larvae when you need it. Just my two cents.
The critical flaw here is assuming he is making zealots. A good P who scouts fast roaches will simply make 1 zealot to block, get warp up fast and crush you with 4 gate stalkers/zeal/sentry. Best case scenario you stop his push, but at what cost? He's now at 30 probe to your 15-20 drones and is working on his expansion. Meanwhile you're frantically rebuilding to hold off another attack which may or may not happen while he's comfortably grabbing upgrades and moving on to Colossi or HT for the final push.
Sorry - I should have specified. Good scouting will let me know if he's making an expo and what kind of an army composition he has. Until he starts taking a second base, I assume 4 gate or some sort of large 1-base push (since this is pretty much his only option). If I DO see an expo go down, I drone much harder and throw down some crawlers in case he tries some sort of sneaky timing push while I get mutas on 2 base. And if he's 1-basing, I poke in with lings to see his composition...if it's mostly stalker/sentry, I pump slings and so on.
On September 06 2010 17:22 whomybuddy wrote: .............1 base zerg vs 1 base toss isn't GG. I mean you gain the same amount of mineral and gas. You only lose because you have bad macro and slow tech or not enough army. You can have an extra hatchery nearby your main for extra lava to produce more lings. Just try to tech to hydra fast and you'll be fine expanding later.
1 base toss/terran beats 1 base zerg like 95% of the time in my experience as zerg.
i'm not a zerg or protoss player (majored in Terran play) but my off races aint shabyb against 2 gate pressure jsut get an evo chamber up asap for the +1 damage zealots go down so fast then when they come in with mass templar/zealot/colossus army just send in your brood lords which outrange everything
Even the best Zerg in the world Cool aka Fruitseller almost lost to 1 gate stalker pressure into 4-gate on scrap (arguably a good zerg map) in the GSL. So it's no joke to hold off if well executed by the P.
I totally agree with JamieDukes and, as a 700+ Zerg player, it really improved my play : GET EVOS !!
...and specially the +1 attack on zerglings (if no +1attack for lots ==>+1 carapace), you'd be amazed by what it can do.
If you feel confident on the timing, u can even get +1melee before speed (risky). The 2 evos then complete about the same time and when they kick in, your zerglings are unstoppable.
On September 08 2010 06:21 teamsolid wrote: Even the best Zerg in the world Cool aka Fruitseller almost lost to 1 gate stalker pressure into 4-gate on scrap (arguably a good zerg map) in the GSL. So it's no joke to hold off if well executed by the P.
arguably a good Zerg map? Definetly the best Zerg map at least for ZvP surely. Btw i was shocked too that it almost killed him. But still, almost won still means he lost.
700 platinum (just got plat last night) so take this with a grain of salt:
But so far the best luck I've had so far against 4 gate is to try and expand with slings (+1 attack) and if he pushes right then, cancel and build the hatch in my main instead to try and keep up with production. At that point I just try to keep him on his toes (he normally gets an expansion up, but if he does I try to grab two). The amount of sling/roach/hydra with two hatches (and two queens obviously) has kept me up to speed.
The problem is I'm very scared of meeting more people in platinum that can play the 4gate a bit better
Okay against a pure 4 gate with a 1 gate core opening, it's relatively easy to defend with pure slings. The problem is of course finding all his gates (You don't want to be making a ton of slings and an evo chamber for nothing). But peaking in at the edge of his base with multiple ovies and running slings up and down his ramp will give you a better guess to whether he's 4gating or not. So once you know for sure the best build against that is speed then +1 attack. You just have to be very careful of a good FF user.
Against a 4 gate with a 2 gate opening things get trickier imo. Pure slings is a lot harder to pull off here. And after you defend his initial wave of zealots you're still dealing with a massive loss to your economy. He's been pumping probes this entire time while you've been making slings a spiney and getting a late hatch.
But is 5RR any better? Maybe. You actually do save more in the long run since roaches are so much more cost effective than defending with pure slings.
But I don't know it's not something I've drilled with practice partners yet. Can someone with more experience dealing with this give me some help?
As a protoss player who favors two gate into 4-warpgate play, I've noticed that two hatches inside your base can be an effective strategy. Build your spine crawler and early lings, then grab another hatch inside your main, preferably right next to your first hatch (for easier defense). You can build an unbelievable number of roaches and lings off those two hatches, especially if you get two queens. Just keep droning, and expand when you get a chance, transferring all the extra workers.
As theorycraft, I believe a double-expand while upgrading to lair could be an effective transition out of this, as the smart protoss player will retreat and expand when he sees your giant ball of death. I've never seen anyone try this, though, so I can't really say how it would work.
Hey I'm mid Diamond and can't offer you a super deep strat, but I'd advise practicing (preferrably with a protoss PP) spining your base with 1-2 spines depending on your confidence (1 does it for me) and then backstabbing with 6 lings and defending with your spine/queen/lings as they spawn. Because in my experience if you spine + defend with 100% of your lings+Queen, you overwhelm 2gate completely; however, this means you have room to send some lings to mess up his economy a bit.
This might be a little too much APM for high plat/low dia, but I'm sure you could pull it off. Also, don't miss ANY injects -- if you do that's hurting you way more than any 2gate pressure.
All of you people realise that 2 gate from a protoss only means he skips gas not probes.? he is not sacrificing anything to 2gate exept tech. well maybe 1 probe but thats it.
I like the idea of spine crawlers then do a run by that would in my opinion be devestating. Good call Vei.
Don't over-react (3 spinecrawlers in main would be over-reaction from just scouted 2gate ) and tech to roaches to hold off the 2gate zealot pressure. Hydras fare very well against gateway only armies so really look for your timings to plant your expansion and micro those roaches until the hydras pop out.
On September 06 2010 19:52 mathemagician1986 wrote: THIS is one of my games where I defend a 2gate zealot pressure into 4 gate push. We're both low diamond/high plat, so don't expect too much, but maybe it helps.
Basically I have come to understand that there is no reason not to take a fast expo vs protoss (except vs proxy 2gate of course). Your natural hatch will lose 50% of it's health, but if you stay calm and attack once you have enough lings you'll easily defend it.
There's no need to make spine crawlers vs a late (like 13+15 food) 2 gates, but you'll need the spines to ward away the later warpgate push. 3 should be enough, maybe 4 on maps with no chokes.
If I hadn't scouted his 2 gate (i.e. he goes a plain 4 gate), I would have made no more lings but pure drones up to about 38 food. Then make nothing but speedlings. This way you can have your crawles deal damage while your lings soak up damage until your hydras arrive.
You played well but the toss is really low imo, no forcefiel for his first push that gives you a nice advantage
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