EPTI am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though.
[H] ZvP can't beat 2gate-->4gate early pressure - Page 2
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aaroB
Canada89 Posts
I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On September 06 2010 19:58 aaroB wrote: I seriously think that I lose 95% of my ZvP, and the only ones that I do win are against absolutely horrible protoss players. The zealot nerf I feel is very much needed and couldn't come any sooner. I don't mean for this to be a thread hijack, but if anyone (diamond 800+) could post some replays of them stopping 2gate early pressure, and then also beating the upcoming 4gate I would very much appreciate it. I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though. ok, i think i have one in the last 10, i ll look for it http://rapidshare.com/files/417387089/2gate_-4gate.SC2Replay Im about 1200, this was a ladder game, i think he even was slightly favored, not sure though I almost never lose to protoss if they dont do some sort of tricky allin which i m not ready for or if they are better then me at macro and multitask | ||
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mathemagician1986
Germany549 Posts
On September 06 2010 20:03 Geo.Rion wrote: ok, i think i have one in the last 10, i ll look for it http://rapidshare.com/files/417387089/2gate_-4gate.SC2Replay Im about 1200, this was a ladder game, i think he even was slightly favored, not sure though I almost never lose to protoss if they dont do some sort of tricky allin which i m not ready for or if they are better then me at macro and multitask thanks for sharing that replay, but I have one huge problem with it: he was 12 probes ahead of you when he pushed and lost. There was simply no need to push, had he stayed in his base, expanded, got +1 attack and attack later, you would have had huge difficulties. 2 gate openings give the protoss early aggression with a really nice eco, so the Z is usually left behind (if he overcomensates) or just about equal in eco (if he plays perfectly and gets exactly the amount of lings he needs). It's the reason why I think Z should expand at 19-20. It's a great tank for zealot fire and gives you more time to build up lings. But my win percentage vs protoss isn't great, so dunno. | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
On September 06 2010 20:03 Geo.Rion wrote: ok, i think i have one in the last 10, i ll look for it http://rapidshare.com/files/417387089/2gate_-4gate.SC2Replay Im about 1200, this was a ladder game, i think he even was slightly favored, not sure though I almost never lose to protoss if they dont do some sort of tricky allin which i m not ready for or if they are better then me at macro and multitask I will download this later. IIRC you suggested speed first and then +1 carapace in the other thread. I'm very curious how you actually pull this off. THe only games I lose to toss are when they 2 gate or do soething completely creative. I haven't had much experience at all versus 2 gate or 4gating tosses so far. When I tried to mass lings though I just couldn't get enough in time to kill his initial 3-4 which quickly piled up. I'm just wondering if this works on close positions or on say Steppes. I really have no clue about the timing of how to do this. Hatch before queen? Mass lings before hatch? Etc. ETA: Please reupload it. The limit has been reached for downloading. | ||
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Uhh Negative
United States1090 Posts
One map I still occasionally have trouble on is Blistering sands if your opponent abuses the back door. One thing you can do is put a couple spines at the top of your destr. rock entrance or tech to hydra faster. On September 06 2010 19:58 aaroB wrote: I seriously think that I lose 95% of my ZvP, and the only ones that I do win are against absolutely horrible protoss players. The zealot nerf I feel is very much needed and couldn't come any sooner. I don't mean for this to be a thread hijack, but if anyone (diamond 800+) could post some replays of them stopping 2gate early pressure, and then also beating the upcoming 4gate I would very much appreciate it. I am a diamond 1000 Zerg for whatever thats worth, I honestly think thats still pretty crappy though. I'll work on getting a replay for you  I love ZvP | ||
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Twaxter
Canada190 Posts
I always expand late in games now, its like 9 ovie 14 gas 14 pool 15 ovie Queen + Metallic boost + 6 lings 20 expand I make the 6 lings to go up his ramp, scout what he is doing, I expand after I make the lings too. I then get a roach warren, I make an extra queen, and I have a ling at the bottom of the ramp, constantly peeking up, and one ling just sitting around the map, usually the center xel-naga. You can hold off a 2 gate no problem. just keep producing lings, and when you have enough money left over, go get your natural expo. I then drone up, and get to around 34ish, and connect the creep from my natural to my main, I get 2-3 spine crawlers, if I've confirmed a 4 gate, I then get lair, all gas on roaches, rest on speedlings. This holds of a 2 gate if he does it, and holds of a 4 gate push. You have to be aware of what he is doing, if you see the cyber core chrono boosted, thats a 4 gate push, if you don't see it, sac the ovie you should have nearby that you sent early game. I then go spire, and get that gas, if the toss was playing conservative, he would expand, you should be producing alot of lings and have a another ling party away for the flank if he does hit you. The spine crawlers, and the lings can take out mostly everything, avoid attacking in a choke, and you can make roaches. When your spire pops, you should easily gain map control if he hasn't scouted, you harass his mineral line back and forth from his expo and his main, and you get your third. from their on, you should keep scouting, saturating expo's, and teching to hive, make upgrades, and get brood lords or ultras. Your choice. You keep delaying him with the muta's and keep using your gas on your muta's rest on drones + lings(if needed), and agian. I can not stress how many lings you need, you need to make alot. MAKE SURE IF HE ATTACKS< DON"T JUST ATTACK MOVE FLANK AROUND CHOKES AND WAIT FOR HIM TO COME IN A OPEN AREA, AND THEN A MOVE. My friend whose 700 point toss, does this 6 zealot, 3 sentry push, this dominates just pure ling, so I always get roach. when I see alot of zealots. Apparently nony does it. only 600 diamond  | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On September 06 2010 22:05 mathemagician1986 wrote: thanks for sharing that replay, but I have one huge problem with it: he was 12 probes ahead of you when he pushed and lost. There was simply no need to push, had he stayed in his base, expanded, got +1 attack and attack later, you would have had huge difficulties. 2 gate openings give the protoss early aggression with a really nice eco, so the Z is usually left behind (if he overcomensates) or just about equal in eco (if he plays perfectly and gets exactly the amount of lings he needs). It's the reason why I think Z should expand at 19-20. It's a great tank for zealot fire and gives you more time to build up lings. But my win percentage vs protoss isn't great, so dunno. you are right that he didnt need to push. But ppl who 4 gate always push, unless they got maphack and know they should not. You can deny probe scout with 3-4 speedlings. And do note that if he does nto push or say he does and i dont win with a counter attack (i usually dont) you have 2 bases up with 1 qeens you can pump almost 20 drones in 1-2 minute and tech to muta. Im not saying it's perfect or anything, but i tried to think outside of the box because i got ownd by 4 gate too much, and this seemed to work for me. I simply love speedlings with +1 attack here s the re-up: http://rapidshare.com/files/417431703/2gate_-4gate.SC2Replay http://rapidshare.com/files/417432130/2gate_-4gate.SC2Replay "IIRC you suggested speed first and then +1 carapace in the other thread. I'm very curious how you actually pull this off." That wasnt me, rushing for +1 carapace is totally useless, +1 meele attack | ||
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Vexx
United States462 Posts
On September 07 2010 00:19 Geo.Rion wrote: you are right that he didnt need to push. But ppl who 4 gate always push, unless they got maphack and know they should not. You can deny probe scout with 3-4 speedlings. And do note that if he does nto push or say he does and i dont win with a counter attack (i usually dont) you have 2 bases up with 1 qeens you can pump almost 20 drones in 1-2 minute and tech to muta. Im not saying it's perfect or anything, but i tried to think outside of the box because i got ownd by 4 gate too much, and this seemed to work for me. I simply love speedlings with +1 attack here s the re-up: http://rapidshare.com/files/417431703/2gate_-4gate.SC2Replay http://rapidshare.com/files/417432130/2gate_-4gate.SC2Replay "IIRC you suggested speed first and then +1 carapace in the other thread. I'm very curious how you actually pull this off." That wasnt me, rushing for +1 carapace is totally useless, +1 meele attack Why is carapace useless? Any decent toss is going to +1 attack and that makes zealots 2 shot lings. +1 carapace makes sure that doesn't happen. | ||
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hadoken5
Canada519 Posts
The only real way to beat this is to rely heavily on spine crawlers. If you see a 2 gate put down 2 spine crawlers(you'll need them for the 4gate later anyway) use lings to bait the zealots into them, if the zealots are not a-moving then just attack them for free shots, and move toward the spines. Mass drones as once his initial 2gate push is dead he will usually wait for his 4gate. So this will give you a bit of time. Just throw down roach warren and pump as many drones as you can. Make about 4 roaches and keep on massing drones. Throw down 2 more spines(for a total of 4) try to tech to lair in the mean time. You should have two lings near his base, once at the bottom of the ramp, and one slightly further so that you know when he is moving out, and when he is just killing your ling and faking it. So when he moves out make tons of roaches, hydras if you have them. But mostly roaches as with roaches you want to bait them into your spine crawlers without him attacking your spines. Remember you always want him to be in range of your spines when you are both fighting. From there on you can just produce another batch of roaches or hydras(remember you always want there to be roughly 2 roaches for every hydra) and push out. Since you will have been macroing up then you can probably just push out and win. If you need to, send out another batch of speedlings as other units may take too long to act as reinforcements. | ||
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magha
Netherlands427 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150428 Basically what I do now is; Scout 2 gate -> means early 2-4 Zealot harass is coming Build a spine crawler next to your hatch (so it can't but surrounded and has a good coverage of your buildings and mineral line) When the Zealots come in attack with your Queen, never leave the creep, pull them in range of the spine crawler but never towards it (so they have to make a choice which one to attack). It might sound a bit difficult bit it's really easy. Any good Protoss will simply retreat, but if he doesn't you can kill off all his Zealots without taking more losses than perhaps 1 or 2 drones if you arent careful. As for the rest of the build I follow mostly the 5 roach rush build but in my case, as I dont build any zerglings but a spine crawler, its different. By the time youre producing your 5 roaches build 2 or 4 zerglings aswell as they can be a big help against the first stalker you might encounter with your push. When you move out with your 5 roaches and 2/4 zerglings you can safely expand, dont overcommit to the push if it doesnt go well, its probably better to save your own units. When your expansion is up move your spine crawler to your expo, scout him (with a ling or w/e), if he's fully comitted to a 4gate push than you'll probably want to get 3 or so extra spine crawlers and a hydralisk den. Note; I'm not an expert on this, as until recently I was struggling with it aswell, but I seem to have improved a lot. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On September 07 2010 00:26 Vexx wrote: Why is carapace useless? Any decent toss is going to +1 attack and that makes zealots 2 shot lings. +1 carapace makes sure that doesn't happen. if he goes for fast +1 mass ling isnt viable. He can chronoboost it and timing push you before you could get it. You should scout if he goes for +1 and choose a different approach, however i highly doubt 2gate into 4gate+forge is a frequently used build | ||
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mathemagician1986
Germany549 Posts
On September 07 2010 00:26 Vexx wrote: Why is carapace useless? Any decent toss is going to +1 attack and that makes zealots 2 shot lings. +1 carapace makes sure that doesn't happen. if he goes a forge it's useful but if he doesn't +1 carapace makes no difference. +1 attack on the other hand is nearly a 20% attack boost for lings (fast attack speed). It all depends on the variation of the 4gate really. I encounter the standard eco heavy 4 gate much more often than the slower forge 4/5gate. | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
On September 07 2010 00:19 Geo.Rion wrote: you are right that he didnt need to push. But ppl who 4 gate always push, unless they got maphack and know they should not. You can deny probe scout with 3-4 speedlings. And do note that if he does nto push or say he does and i dont win with a counter attack (i usually dont) you have 2 bases up with 1 qeens you can pump almost 20 drones in 1-2 minute and tech to muta. Im not saying it's perfect or anything, but i tried to think outside of the box because i got ownd by 4 gate too much, and this seemed to work for me. I simply love speedlings with +1 attack here s the re-up: http://rapidshare.com/files/417431703/2gate_-4gate.SC2Replay http://rapidshare.com/files/417432130/2gate_-4gate.SC2Replay "IIRC you suggested speed first and then +1 carapace in the other thread. I'm very curious how you actually pull this off." That wasnt me, rushing for +1 carapace is totally useless, +1 meele attack How do you win in longer games with this strat? I was behind in drones all day when I tried it. In your replay you were too. But it was easy to defend the 2 gate and I like not relying on roaches. Oh okay let me clarify. What do you do if he doesn't go 4 gate? But say, VRs or something? He's gonna have double your probes for a little while even when you skip the evo. | ||
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eH
88 Posts
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aaroB
Canada89 Posts
On September 06 2010 20:03 Geo.Rion wrote: ok, i think i have one in the last 10, i ll look for it http://rapidshare.com/files/417387089/2gate_-4gate.SC2Replay Im about 1200, this was a ladder game, i think he even was slightly favored, not sure though I almost never lose to protoss if they dont do some sort of tricky allin which i m not ready for or if they are better then me at macro and multitask Ah, thats a lot for the replay. It was quite helpful. Yeah I am a bit worried about the lategame though if I was to go as heavy on zerglings as you did, but I guess the more important thing to worry about is staying alive in that situation. I will try that out. Thanks! | ||
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Lane
United States46 Posts
4 gate is frustrating me also. The problem is, if you expand, they will be pushing right around the time your economy will start blooming. So you get hit before you can utilize your economy advantage. If you do not expand, you will not have enough larva production to keep up with his 4 gates. Even if you manage this, you will be totally dead once he moves up to colossus tech, and you will not have enough time and gas to get corrupters. Hydras are great against anything other than colossus and chargelots, but teching to them and getting them is very expensive, and you would just be getting your first few hydras at the time of the push, which won't be enough. You definitely need spine crawlers to stop this, however, not all maps are suitable for this. Lost Temple is great, but some other maps have a big entrance to your natural, which won't let you create a tight spine crawler defense. They can just move around and kill the spines one by one. Seems like the only way I can win against 4 gate is by greatly outplaying my opponent and taking advantage of any mistakes he makes. They always seem to have the upper hand by default. | ||
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AngelusH
United States33 Posts
Like you said, Zerg must absolutely outplay their opponent with double their APM and have perfect battle sense to just be slightly behind after the exchange. *sigh* I know you need to have 2-hatch to even come close to the production ability of the 4-gate, but when do you drop the hatch? My current BO against this is: 13-gas 12-pool 15-ov 18ish- drop a spine 22-24-ish expo Also on maps with hard to defend expos, do you opt for the in-base hatch? Thanks for the input -Angelus | ||
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Uhh Negative
United States1090 Posts
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ShadowReaver
Canada563 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Anyone wanna practice their 2 gate into 4 gate PvZ timings against me? I'm up for some friendly games. Static.342 | ||
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taketobreak
73 Posts
so that means you produce just mass pure hydra while your expansion is building and that can probably hold the 4gate since the zealots wont have charge 2 gas will give you 5 hydras a minute. meaning spend the rest of your money on normal lings. you will probably float minerals so once your expo is done you can use the extra larva on more normal lings since you are on 1base early you could probably drop down 1 spine crawler early since its more food effective than lings and you can walk that to your expo when its done. the early spine crawler is insurance against zealot pressure. build 2 lings for scouting and if your enemy is attacking you with early zealots produce just enough lings to defend it with your spine crawler / queen (so about 3 lings per zealot) the benefit of going this fast hydra build would be it also counter void rays. if you see collossi it would come later than the 4gate, after your expo pops. against collossi i actually think majorly pumping out tons of roaches with your hydras is a effective way to deal with it while slowly teching to brood lords build would be 13pool (for fastest queen with good economy) 15gas queen right when pools done spine crawler while queen is building. 2 lings just to scout. build 2 lings for every zealot you scout attacking your main. lair right when queens done second gas when getting lair. keep 6 drones on gas to gather for hydras hydra den right when lair is done. drop expo when hydra den 50% get to 22 drones (16 minerals 6 gas) then stop drone production for army. mass hydras, get normal lings when you have no gas. once expansion pops, immediately try to get 16 drones mining the expansion minerals to make up lost income | ||
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