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I think this is a fairly straightforward question: what is the best way to defend a well-executed 4 gate as Zerg given the following conditions:
1.) Teching to hydras is not an option due to time.
2.) You FE'd (but have not built any drones).
3.) Your opponent opened with 2 gate delayed pressure (5 zealots at once) and you have some lings left over, but killed all the opponent's zealots he sent at you.
4.) Spine crawlers are an option.
5.) You are not restricted to either roaches or lings, but must primarily use one or the other against a mixed gateway force.
Yes, this is a baaaaaad position for the zerg player, as it usually means GG unless they pull out a very well done play. I have seen both done, both with and without spine crawlers, and I am curious to hear what TL thinks about it.
So Zerg, tell us those stories you are secretly proud of, those times where you came back from the brink of defeat against the eerie Protoss armadas.
And Protoss, tell us of those times in which the Zerg showed their true tenacity of having their back up against the wall.
Poll: What is best for a Zerg player to primarily defend with?Pure Speedlings (225) 62% Speedling with Roach Support (85) 23% Roaches with Speedling Support (35) 10% Pure Roaches (20) 5% 365 total votes Your vote: What is best for a Zerg player to primarily defend with? (Vote): Pure Speedlings
(Vote): Pure Roaches
(Vote): Speedling with Roach Support
(Vote): Roaches with Speedling Support
Disclaimer1: The disclaimer below contains raging sarcasm, but the first sentence is true.
Disclaimer2: I am not asking for help, so I am not posting replays. I have seen it done in all these ways above, but I am pretty sure even being such hot shit (800 diamond!) my opinion is not the be all end all of this discussion.
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Ling/Hydra + 2-4 Crawler
If you dont give any arguments for 1. Hydras are no option due to timing i want to see a replay of that. Im pretty sure there are 4gate builds that are timed before hydras pop, but not everyone. Especially not +1Attack 4Gate Push because i defended against that one today with Ling/Hydra.
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Throw down spine crawlers, mass speedlings while teching to hydra.. gotta flank, and micro it well. Its best not to engage if you can help it unless you are 100% sure you'll have lings left.
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If you get plenty of roaches, sure they aren't great vs stalkers but at least they do OK, and they do fairly well against zealots. Zerglings, on the other hand, are not enough to stop a pure zealot force. I therefore always lean towards having more roaches than zerglings, because it takes really few zerglings to take down even a fairly decent sized ball of stalkers if you have spine support and you kill off all their zealots with roaches.
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zealot pressure > lings
roaches > zealot pressure
stalkers > roaches
roaches and lings + spinecrawlers (this varies a lot... check if P took exp or not after roach pressure) > 4 warpgate
Btw I my experience zergs tend to FE to often.. it just makes them easier target for me
I'm having hardest time when zergs makes 2nd hatch in main and once he's saturated main goes for 3rd hatch - exp
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In my experience zerg onebase is totally unefficient if the protoss decides to expand if he sees it after pushing.
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On September 05 2010 10:55 Bleb wrote:
zealot pressure > lings
roaches > zealot pressure
stalkers > roaches
roaches and lings + spinecrawlers (this varies a lot... check if P took exp or not after roach pressure) > 4 warpgate
Btw I my experience zergs tend to FE to often.. it just makes them easier target for me
I'm having hardest time when zergs makes 2nd hatch in main and once he's saturated main goes for 3rd hatch - exp
What league/ranking are you right now? I might have to try this 1 base 2 hatch strat if you're playing against high ranking zerg players
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I used to always rely on just spinecrawlers and lings, but more recently I've been losing to protoss who do a 4 gate with +1. I'm thinking you need roaches if they do this, otherwise lings/spinecrawlers should be sufficient.
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Russian Federation6 Posts
On September 08 2010 12:39 Aoratha wrote:
I used to always rely on just spinecrawlers and lings, but more recently I've been losing to protoss who do a 4 gate with +1. I'm thinking you need roaches if they do this, otherwise lings/spinecrawlers should be sufficient.
Or you just can make +1 to carapace instead of teching to roaches if you see 4gate and forge.
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On September 08 2010 13:41 Kyun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 12:39 Aoratha wrote:
I used to always rely on just spinecrawlers and lings, but more recently I've been losing to protoss who do a 4 gate with +1. I'm thinking you need roaches if they do this, otherwise lings/spinecrawlers should be sufficient. Or you just can make +1 to carapace instead of teching to roaches if you see 4gate and forge.
Are you sure about this? Whenever I tried this they push before its finished, since they can research it a lot faster with chronoboost. Also wouldn't you have to scout the forge before you lay down the evolution chamber? I have no doubt that you're right about it working if +1 carapace can be researched but I'm just curious to see how its executed in time for the push.
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On September 08 2010 15:28 Aoratha wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 13:41 Kyun wrote:On September 08 2010 12:39 Aoratha wrote:
I used to always rely on just spinecrawlers and lings, but more recently I've been losing to protoss who do a 4 gate with +1. I'm thinking you need roaches if they do this, otherwise lings/spinecrawlers should be sufficient. Or you just can make +1 to carapace instead of teching to roaches if you see 4gate and forge. Are you sure about this? Whenever I tried this they push before its finished, since they can research it a lot faster with chronoboost. Also wouldn't you have to scout the forge before you lay down the evolution chamber? I have no doubt that you're right about it working if +1 carapace can be researched but I'm just curious to see how its executed in time for the push.
What time does the push come? the fast I get ling speed and +1 carapace is 7:45 in game, and I had like 28 zerglings.
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just build a ton of spine crawlers...
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mass speedlings ftw 
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I don't see what you zergs think gives you the right to fast expand  .
4gate all day.
Mass speedlings < decent micro.
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How are you going to find his forge and react to it in time?!
Even if you spot his forge on the SECOND he throws it down (seriously that will never happen) his chrono will finish it much faster than you, and then your lings are worthless so if you tried to defend with pure lings you lost.
Are you forced to get +1 carapace in every game your opponent goes 1 gate core?...
Problem with hydras is they will hardly even pop before his guys come. And watch the replay; Z will be behind in workers AND army cost if you try to tech to hydras.
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Wheres the pure spine crawler option? But seriously, do toss really do this strat? I dont really know because I always counter attack on 1 base with fast roaches when I see 2 gate, so I'm not really in this position very often. However, vs a standard 4 gate, I usually go pure speedling with spine support at my expo...
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To many of those saying mass spine crawlers, I see quite a few times where the toss player will snipe crawlers unless you have 6 bunched together...which is one helluva mineral sink o.O And does not good for counter pressure (unless you are TLO).
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Why would any strat not contain roaches? Everytime I try to defend with Spines/Speedlings, I lose. Having roaches at least gives me a chance. They tank the front, generally take out the zlots and the speedlings move in on the stalkers.
Slings are way to weak by themselves to counter 4-gate pressure. I would love to see a replay showing spines/slings being better than spines/roaches/slings.
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just make a bunch of spines and lings
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spine crawlers ... i hate em.
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Generally vs toss i go a 40-50 speedling opening with +1 attack (i prefer this over carapace as making an attack into their base in an oppotunity it gets down their wall that much faster) and i have two bases up with 2 spines never really need anymore.
The big thing is to try extremely hard to micro your lings as in a ling gets a single hit run it away then back in straight away. If you can do this simple thing you save about 10 lings and it sways the battle.
Saying this i can hold of nearly every type of gate pressure (except on close maps where i get lings faster as majority toss sit on one base for ages).
The only time i lose is if they hide colossus and i dont see it and im throwing down my ultra cavern when they push then i just dont have enough.
I'll try and dig up an example of defending with just speedlings for you.
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I heard that the speedlings with +1attack are enough... around 50-60 speedlings °_°
shouldnt be that of a problem with 2 hatches ^^
I did not try it enough to tell you it works...
But as soon as i get into it, i'll wirte that down...
GL and HF
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Counter it with all-in +1 attack roach and speedlings
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On September 28 2010 17:54 Firesemi wrote:
I'll try and dig up an example of defending with just speedlings for you.
If you can find a rep. I'de really appreciate it!
I just started using Dimaga's Z opening which gets me to about 42 food with 9 roaches and and 14 zerglings. It's been working well for me vs. Very Hard Protoss AI (just started using it last night).
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Playing in silver league this is the most common protoss build I see next to 3gate robo (technically I think I'm playing gold/plat players but who knows?).
After several faliures to defend a 4gate with roaches and/or fast hydras I've come to the realization that a large number of speedlings (talking 60+ here) can hold off most gateway units and free up gas for mass mutas which seem to come just after the push.
Still haven't managed to figure out how the rest of the units figure into this combo. Roaches *seem* to be effective vs. protoss but I can't figure out how. Same goes for hydras. Sometimes they work, sometimes they just utterly fail despite no HT/Collosi being present.
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ive found if the zerg ISNT greedy against a 4 gate they do fine as long as they dont allow the protoss to gain to much advantage with FF.
If a zerg 2 hatches then just macros roach/ling unless they waste alot of units to FF or let me say get too good of a position i.e. behind mineral line. They do fine. Some zerg despite me going 4 gate attempt to do be greedy in which case they get rolled.
If the opponent is doing an all-in ish type timing build you have to do go macro to stop their build. You cant expect to econ vs a timing push and win.
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Both are goods but you can argue that pure lings is better all around because its also easier to micro,unless the P goes way heavy on sentries and zealots which is rare and will get super destroyed by just putting a few roaches in the army. Roaches will let you transition more safely to a more standard midgame and can react better to any templar rush.
Pure roaches is also harder to pull because of the way the natural expansion are designed, specially on maps like LT or Blistering Sands.
On a side, a LOT of crappy answer in this topic -_-
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On September 29 2010 07:34 mololu wrote:
After several faliures to defend a 4gate with roaches and/or fast hydras I've come to the realization that a large number of speedlings (talking 60+ here) can hold off most gateway units and free up gas for mass mutas which seem to come just after the push.
Still haven't managed to figure out how the rest of the units figure into this combo. Roaches *seem* to be effective vs. protoss but I can't figure out how. Same goes for hydras. Sometimes they work, sometimes they just utterly fail despite no HT/Collosi being present.
If you are doing this, are you FEing or 2nd hatch in basing? About how many peons are you working with? It seems it would take a little while to get ~60 slings.
After hating roaches in the beginning, I seem to use them more and more now as meat-shields and solid damage outputters. I hope that doesn't make me noob 
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I feel its fairly map dependent, some maps you can get away with less because of things like high ground (LT put a spine on top with overlord pooping creep or creep tumor and that will do so much damage, choke ur natural abit with an evo chamber and its so much harder break with another spine behind it. Other maps like Blistering sands, you almost have to go roaches (or mayb speedling if the attack comes super fast (first round of warp in) simply because they can just run around to the back if they cant break the front.
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On September 29 2010 08:03 KandLeMaN wrote:If you are doing this, are you FEing or 2nd hatch in basing? About how many peons are you working with? It seems it would take a little while to get ~60 slings. After hating roaches in the beginning, I seem to use them more and more now as meat-shields and solid damage outputters. I hope that doesn't make me noob
Generally FE on 15. Now due to my low league placement timings are really horrible to judge. A "4gate" push can come anywhere between 30 and 70 food depending on how horrible/good the other player is. This means guaging when to build slings is a real pain I tell you.
Before I talk about that more - I've found it's virtually impossible to get enough drones + roaches when you go roach warren after FE. Plus, it delays muta/t2 tech by a lot due to the extra gas requirements.
If the push comes at ~30 food I have a saturated main + 2-3 drones on the expo. I can get 20-30 slings here fairly quickly using larva spit and stockpiling a few lings (tends to be 8) ahead of time. Also I tend to drop 1-2 spine crawlers per default if I see anything that makes me think my expo might come under attack. Usually the 20-30 lings pop just as the push gets in front of my base (yeah, timing issues I tell you).
If the push comes any later, the pattern remains the same. However I tend to get a sizable ling army around 40 food for map control as it is so adding onto that to be ready for the push is really not that hard.
Overall, this is just one of those zerg is reactionary situations where sometimes you get too few, other times too many lings and adjust as necessary. It's really hard to give a general rule of "at 50 food get 60 lings" or something like that.
On the roach thing I don't have the faintest clue. I love the roach unit and find that combined with burrow they're very survivable (making them a really good invenstment - specially vs. P) however I can't for the life of me figure out how the hell to use them ingame. They just seem useless besides being meat shields. They also don't seem to combine with muta tech well as both cost gas and leave you very gas starved when you finally do want to get mutas out.
I should note though that I very rarely see zealot heavy armies. Against everything else, slings just appear to perform so much better and they're easier to mass in a pinch due to their really low cost.
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Not sure why bronze and silver players are giving advice. Is that desired by the OP? Perhaps it is...
Try Dimaga's +1 ling build. MrBitter made a post about it. It is excellent against Toss pushes.
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Who cares what units you have, 4 spines = lulz @ 4gate push.
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Toss have already adjusted to the dimaga build. Now they just mass zealots. I had a protoss push on me at 7 minutes with 12 zealots with charge, 6 stalkers and a colossus. There's no defending against that.
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Build spines, tech to mutas. Then tech to ultras and suddenly your ground army > wg army.
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On September 29 2010 12:11 Kikuichimonji wrote:
Build spines, tech to mutas. Then tech to ultras and suddenly your ground army > wg army.
On September 29 2010 08:40 MicroJFox wrote:
Who cares what units you have, 4 spines = lulz @ 4gate push.
Dont give advice if you have NO CLUE what you are saying.
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Osaka27132 Posts
On September 29 2010 08:40 MicroJFox wrote:
Who cares what units you have, 4 spines = lulz @ 4gate push.
Strat forum banned.
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Osaka27132 Posts
On September 29 2010 12:11 Kikuichimonji wrote:
Build spines, tech to mutas. Then tech to ultras and suddenly your ground army > wg army.
Not helpful, strat forum banned.
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forcefield counters roaches not stalkers. when u get speed and creep for roaches...they do well against stalkers pound for pound.
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I like going +1 ling (evo around 25, produce ling only at 30ish food until you got about 50) and if he goes robo or templar I get a third and get ultras and the timing works pretty well unless he pushes with one colossi..also keep upgrading lings damage/carapace and it benefits the ultras too
if he goes stargate you just get hydras and destroy him ...I haven't seen a case where it was very viable for the toss but I guess I might be wrong
I find it really hard, however, to stop 4gate on maps with many 'choke like' areas or ramps like Kulas Ravine, Delta Quadrant...so I tend to just lose on those maps I am really clueless on what do to except mass spine crawlers
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Fast hydras :D, i found they save the day alot vs gate units, when they start pumping col i get 4-6 curropters
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I'm a protoss player. If the Zerg doesn't have any spines, I win. You need 2-4 spines. With your scout, if you scout a 2nd gate before core, get roaches. If you scout a core 2nd, get lings.
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i personally am a roach user against the 4 warp gate push.
but really against 4 gate its just a numbers game. if you have more stuff then them you have a high chance of holding it off.
people can give all the advice in the world but the most valuable thing to do is to go out there and find people who can 4 gate you all day till your happy enough to say you can hold a 4 gate.
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A couple people have said Dimaga's +1 atk speedling build, and it needs to be said again; that build rules. I feel so comfortable when i'm using it. I'm still working on the transition though, because every toss I've played so far has just aborted the 4 gate and gone 3-gate 1-robo. Usually my spire is quite late and I hate going spire against toss.
I was thinking about the problem and if they introduce lurkers in HoTS I could see +1 speedling into ling/lurker being excellent against protoss.
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Stick to your creep, and roaches do "good 'nuf" against stalkers. Throw in some speedlings (don't make speedlings tank zealots!) and those stalkers are goin down!
But uh... if he opened 2gate into 4gate, his 4gate is coming a full minute later than a standard 4gate opening, 2 minutes later than the "korean all-in 4gate". You should have time after you kill his 5 zealots to drone up a bit, replace a few speedlings, and scout the front of his base with whatever you had leftover. Depending on the map, split your drones between the two bases and set up defenses at the natural.
Spines are a good emergency if you realize you won't have enough larva (you droned too recently) for his push, but you have to start them when/before he leaves his base.
I'd say get your lair up in the meantime, and you can transition to a lair unit or just get roach speed and push back with roaches (once they have speed/on creep, stalkers no longer roflstomp roaches nearly as badly - equal numbers = stalkers win, but the stalkers are also more expensive.
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i think mass speedling with some roach support is the best.. roaches will help take care of the zealots faster leaving more lings alive to fight his stalkers after but you will need to keep pumping lings to reinforce because they will die first so if u can get 4-7 roaches just keep pumping lings and u should be fine i usually get 2-3 crawlers too.
also.. if they just get mass zealot with +1 attack, your roaches can deal with zealots much more easily on creep.
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Just getting pure speedlings and MAYBE 1-3 spines at natural would be good enough to defend.
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On September 05 2010 10:55 Bleb wrote:
zealot pressure > lings
roaches > zealot pressure
stalkers > roaches
roaches and lings + spinecrawlers (this varies a lot... check if P took exp or not after roach pressure) > 4 warpgate
Btw I my experience zergs tend to FE to often.. it just makes them easier target for me
I'm having hardest time when zergs makes 2nd hatch in main and once he's saturated main goes for 3rd hatch - exp
I tried this once and failed horribly, my opp stuck to one base so i thought id try to be a tough guy and do the same and my confidence in my own microing+countering got me owned by collosus+pheonixes against my mixture of lings/hydras/mutas. 1 base is just not enough as a zerg player to be effective mid game, i had 2 hatches in my base too.
On topic, mass speedlings until you got hydras, soon as you start seeing collusus get muta support while continuously droning/expanding at every opportunity, pick off collosus/straggler units or harrass with mutas if you can. if he doesn't get collosus stick to hydras. either way, defend until you got 3-4 bases and tech to ultras (unless he suicides his army at you and you are sure you can win sooner)
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I havn't lost to a regular or +1 4 gate in a looong time (1600 z on eu) the key is to drone early on, generally I drone (with only 1 set of lings, 1 at a watch tower and 1 infront of his base) til 32-34 supply depending on map/positions, then I defend with roach/ling. Roach/ling is extremely effective vs gateway units, and you can simply go more heavy on either roaches or lings depending on if they go zealot or stalker heavy. You can also counter push and win extremely easily once you've succesfully defended.
Ps. Keep your lings and roaches on seperate keybinds, you want to make sure the lings are never fighting the zealots.
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On September 29 2010 16:10 Seala wrote:
I havn't lost to a regular or +1 4 gate in a looong time (1600 z on eu) the key is to drone early on, generally I drone (with only 1 set of lings, 1 at a watch tower and 1 infront of his base) til 32-34 supply depending on map/positions, then I defend with roach/ling. Roach/ling is extremely effective vs gateway units, and you can simply go more heavy on either roaches or lings depending on if they go zealot or stalker heavy. You can also counter push and win extremely easily once you've succesfully defended.
Ps. Keep your lings and roaches on seperate keybinds, you want to make sure the lings are never fighting the zealots.
Exactly. Once I got into diamond I rarely saw any 2 or 4 gate openings because I think most diamond protoss have figured out it is pretty easy to crush gate units with lings/hydra until collosus come out.
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I go for:
- 3 spine crawlers.
- 5 roaches.
- Speedling support.
Basically it's the 5 roach with speedling support push used as defense for expansion instead of early pressure. On big maps. On small maps, I try to pressure with it.
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What about maps with hard to defend naturals, or backdoor rocks? Spines ain't so good now, are they?
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It depends somewhat. He will come from one direction either way.
Queen at expansion always gets first energy used on creep for me. I try to position the crawlers in a position that hits if he tries to sneak by.
If he tries a runby, roaches + lings block it.
If he comes through rocks, you always position an overlord there, and you have to chose how to respond. Either way it does delay his push a bit, giving you more time. Also, it gives you time to use speedlings to harass him, and scout his exact composition. Lots of zealots, sentries, I try more crawler, lots of zealots, stalkers, more speedlings, if you saw a forge, more roaches... well it depends.
I sacrifice a few lings to keep in the path between bases, so you normally get advance warning for when the push comes.
I still prefer spines, because good force fields is the only thing that gives me much trouble, and crawlers handle that fairly well.
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Can someone pls link the "Dimaga +1 speedling attack build"-thread? I used the search function and couldn't find it.
Thanx in advance. =)
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Pure speedlings gives you tech advantage but for me;
I do roaches against zealots and speedlings against stalkers, since they are the correct counter. I balance each amount to my scouting info. Pretty simple. If it's a 4 gate I get a redicilous amount of spines, (6-9 or so) they are always useful later so I don't feel bad about that. About hydras I feel they are only needed against air, because you cannot use them to attack and colossus can always get out until you have creep all the way to his base, which is what you need to attack with hydras. If he dosen't go air I use hydras lategame to bolster my dps, but I don't rush to them to defend against 4gate ever.
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nice thank you...I will test this build out in my next ladder games against toss. ZvP has been my worst matchup for some time now.
How do you think this build works out against terran? Perhaps don't put drones out of gas...adding a baneling nest before lairtech and having some baneling fun...after that teching to mutas or straight to ultras? Hmm might give this a shot in ZvT.
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I must remind you that there are three different units than can come out of a 4gate: zealots, stalkers and sentries.
So it's a simple game of counters when I 4gate - if I see no roaches I'll do mostly zealot/sentry. If I see roaches I'll do mostly stalkers.
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Just a question here, would baneling be a viable option ?
I'm low diamant so i don't know if it works for me cause of my opponents. But i usually put down a Baneling nest with the next 50 gas after the T2 ( i don't pull off gas ) if i suspect any early aggression, and when i see him move out i scout the number of zealot and make some baneling to be able to handle that number.
I really hate roaches, they re so slow until you get the upgrade, and even then. I much more prefer speedling. But i find some huge difficulties when the opponent is going heavy on zealot, even if i get the +1+0 or even +1+1 cause i really need to dictate the placement and all, and if you miss the good time and engage badly you're pretty much dead.
Baneling are extremely efficient against zealot, and speed ling are good against pretty much the rest of the gateway units. I guess some good force feald and a good micro can handle that, but you can also anticipate that and force him to use his energy. I guess it's 50/50 and i feel more comfortable with that composition than with roaches.
Am i completely false here ?
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hmm hopefully this is helpful.. but i think speed roaches do pretty well against stalkers. we know that they do well against zealots too, im wondering if maybe teching to speed roaches + slings would be effective.. this is a great thread so far, pretty informative.
it is a bit of a "whoever has more units win" type scenario when it comes to speed roaches vs stalkers.. also if you have lair to get roach speed maybe getting the hydra den out asap would be better.. what do you guys think of slings+speed roaches to defend?
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Personally, I'd say 2 spinecrawlers (maybe 1 on blistering, static D is terrible on that map, obviously) and all lings.
Throw down your evo chamber at 20 food and start getting +1 melee attack UNLESS you see a forge, in which case, get +1 carapace. The scout (overlord sac) timing for this is pretty critical, I think you probably need to sac around 20. Stop producing drones at 30 food, and MASS zerglings, put down 2 spinecrawlers at 35 ish food. Continue teching to mutas or straight to ultras.
....even though ultras just got nerfed ARRRRGGGG!
sorry, sorry.
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MY experience:
I've had some success with just mass speedlings with +1 attack and trying to force him to use forcefields (heh...).
I just feel like I dont have enough units if I go roach with ling support (or maybe my micro isn't good enough), but I think it could be just as good. I just need to learn when to stop droneproduction!
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been working with +1 splings lately, it's pretty damn effective against 4 gate, I think splings are the way to go and save the gas for upgrades or tech.
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Yeah while it makes complete sense to go speedlings and then banes if he goes zeal sentry, I feel banelings suffer too much from forcefields. When I defend 4 gate I put much cash into static because he is on 1 base so I'm ahead. Plus spines are good against stalkers. What follows is probably a muta harass or nydus harass to stall and finally after sweating for a while I get up to ultras that I at this time really suffer to get asap. But I need to, because they are the only counter to forcefields.
On a sidenote I am really happy that most protoss dosen't use forcefields correctly, it's easily the strongest spell in the game
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surprised all u guys weren't giving love to roaches.
they actually take out a 4gate really well, esp with some speedling support.
don't u guys remember IdrA in the GSL? Game 2 that he lost because he was expecting a big push (yes i realise it wasn't a 4gate but was in very much the same vein) - how did he prepare for this push? pure roach.
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Pure roach is nice when your opponent is heavy on zealots, but I just don't like having roaches so early as I feel my push can't be strong until I get the lair + roach speed.
I go for as many speedlings as possible as they are really cheap and really mobile. 4 spine crawlers and an evo chamber + roach warren to block are always great. Sim Cities just need to be utilized better and losing an evo chamber isn't such a big deal anyway since you get broodlings if he's dumb enough to target it. 125 minerals for an extra defense is worth it imo.
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Replay
Here you go a replay as prommised. ZvP Lost Temple.
Things i know i could of done better, another spine (making a total of 2 like i said in my post)
Fighting with my spine instead of out with zerglings only.
etc etc. But its a good overview of how the build goes.
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personally i prefer roaches with 1 or 2 spines along with a faster tumor from queen, start shifting towards lings once they get more stalker heavy, using roaches and lings is the best.
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On September 29 2010 19:10 inTheMood wrote:
MY experience:
I've had some success with just mass speedlings with +1 attack and trying to force him to use forcefields (heh...).
I just feel like I dont have enough units if I go roach with ling support (or maybe my micro isn't good enough), but I think it could be just as good. I just need to learn when to stop droneproduction!
Usually when you have about three quarters to a page of drones. You want three to each extractor and three to each crystal. On a blue node there are eight crystals and on an orange one there are six crystals.
DC+DG=I
D=3
C=8 or 6
G=2
so for optimal harvesting on a blue node you want 30 drones and on an orange you want 24.
As far as defending against a four gate I am only a bronze player so I have no experience with this as of yet (mostly I'm pwning Protoss who think Void Ray Rushes are good, it's very easy to beat actually and I use less gas than they do for it too) I would rather overdo it in this situation and have a few too many unit's than underdo it and have a few to little. I would use a core group of roaches supported by any extra zerglings I could muster. Of course one should spread his or her creep in front of his or her base as far as is possible without threatening to lose a queen. From all the knowledge I have gathered so far I would say the battle should take place within the range of the Spine Crawlers, don't allow the Protoss to pull your forces away from your static where you will lose your advantage. At least one weapon or armor upgrade would seem wise. How far would one be able to spread his or her creep at this point do you think? I am also a strong beleiver in 2 Hatch Main. I suppose it is unlikely we will have Lair? Goin on the other comments in this thread.
Also what is "FE"?
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Replay ZvP 4gate
My last post isnt showing for me so here it is again.
Its a pretty good example of what to do, it was far from perfect and after i sent lings back to see he hadnt gotten his nat i kind of stopped continueing further steps so any questions on follow up or others shoot away.
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Also what is "FE"?
Fast Expand.
For Zerg, I suppose it would be expoing at ~15ish.
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On September 05 2010 10:38 Bair wrote:
1.) Teching to hydras is not an option due to time.
If you have good timing and manage your minerals/gas correctly, you can get 5-6 hydras as well as 2-3 spine crawlers before the 4-gate push. It may not sound like much, but it's extremely strong against the gateway units especially when you get a sufficient number and you can use the spine crawlers to tank the damage while your hydras attack from the back.
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skip speed + early gas in favor of 2cnd in-base hatch, this easily gives you minerals + larvae to build mass lings and spines. Speed does not help that much in defending. Delay gas somewhat and use first gas for lair and hydra. Using this build i sometimes even do not notice that P has gone 4-gate :-D. at 30-40 supply take exp
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On September 30 2010 19:35 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
skip speed + early gas in favor of 2cnd in-base hatch, this easily gives you minerals + larvae to build mass lings and spines. Speed does not help that much in defending. Delay gas somewhat and use first gas for lair and hydra. Using this build i sometimes even do not notice that P has gone 4-gate :-D. at 30-40 supply take exp
This seems rather specialized. You won't really know if your opponent is going 4gate that early so I don't really see why a build like this should be used in an average game. Delaying gas and lings and not getting expansion (or is inbase hatch your 3rd hatch?) just because you think P will go 4gate isn't really the greatest. How does this build handle various things. Phoenix play, forge FE, proxy/non-proxy 2gate ( Speed is a massive part of how you can pressure and deal with zealots, roaches won't be out in time because of late gas. How do you deal with zealots?). How does it go into the mid game?
I'd rather focus on a build that can adapt to everything than a build that is specialized.
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When I go fe i always gas steal on the P. After that go for speedlings with roach support no spinecrawlers. With no 2nd gas I can be sure no tech is coming so my lair is delayed. Also if he sends his 1st zealot to kill the gas I try to sneak in 2 lings to keep an eye on his build. Powerdrone while safe and than roach speedling depending on army composition.
Also try offensive 6-9 pools. They work much better for me right now than standard openings.
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Pure speedlings... I beat a zerg with 4gate who had 3 spinecrawlers + roaches in his base, just sniping workers and roaches with stalkers.
Pure speedlings beat me though... that was mostly cause of bad micro on my part. I noticed he had a 2nd base outside his main (he FE'd to the rich MF not his natural on steppes).
Instead of just parking like 2 zealots on the ramp to his base (I controlled the area from his ramp back cept his expand) and then a small group behind them to contain while killing the expand I just kinda sent everything.
This would be the problem with pure speedlings though is that if they see they are losing in your base and can get to the bottom of your ramp with 2 zealots, if they have another pylon close outside, they shoud be able to contain you for a long time, and force you to play one base while they are free to expand, even if you have too many lings for them to break your base. They could just keep warping in zeals stalkers and a sentry or 2 right outside and hold you almost indefinitely unless you use spinecrawlers, then just back to another choke and hold you.
Also, ya you can tech to hyrdras before the 4gate push starts and get a couple out. Decent benchmark (Ive been researching this a bit since I'm learning this strat... not all in 4gate zeal only but 1gas 4gate) is that the push will come around 7:00 minutes.
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Why not just watch how the koreans in the GSL hold it off?
2 spines, add more if the pressure is large, dance back and forth with near pure roach. Lair at the same time and get roach speed.
If you try mass ling you just get raped by forcefield. Holding it is more game-sense, feeling what you can get away with.
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On September 05 2010 10:57 peon.power wrote:
In my experience zerg onebase is totally unefficient if the protoss decides to expand if he sees it after pushing.
Then just go and attack? And stop him from expanding? While you expand, too? So youw ill always trade armys if he has lots of units. Whats the problem? And if hes bunkering with mass canons and no units, just go and take 3rd expo? He cant stop it without units.
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On September 29 2010 12:02 pwadoc wrote:
Toss have already adjusted to the dimaga build. Now they just mass zealots. I had a protoss push on me at 7 minutes with 12 zealots with charge, 6 stalkers and a colossus. There's no defending against that.
Attack is the best defense, just attack befor he has all that crap? Imho most zergs are to greedy and have this thing int heir head "i must pump dornes more drones otherwise iam behind and will lose" but then the got roflstomped by a 70 supply army while they have 15 slings and 2 crawler.
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On September 30 2010 20:51 JinjoBust wrote:
If you try mass ling you just get raped by forcefield. Holding it is more game-sense, feeling what you can get away with.
thought that too but it works amazingly well. you can bait forcefields all the time, the few lings you might lose are less worth then the sentry energy+the additional time to pump lings. also counterattacking is insanely good with upgraded speedlings. it forces units to defend making the push weaker, further delays it and youd be surprised how often Ps have nothing or only 1 zealot blocking their base.
yeah mass speedroaches work well. but the speedling opening does too and imho allows more aggression.
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crawlers + speedlings is the best followup to defend a 4g transition from a 2g. roaches simply cost too much to get in time and still can't compete with stalkers. like 4 crawlers + lings. tech to hydra meanwhile and use it to either grab ur third ASAP or 2 base push while he's setting up expo. Hydras must benefit you in one of these 2 ways before he potentially brings colossus in play.
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depends on the unit combination I'd say. 4Gate is pretty versatile, so he can be Zealot heavy, with Sentries, which will lead to a loss with masslings only...
I build the Roach warren always after I got my first 2-3 Spines up. Im watching for what is coming and try to defend with cheap lings, but have the option to get 3-5 roaches. Its just flexible.
I tried some games with fasttech Hydra, the problem is not to defend, because u can get Hydras out to defend the 4 Gate (skipping speed for quick lair), but your options to counter are not that great. Where is the point of defending the 4 gate ALLIN, when u cant punish your opponent or chase him? fuck slow Hydras  .
To sum it up:
Lings+Spines, but with a Roach warren up, getting roachspeed as soon as u feel confident.
If u fought the 4 gate of u have a ton of lings and speedroaches to punish the P for all ining.
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Depends how soon the 4gate comes and depends on the map as well. If the natural has only one path, and a narrow entrance (e.g. lost temple or blistering sands), I prefer 2-3 crawlers with roaches and some speedlings elsewhere. When they come, hopefully, I can fight with the spine crawler advantage and force them to fight and not back off, with speedling flank.
If it's a map with an open natural (xel'naga caverns or delta quadrant), I prefer to have around 4 crawlers, positioned more spaciously and more towards the ramp and a lot of speedlings, optimally 2 groups.
Oh, and always use 2+ queens and try to keep the crawlers alive for as long as possible.
I often find that without spine crawler support, my army was barely strong enough to deal with the initial attack, and when the reinforcements come, I slowly lose. Evo chambers in front of the spine crawlers work nicely if you have time before the attack comes.
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On September 30 2010 22:34 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 20:51 JinjoBust wrote:
If you try mass ling you just get raped by forcefield. Holding it is more game-sense, feeling what you can get away with. thought that too but it works amazingly well. you can bait forcefields all the time, the few lings you might lose are less worth then the sentry energy+the additional time to pump lings. also counterattacking is insanely good with upgraded speedlings. it forces units to defend making the push weaker, further delays it and youd be surprised how often Ps have nothing or only 1 zealot blocking their base. yeah mass speedroaches work well. but the speedling opening does too and imho allows more aggression.
Yes unless they go 2 gas 4gate (not all in 4gate...) and then they warp in at least 1 sentry per wave and can ff you indefinitely, unless you can stop him from making it to the bottom of your ramp by pushing him back at your expo.
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-_- Noone wants to watch my replay to see how easy it was? Maybe my opponent was just bad but it seemed to me he did everything right except block the counter but this was all about handling the 4gate in the first place right?
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On September 30 2010 19:35 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
skip speed + early gas in favor of 2cnd in-base hatch, this easily gives you minerals + larvae to build mass lings and spines. Speed does not help that much in defending. Delay gas somewhat and use first gas for lair and hydra. Using this build i sometimes even do not notice that P has gone 4-gate :-D. at 30-40 supply take exp
I also delay Speed vs 4-gate defense. I use the first gas for Lair, Speed comes second. I think Hydras coming one minute earlier is worth delaying Speed by 60 seconds. Am I thinking right, or is fast Hydra vs 4-gate a bad idea?
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Depends on how many you get. A good 4gate (not even an allin) can push into your base with 8 units with 3-5 hitting the front (if they got a proxy pylon inside) or hit the front with 11-13 units all at once (if the proxy is right outside your base) and then chrono all 4 warpgates and get another 4 units in around 15-20 seconds, and this push comes around the 7 min mark (the first 8 warping in and the initial push, reinforcements 15-20 seconds later, and around every 30 seconds after) from a good non all-in;
And 7 is only like a decent mark, Im not a good player at all and I can get 3 units + those 8 initial warp ins (2 waves) between 7 and 7:30 minutes.
Can you get enough hydras by then plus whatever else to stop that?
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I recently switched from Protoss to Zerg and I have not lost a single 4gate. I have Blistering Sands Blacklisted, though. (Almost lost once on Xel'Naga Caverns. Was a learning experience. Gonna use roach/speedling on maps where crawlers cant handle the spread in the future. Got his proxy pylon when he moved into my main, lost my whole army, but was able to mop up with next round of unit spawns, while he had to walk across the map.)
I 15 hatch, allowing me, I think, to have the income to beat off a 4gate pretty much however I want. I'm pretty sure just about any unit composition can do it, because whatever you make, the Toss player will make whatever is best against it. (Scout around 9 to be sure they aren't 2-gating, if you see one gateway building, a gas, a cybernetics core, etc, you're safe to expand that early. A chrono-boosted Zealot from a normal build wont hit until you have a spine crawler almost done building).
Don't make too many units other than drones until you know its coming. This can be hard to manage. Don't be shy about spine crawlers. They never stop being useful as Zerg, since you can move them, and can always place them where you're most vulnerable. Also, as a general rule, never let Zealots hit stuff. In Melee-range, Zealots are cost-effective against everything, even roaches. Kite. Run your lings away and attack his sentries to make him waste force-fields while his slow ass zealots catch up.
Use your few lings for map control pre-4gate. When I played Toss, I'd lay my proxy pylon down around 24 supply because I know that good Zerg will keep me from placing it later on. Scout everywhere for it. Get the probe when it leaves, get the pylon when they place it.
A lot of times, when they first attack, I run right past them, get the pylon, and then run back and attempt to kill off the stalkers/sentries while keep my lings out of range of the Zealots. The toss player ends up having to run their Zealots all around trying to get at your lings, as they get hit by Queens/crawlers. On that subject, I always get a third Queen around 30 supply for tumors and ideally a transfusion. In the few awkward stalemate situations I've had, where they have a huge amount of unit sand a proxy pylon just out of range of my base, but I have a ton of lings and crawlers, the Queens for their ranged attack when my lings surround something and transfusions really help.
If you want to be creative, keep in mind that the Toss player doesn't have crap in their base when they 4-gate. Either a complete wall-in, or one zealot on hold. I've gotten so many ling run-bys on 4gaters, many of whom cut probes, making every one you kill more effective. Theoretically, adding banelings and using them as part of a counterattack could be super effective.
After you beat off the 4-gate, they will usually expand. Spread your creep like a master and win with mass hydra and whatever else you can before they have time to tech (Roach/Hydra is best, but ling/Hydra is fine... pretty much anything as long as you dont let Zealots hit your Hydras).
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One small problem Ndugu. First is that, a lot of protoss (that I see) have more than 1 proxy pylon, or will have a line of them, or a couple, so even if you take out one and doesn't really defeat the effectiveness of it. They need to keep warping in pylons to support a 4gate that keeps bringing units in and most of the time they will continue making them in or near your base even before the first push.
Also, for ling run by's, if they are smart they have a zealot holding and a pylon on the edge of whatever cliff by ramp and will just warp in zealots below as well forcing you to retreat, or lose the run by.
Also, remember, just because you defeat the attack doesn't mean counterattacking is easy. If the protoss player is smart he will have seen he is losing either retreating what remains, or if he can't (like against speedlings) will just warp shit in at his base while you mop up and have it waiting for you where he can use his base and ramp to advantage (defenders advantage) and unless on something like steppes can prolly have just as much as you killed out already by the time you get to them.
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I personally make spines and speedlings while fast-teching to Hydras. After you get the Hydras you're pretty much safe. I still lose to 4gate at times though so I'm not sure...
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Has nobody mentioned a reactive play style? The problem with 4-gates is that they are quite diverse. Mass stalkers, zealot/sentry heavy, 33/33/33 mix, etc. The key, if you ask me, is to have a general plan, and then react to the composition of their army, just like zerg always has to do anyway.
Obviously, if they go mass zealot sentry, then pure lings, +1 or not, is goin' to have issues. Likewise, a roach heavy composition will lose to mass stalkers with a few zealots to tank/kill lings. So, I suggest a build that takes advantage of zerg's amazing production capabilities to react to your opponent's 4-gate composition.
Get a roach warren, get +1 on your lings (or not, up to you), and build some spines at your nat. Keep lings outside of your opponents base, and poke up periodically to check on his composition. If needed, sac an ovie. When he pushes, you will get to see the general composition of his forces. If he's heavier on the zealots and sentries than he is on stalkers, pump roaches until he gets to your base. If, however, he has a good amount stalkers, and not as many zealots or sentries, mass the lings.
The problem with posts I've seen, is that they all assume that toss has the same composition every time, which is not the case. I'm seeing far too many "But if they get blah" posts, which basically says to me that you didn't maintain scouting after you saw they went 4-gate.
Another note, you should always have a transition plan in mind. If you like to get hydras against a 4-gating toss, then keep that in mind! If you're scouting, you'll know when he pushes out. Start teching up, get a hydra den. If they go for a +1 attack, the delay will allow you to have that den up in time to pump some hydras if you feel they'll help. But again, this relies on your ability to scout and get the units that counter his particular composition, not a 4-gate composition as a whole.
Hope this makes sense and helps you guys out. 1100 zerg here, if that means anything.
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I think 4gate should be defined a bit more narrowly. For example, if they're adding a Forge and getting +1, you should have Hydras by then and Hydras + kiting on creep would be the best way. Zealot + good forcefields could theoretically get you, but hasn't happened to me yet. Sure, you could probably get +1 armor and still go with lings-- but why would you do that against a delayed 4gate? Roach/Hydra stomps gateway units, hence why Colossi get made.
And I find counterattacking incredibly easy because all gate-way units suck against Hydras unless you let Zealots get into Melee range. They will have a bad econ and bad tech. Wait for their expansion to finish, macro up a decent army, and kill them. Around this time, I'm usually creeped pretty close to their base and bring a queen with my push to finish up the spread. Perhaps at a pro-level 4gating isn't all-in, but the average person on ladder who 4gates is going to lose if it doesn't kill something. Most players GG after failing with the 4gate.
And yeah, there's usually more than 1 pylon, what I'm saying is make finding and killing them a priority-- along with the probe. Often they only send one. The longer before they decide to suicide their units on your spine crawlers, the longer you have for your superior econ to hand you the win.
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When I try speedlings, they just get completely pwnd by good forcefields.
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On September 30 2010 23:07 ch4ppi wrote:I tried some games with fasttech Hydra, the problem is not to defend, because u can get Hydras out to defend the 4 Gate (skipping speed for quick lair), but your options to counter are not that great. Where is the point of defending the 4 gate ALLIN, when u cant punish your opponent or chase him? fuck slow Hydras .
It's really difficult to counter anyway, you just drone up and go from there
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I never build spines against toss, 4gate is easy to scout and easy to defend with lings and roach. The roach vs ling count depends on what you scout. Lots of Zealots or Sentries = more Roaches, Lots of Stalkers = Lings.
Since they are fighting on your creep and you are constantly reinforcing it's quite easy.
Never get hydras to defend. Seriously. Check any DPS charts or cost effectiveness charts. They are horrible... and slow.
A roach hydra push later is another matter however.
Lings are the most cost effective unit in the game save for turrets. Second Zealot and third Roach. Lings surround and roaches deal the hurt.
Alternatively you attack/kite with roaches against zealots and backstab sentries/stalkers with lings.
I prefer a 50/50 mix mineralwise between lings and roach.
What I find most players do wrong when they FE against toss, is getting too many drones early. If you want to defend the 4gate and then counterattack for the win, dont get spines. When the 4gate arrives, I usually have around 10 drones mining at my expo and somwehere around 20-26 in my main. My winrate vs 4gate is like 90-95% now. If only I could beat the terrans so easily
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Oh and injecting larvae during battle is a MUST if you want the counterattack to work
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I can vouch for Dimaga build. First time I actually held off a 4-gate push!! (the only other times I beat it was without the push, and the silly protoss just sat his army in his base and kept on macroing...) I even made a cluster of 4 spines and the lings took care of the push even without the spines!
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+1 lings with spine crawlers are my favorite.
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Every time I try to use spines against an aggressive protoss they just take a couple stabs, bolt, then get a warp prism or blink research and fag their way around my line of crawlers, or just camp in front of my nat and throw down a pylon for warp bullshit. So these days I just use ling/hydra. It doesn't always work but it beats the alternatives.
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@Lavitage
The time for them to get warp prism or research blink after their initial push is a decent amount of time to know they are going set up an overlord/turmor perimeter to spot a warp prism/ blink spots, get another base and or macro up something else. Perhaps you need to work on transitioning, positioning, scouting, harass, expanding, macro and be less reliant on spines.
If they back off thats breathing room to go hydra/muta or macro up a bigger army. You also now have the infomation that they are getting additional tech or macroing until they feel comfortable breaking the spine wall. My suggestion is to scout with lings/overlords/mutas to where their army is. If it is sitting in the middle of no where you can macro an army bigger and take it out thus taking the advantage. Else you can tech to something that will counter stalkers/ warp prisms.
Also what dudemeister said about injecting being one of the biggest keys to holding it off is correct. You see them comming you have two hatches with 5-6 lava on each instant ling army before they can get there or your hydra/muta/roach den should have popped as their leaving to get a decient amount of those units. You'll be ahead a base otherwise their army wont be as big.
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On October 02 2010 06:26 Lavitage wrote:
Every time I try to use spines against an aggressive protoss they just take a couple stabs, bolt...
Move most of your lings out of your base. When Protoss comes in for the attack, follow in behind them. You want the lings to surround them within range of the Spines. With the creep extended out from your natural, you can see them coming right in.
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toss player here. You have to build a whole lot of speedlings before they become anywhere near bad against gate units. Speedlings rape early pushes. A 750m speedling ball can easily push back a 1150m 350g push with one spine crawler.
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FE with 3+ spine crawlers and lots of speedlings. All you need to do.
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It depends greatly in micro and the amount of units. mass lings or ling/roach, both are viable.
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Hey I thought with the recent patch changes (notably the warpgate research nerf and the more diverse styles from zerg than just roach/hydra) that this thread needed a bump.
Not to mention i just got slaughtered by an excellent 4gate... i admit it's been a while since I've seen a good one. I feel like this thread is going to be searched for by many more than just I, and it should be held current to the metagame.
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On August 05 2011 19:00 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2010 10:44 peon.power wrote:
Ling/Hydra + 2-4 Crawler
If you dont give any arguments for 1. Hydras are no option due to timing i want to see a replay of that. Im pretty sure there are 4gate builds that are timed before hydras pop, but not everyone. Especially not +1Attack 4Gate Push because i defended against that one today with Ling/Hydra.
Just getting this straight. You fast expanded, but have not had time to make any drones. You scout a 4gate inc and your reaction is to get a lair, hydra den, and 2-4 crawlers......... Am I understanding this correctly?
Let me get this straight. You dug up a year old post and started an argument about 4gates? Just make lings dude. 4 gate doesn't work anymore.
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On August 05 2011 19:04 captive411 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 19:00 tuestresfat wrote:On September 05 2010 10:44 peon.power wrote:
Ling/Hydra + 2-4 Crawler
If you dont give any arguments for 1. Hydras are no option due to timing i want to see a replay of that. Im pretty sure there are 4gate builds that are timed before hydras pop, but not everyone. Especially not +1Attack 4Gate Push because i defended against that one today with Ling/Hydra.
Just getting this straight. You fast expanded, but have not had time to make any drones. You scout a 4gate inc and your reaction is to get a lair, hydra den, and 2-4 crawlers......... Am I understanding this correctly? Let me get this straight. You dug up a year old post and started an argument about 4gates? Just make lings dude. 4 gate doesn't work anymore.
edited, didn't see date, thank you.
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To be honest i've not seen any successful 4 gates in my Plat level in a long time. I think Zergs are generally scouting alot better now and this is so easy to spot incoming and defend. for example i now always get a 3rd queen for creep spread (didn't used to do that a year ago). with lings and 1 or 2 spine crawlers ezee peeze. Also you don't have to make the lings untill you see it incomming so you can drone until then, hold off the push and you're technically very much ahead. i'm seeing alot more fast voids now that are a pain when going for a quick 3rd vs a FFE protoss.
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It's simple. After taking my expo, I check if protoss has any intention to expand. After a while (5:30), if they still haven't, I throw down a roach warren and keep mining gas. When and if the push comes, I make 2-3 spines, as many roaches as my gas allows, and lings with the remaining minerals.
I don't like defending with pure lings because if they have the +1, zealots simply melt them. Also, zerglings are very costly in larvae and as such are impossible to replenish in time even with constant injects.
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The way i defend 4 gates is 3 or so spines and speedlings. The key in my opinion is to have your speedlings flank from the the back to trap the army in so the spine crawlers can do damage.
If you don't flank with speedlings to trap them their army can keep on growing and growing and it is really hard to take it with pure speedling/crawler once it gets to a much bigger size. That is why i like to show them an empty natural with just crawlers and then flank from the back in the first engagement and almost always crush it.
That being said the follow up i usually do is to delay the expo with lings as long as possible while preparing for a huge hydra ling attack. +1 range hydras + speedling support is nearly impossible for them to hold after delaying their tech and econ so long by going for the 4 gate
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EPT
