EPTtl;dr what do you do against a photon cannon contain into a 4 gate?
ZvP photon cannon contain
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Darkmace
Denmark6 Posts
tl;dr what do you do against a photon cannon contain into a 4 gate? | ||
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
there is tech up to hydras with good saturation -> expand creep up and build spine crawlers baneling bust roach bust nydus warm i actually think the correct response is to pull 2 drones RIGHT as you see a forge without a gateway just for safety measures and hold position at your ramp. however, you might not be able to see this if it's on a 4 player map, so it's really hard to do. | ||
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Zuran
Finland12 Posts
EDIT: And that spew creep and spine crawler. | ||
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Darkmace
Denmark6 Posts
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Teeny
Austria885 Posts
You could just follow his scouting probe from the beginning on or place the 2. ovi over your ramp to see it coming. If you reach his base and see the forge building/already up rush 2-3 probes to the ramp and maybe you come in time. | ||
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Darkmace
Denmark6 Posts
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Darkmace
Denmark6 Posts
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
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ci_esteban
United States217 Posts
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
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Ash
Malaysia1978 Posts
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Darkmace
Denmark6 Posts
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Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
If you went with 13 pool no gas with the intent of expanding soon I think the best solution is a quick spine crawler near the ramp. Get a 2nd queen ASAP and put down a tumor which should give creep for your crawler near the ramp pretty quickly. This doesn't work on all maps offcourse as the ramp is sometimes far away from your hatch (like in steppes and blistering sands). On blistering sands a quick roach opening (throwing down the warren immediately when you see this happen) and busting out by killing your own rocks seems viable. On steppes of war I dont have a clue what works without a gas opening so it's best to not let it happen to you I guess (or open with quick gas). If you did have a early gas a fast tech to hydra's or muta's is the best answer imo. Hydra's just shoot the pylons and are a good unit anyway, with muta's you harass him quickly and with a fair number of them you can easily kill the cannon without real damage. Offcourse tech options only work when you have a reasonable quick gas, putting it up when you see it happen will be too late imo. Because a quick tech deals with this quite well I don't really like this strat as protoss. It was a gimmick strat mostly which stops working once people know how to counter it imo. Basically if the zerg quick techs (riskfree as his entrance is blocked anyway....) while droning up during the tech the protoss just lost 350 minerals and is behind in tech. 9 scouting and doing it only when you see a pool without gas is possible for protoss but there is too much risk the gas is put down just when you put down the forge imo. Immediately getting gas when you see the forge going up is also the best answer to this imo. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
On September 01 2010 20:38 Markwerf wrote: The best answer depends a lot on your opening offcourse. If you went with 13 pool no gas with the intent of expanding soon I think the best solution is a quick spine crawler near the ramp. Get a 2nd queen ASAP and put down a tumor which should give creep for your crawler near the ramp pretty quickly. This doesn't work on all maps offcourse as the ramp is sometimes far away from your hatch (like in steppes and blistering sands). On blistering sands a quick roach opening (throwing down the warren immediately when you see this happen) and busting out by killing your own rocks seems viable. On steppes of war I dont have a clue what works without a gas opening so it's best to not let it happen to you I guess (or open with quick gas). If you did have a early gas a fast tech to hydra's or muta's is the best answer imo. Hydra's just shoot the pylons and are a good unit anyway, with muta's you harass him quickly and with a fair number of them you can easily kill the cannon without real damage. Offcourse tech options only work when you have a reasonable quick gas, putting it up when you see it happen will be too late imo. Because a quick tech deals with this quite well I don't really like this strat as protoss. It was a gimmick strat mostly which stops working once people know how to counter it imo. Basically if the zerg quick techs (riskfree as his entrance is blocked anyway....) while droning up during the tech the protoss just lost 350 minerals and is behind in tech. 9 scouting and doing it only when you see a pool without gas is possible for protoss but there is too much risk the gas is put down just when you put down the forge imo. Immediately getting gas when you see the forge going up is also the best answer to this imo. 'quick' tech into what exactly? Mutas that will be destroyed by the cannons in P's base? | ||
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fams
Canada731 Posts
Send your OV over to where you think there will be a contain or proxxy push, and you can use a drone to scout the main. Then just place your OVs carefully at cliffs and stuff to watch for that hidden pylon. It is a lot safer, but you can respond quicker I find, to those proxy pushes and contains. | ||
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shawabawa
United Kingdom417 Posts
On September 01 2010 20:35 Ash wrote: u can finish 2 pylons with 5-6 banelings. make baneling nest as soon as you scout the pylon cannon bock Oh my god whatever you do, DON'T do this. creep up and get a spine to your ramp to kill the pylon, get a load of lings. The moment one of the pylons falls rush out with all the lings straight to their expo. This is how i've seen quite a few high level zergs deal with it. | ||
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
On September 01 2010 20:49 youngminii wrote: 'quick' tech into what exactly? Mutas that will be destroyed by the cannons in P's base? If they cannon their base the game is already over. 500 minerals spent on contain and another 300-450+ on static defense in their base. Think about this realistically. | ||
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Deleted User 47542
1484 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On September 01 2010 20:19 Darkmace wrote: I'll try the drone block thing next time, but just feels like it's a bit hard to predict a photon cannon contain, and having too pull 2-3 drones off harvesting that early is a bit crippling. While it is crippling, you have to think about the money the protoss invested. Say he built a pylon and started two cannons and you deny it with 3 drones, you will be in the definite lead. | ||
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simme123
Sweden810 Posts
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Inkarnate
Canada840 Posts
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Anselm
United States45 Posts
On September 01 2010 21:31 superbabosheki wrote: Just build a billion drones while slowly creeping up spinecrawlers in range, take natural and with instant saturation transition into a normal game. I think you missed the part where he said the Toss play all-in warp gated. I would suggest droning up but then watch for the all in and expo. I think the ling run-by/expo would be effective if he expanded but if he 4 gates on one base thats going to be rough. Personally, I have been dropping an extra hatch in my base vs terran and protoss every game and it has been working very well for me. I've only lost to early push wen they are somewhat all in (not to say they couldnt have transitioned into something else I had survived). Knowing this, I would throw down that hatch, drone hard and go straight for hydras. You should be able to know if he is expoing or one-basing by your overlords. With the two hatch in base and hydras, you should be able to get a large army off of one base and then push out with hydra/ling. With decent control (lings for the stalkers and to distract zealot long enough for hydras to do damage) You should prob be able to hold off a 4 gate push as well as be ready for any air he may throw at you. At this point taking an expo would be very safe. Obviously scout for colossus and move into air if you see them. Muta harass, even if it is later, is always a viable option against protoss. | ||
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BBMorti
Denmark242 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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kaleidoscope
Singapore2887 Posts
On September 01 2010 21:33 Tobberoth wrote: While it is crippling, you have to think about the money the protoss invested. Say he built a pylon and started two cannons and you deny it with 3 drones, you will be in the definite lead. and u have to consider that the Protoss can cancel their pylon warpings and refund so much more than what zerg lost it's like the BW version of T's 8rax bunker rush | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On September 01 2010 20:27 youngminii wrote: Say "I" if you're high Diamond and you have trouble with this. If this works I'ma do it every game (as Protoss) Idra. You only need one cannon btw. Tester did this ages ago theres no real big weakness its just good. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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Jonray
United States37 Posts
First you can scout this out. If I'm going for a cannon contain, I need my Forge to build cannons. Most other builds I'll be putting down the Cybernetics Core before the Forge. So if you scout the base and see the Forge going down first, expect this strategy. Also because of this I'll be a little slower in getting Warpgate technology. Which means that for a window of time you'll have a movement advantage over me. Second, keep in mind that the cannon isn't actually the most important part of that setup. Without the pylons, the cannon is useless. Also the pylons are what I'll be using to drop my army on your doorstep once I have Warpgate researched. Your unit AI will want to attack the cannon (since that's what is attacking them). Focus fire on the pylons instead. As a Toss player, it's actually really frustrating to see those advance pylons go down. If you want to Fast Expand to avoid getting totally contained, don't go for the natural. On most maps your natural will be right next to your ramp (which is where my pylons are) and getting to it is going to be easy. It's also where I'll expect you to be. Try finding another mineral field to use instead. | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
On September 01 2010 21:27 Ummbeefy wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 01 2010 20:49 youngminii wrote: 'quick' tech into what exactly? Mutas that will be destroyed by the cannons in P's base? If they cannon their base the game is already over. 500 minerals spent on contain and another 300-450+ on static defense in their base. Think about this realistically. I lol'd at this fucking ignorant statement. | ||
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
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Bair
United States698 Posts
On September 02 2010 00:58 TSL-Lore wrote: I've actually had a lot of success building a hatchery in the opponent's base with my scouting drone in a hidden corner, then killing him with some lings and a queen in his own base. It's both funny and effective. haha I doubt that works against anyone with base awareness. Like everyone said, a spine crawler to take out the pylons, but also fully (if not over) saturate your base so you have a high mineral count. Do this while building a second queen and dropping a second hatch in your main and mass speedlings while using gas on upgrades, banelings (for a zeal heavy 4 gate), abd/or mutas. Keep scouting, expo when it is safe, etc. | ||
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Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Germany2959 Posts
And I also build a second queen because that's always a nice thing  If you Drone hard and set up an expansion after your bust-out you should have a better eco even though he got an expo up a tad faster. I recommend NOT using your scouting Drone for a second Hatchery while you're still containged. I once did that and the Toss knew I had a Drone somewhere around and scouted it pretty easily. Keep that Drone for scouting. Because if he sets up a 4 Gate all-in instead of expanding you might be in a lot trouble when you're unaware. And never ever do a baneling bust against this, what a complete waste. | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
idra just killed the wall with a spine crawler while building nothing but drones. I think dimaga just droned up, teched to lair, and nydus'd the toss main with zergling baneling. I actually don't think this is too bad. They've opened forge, they throw down 350 worth of crap at your ramp, and you know they won't be attacking anytime soon. They also just delayed their nexus by 350 minerals. If they're 4 gating then they wasted 500 and delayed their warpgate research. I'm not saying it's a bad opening, i'm just saying it's not broken. | ||
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ensign_lee
United States1178 Posts
(1) baneling bust out of there, head STRAIGHT to m ybase with leftover lings,roaches and what not. You're going to have more troops than me. End game (2) play like you would with a 1 base roach strat back in early beta, then nydus into my base. Again, I won't have as many troops as you because I spent so much money/time getting a forge then sticking a pylon + cannons outside your base. Heck, drop a second hatch if you want in order to have enough troops. To preface, I'm 1000 ELO diamond. I stopped using this strat because against good zergs, it's a friggin' autoloss. I'm basically 3 minutes behind you all game. Oh, and I got proxy cannoned once with the zerg player sneaking a hatch on LT (didn't see the creep until it was too late) and just pumping out spine crawlers. lol. Was a funny role reversal getting proxy cannoned by zerg. :D | ||
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nokill
Canada1 Post
could you not just use 2nd OL to vomit creep on the ramp, avoiding this all together? | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
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Castaface
Finland34 Posts
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Morik
65 Posts
On September 02 2010 01:54 nokill wrote: first post. could you not just use 2nd OL to vomit creep on the ramp, avoiding this all together? The cannons come down WAY before lair, which is needed to vomit creep. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Its just a cheese strat that only works if the Zerg panics and throws units at the Pylons to die horribly. | ||
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onmach
United States1241 Posts
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KaienFEMC
Canada127 Posts
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
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Fumble
156 Posts
When my queen came out, i layed down a creep tumor asap and built a spine. Since it was only steepes of war, it took only 2 further creep tumors to get my spine to start poking the pylons. The entire time, I was planning for an all in roach attack. I used my 4 zerglings i had built to kill the unpowered cannon and lull him into a false sense of security. Right after though, i go in with like 10 roaches and 10 zerglings and I crush his 1 zealot, 1 sentry and 2 stalker army. | ||
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KeiQQ
United States113 Posts
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
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automocc
United States40 Posts
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
You got a really early gas, made some lings, put down a roach warren, started teching to lair... meanwhile you have just 13 drones compared to protoss's 19. When protoss does this, you know an attack into your base is not coming soon, you don't need to make all that stuff. Just keep making drones, push the creep forward, and send a spinecrawler out later to pick off the cannons. Basically just stay calm and execute your normal build, except make a spinecrawler or two, and your expansion might be delayed a little. | ||
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/35832 Its like the coolest way to fight this :D | ||
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dhe95
United States1213 Posts
If he builds cannons in his main, then go tech/expand | ||
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