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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
Since this is the only pvz strat at high diamond I ever see Id like to workout how to handle it on maps that dont permit spine turtling. Maps with a back door maps do not permit spines yet they are the only response I can find in every 4 gate thread. Moving them is not viable. There seems to be no way to beat a ball of protoss gateway units at that point in the game. Is the only answer catching them out of position before they clump up? 700+ diamond | ||
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Butigroove
Seychelles2061 Posts
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DracuL
27 Posts
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
The 4-gate is just a numbers game. 1100 Z. | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
Works very well. | ||
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
Injections are ok for me, I dont miss them until late game. But when I go pure ling guardian shield normally makes them totally ineffective. Do I need to bait this? I usually try to wait until the last minute to engage so I have max units but this is too late to bait anything. As for the quick hydra options. Whats the BO for this? How many gas do you need and do you get range upg or the extra 3 hydras? | ||
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whomybuddy
United States620 Posts
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 23 2010 14:19 samuraibael wrote: Pure speedlings fist? Injections are ok for me, I dont miss them until late game. But when I go pure ling guardian shield normally makes them totally ineffective. Do I need to bait this? I usually try to wait until the last minute to engage so I have max units but this is too late to bait anything. As for the quick hydra options. Whats the BO for this? How many gas do you need and do you get range upg or the extra 3 hydras? It's hard to give an exact BO because you'll have to customize your drone count based on your intel of what they are doing. 14 hatch, 15 pool I almost always do. Drone to 16, extractor, queen, OL, drone. Start mining gas. Queen finishes, get lair and start the second extractor. Get ling speed, and once the lair finishes build a hydra den. Hopefully you have spotted 4gate now, at which point you stop making drones and start making ling/hydra. Stay on 2 gas, don't invest in upgrades. If you get about 8-10 hydralisks and there's no push, you can start building drones again and getting upgrades, but keep an eye on his base for robo. Also it is smart to get an overseer to make sure he's not watching your entire army with an observer and scout. If you see a robo, contaminate it, even if it's a suicide mission, and attack. You should be able to run him over with this army. His army composition is very important. If he spots all the lings and goes heavy zealots, get a baneling nest and 10 or so banes, keep them with the hydras so they don't do anything stupid. If you see something like charge come on the zealots, then I like to go Roaches. Charge might mean HTs are on the way and you don't want to face HTs with ling hydra. | ||
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StupidFatHobbit
United States98 Posts
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
14 hatch 15 pool is pretty risky. Any cheese or a standard 2 gate will give them a straight bo win wont it? | ||
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Makavw
Croatia165 Posts
On most maps you cannot build spines due to wide open natural or backdoors. If you stay one base they will have way more resources then you, if you expo ; you need to somehow defend it. Pure speedling doesnt work due to zealots, pure roaches doesnt work due to stalkers . Combination doesnt work either since they can outmanuver you in combat with forcefields and superior range. You cannot go hatch first cuz 2 gate will lose you the game right of the bat. I still need to experiment with spending the 100 gas for lair to rush hydras ASAP , cuz if you spend first 100 gas on anything else then lair, hydras will be too late  . | ||
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
If you stay one base they will have way more resources then you No they won't, Protoss doesn't get any inherent advantage for resources that Zerg can't contend with. If you are going to stay 1 base you have to get a secondary hatchery to match their 4 gates though otherwise you won't have the larva. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=143291 some good suggestions there. I agree with both of these: On August 23 2010 13:42 Butigroove wrote: +1 carapace speedling/hydra is what I do when I scout 4wg, and it works very well. On August 23 2010 13:49 Fistdantilus wrote: Also, don't over-drone. If he's not making a move for an expansion and you see the 4WG, then you have to match his army. Get hydras faster, and get more zerglings until hydra den finishes. You're probably making too many drones and so you don't have a big enough army when toss breaks through. You don't have enough time to saturate both of your bases before the attack comes. After you survive the attack, THEN you can drone up. | ||
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Hikari
1914 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Even on a wide open nat I'll still build 3 spine crawlers. This way you can buy yourself some more time and can prevent the protoss player from just rushing into your mineral line or some other choked up area. | ||
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Logyx
United States14 Posts
Bainlings are your friend... that early in the game anyway. Also, don't fast expand when you scout a 4 gate. 1 base until you get muta, and then go muta-ling, expand, and wait for him to GG. Edit: To explain a little better. Bainlings will take care of his Zealots, and that frees up your speedlings go for the stalkers. Keep pumping those and weaving in drones until you can get spine crawlers up. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
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Ezareth
United States60 Posts
In reverse a good Protoss can correctly minimalize the damage of zealots by spreading them out. | ||
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Steamboatlol
United States161 Posts
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Jollyburner
Canada190 Posts
On August 23 2010 13:49 Fistdantilus wrote: More zerglings, try to bait the force fields before you fully commit. The better I got/get at my injections, the less of a problem it becomes. Also, don't over-drone. If he's not making a move for an expansion and you see the 4WG, then you have to match his army. The 4-gate is just a numbers game. 1100 Z. +1 | ||
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Setanta
99 Posts
On August 25 2010 06:33 Steamboatlol wrote: if you are using lings in your comp, you must must must have +1 carapace. I can not stress this enough. it's only going to have a decent effect on battles if Protoss went for a fast +1 attack 4 gate build (which is really strong), but due to chrono boosting you're not going to match his upgrade with carapace fast enough | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
I will do anything to get a reliable way of dealing with a fourgate on a map with close rush distances. I've tried tons of spinecrawlers - which makes the protoss sit back on his second base with me unable to attack him. I've tried teching to hydra's quickly and get a little less spinecrawlers - This worked on maps where I got a cross position or scrap station. I've tried speedlings - which get completely torn apart by any sort of zealot heavy four gate, and does moderately well against a mass stalker ball. Is it just me or are spinecrawlers really that slow in everything that they do? By the time they finished building I've died of old age, reincarnated as buddha died again. By the time the arrive to their next burrowing place I can order a pizza, watch the lord of the rings trilogy twice, and come back to the screen with that thing still burrowing. Pardon my rage and tears, it just happens that I lost all the protoss match ups I've had recently due to this build. And I would do anything for a reasonably reliable build order that atleast gives me a chance to defend the first push and retaliate. Its something I would love to improve on instead of pretty much auto losing when my spines barely havent finished building and the protoss just walking past them. | ||
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
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DracuL
27 Posts
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XdsZmX
21 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:22 Logyx wrote: From a Protoss player: Bainlings are your friend... that early in the game anyway. Also, don't fast expand when you scout a 4 gate. 1 base until you get muta, and then go muta-ling, expand, and wait for him to GG. Edit: To explain a little better. Bainlings will take care of his Zealots, and that frees up your speedlings go for the stalkers. Keep pumping those and weaving in drones until you can get spine crawlers up. I disagree. The 4-gate I use when I play as toss is composed of no zealots at all, and zerglings never get a surround, so banelings would not be any trouble(especially since it would mean less lings, which makes it even easier). Overusing on forcefields is also not a problem, since my first units I pump out after the initial zealot is 4 sentries (which is easy to afford when running double gas), so they get over 100 energy each, usually close to 150 (thats 12 forcefields total when I engage, far more than I actually need). The only thing I've encountered that beats the 4-gate is either 1-basing (on maps with backdoors) or FE with spinecrawlers and slings. Roaches don't very well due to the stalker/sentries, and sometimes are completely negated using forcefields (just like naked lings). | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21243 Posts
Other than that, I think it's just a numbers game as someone said. Zerglings are probably your best, and just try as best as you can to gauge his army size and match Zerglings. The key to defending 4 gate for me is to not over Drone. It's better to overcommit to Zerglings than to overcommit to Drones and die right to his first attack. Just be diligent with scouting...life of a Zerg :3 | ||
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Snackattack
United States15 Posts
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farseerdk
Canada504 Posts
1) The thing this loses to the most is lair before hatch builds, especially quick hydra builds 2) If you scout an early forge, get an evo chamber and get the +1 carapace upgrade, then pump speedlings. DO NOT let the protoss have higher attack upgrades than you do carapace or ur lings are gonna get 2 shotted. 3) Keep your force at your expansion, not in your main, or he's just going to FF and block you out while he destroys your expansion On August 25 2010 08:06 XdsZmX wrote: I disagree. The 4-gate I use when I play as toss is composed of no zealots at all, and zerglings never get a surround, so banelings would not be any trouble(especially since it would mean less lings, which makes it even easier). Overusing on forcefields is also not a problem, since my first units I pump out after the initial zealot is 4 sentries (which is easy to afford when running double gas), so they get over 100 energy each, usually close to 150 (thats 12 forcefields total when I engage, far more than I actually need). The only thing I've encountered that beats the 4-gate is either 1-basing (on maps with backdoors) or FE with spinecrawlers and slings. Roaches don't very well due to the stalker/sentries, and sometimes are completely negated using forcefields (just like naked lings). The counter to a stalker/sentry push is simply to engage him away from your base. He will FF and block your lings away from the stalkers, but if he goes that in the middle of the map, just pull back. He's also blocked himself out. Engage and retreat several times and cause him to use up all his energy. And eventually he will make some mis-micros with FF unless your opponent is like 900 pts plus diamond. | ||
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HardcoreBilly
United States222 Posts
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lovewithlea
168 Posts
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Yenticha
257 Posts
The most efficient thing for me has been well microed glings with carapace, poking his army, emptying sentries energy, buying time, etc, so that he doesnt reach my base untouched. | ||
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mathemagician1986
Germany549 Posts
Basically, I'm going the standard speedling expand: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Speedling_Expand while getting at least 3 spinecrawlers at my natural if I know he's 4 gating. If hel leaves me alone and I can get lair untouched I'm usually ok. But if he chrono boosts 2-3 zealots and puts pressure on me, I have to make so many lings, my eco will be bad, so I'll be stockpiling larvae, because I can't really support 2 hatcheries yet, while I have to make hydras which are expensive. | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
I thought Z pretty much relied on being ahead on econ to be even. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
The easiest way to get around the issue is to just revise your map list. Having spine crawlers available to use makes it soooooooooooooo much easier to fend off. | ||
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
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TobZero
Germany493 Posts
start with 14gaß 14pool build. its solid and safe. 15 overlord 16 queen + speed pull 2 drones from gas at 100 (about now you should be sure its no 2gate early presure) 18hatch second queen at main hatch (about half way done hatch scouting drone should die to stalker) (have your first and second overlord placed well at the base outskirts to scissor scout) drone up to about 28 and scout with overlords and lings at ramp to see 4gate build 3rd queen at expo, connect bases with creep, position overlord at backdoor, two spine at expo, spred creep to backdoor you should have about 100 gas - lair - put 2 drones back on first gas build second gas now you are at 22 drones at mineral (28 -2spine - 3gas -1secondextractor) pump 20-30lings stockpile larva at expansion and dont transfer drones (u dont want to lose mining time and maybe you have to sac the hatch so its safer to have only main well saturated and fully mining) now your at the point where warpgate finishs and the first attack is not far away. anything you do from now on depends on what 4gate the toss is gonna throw at you (unit composition). 1. mostly sentries + zealots half way to lair tech put 3 drones on second gas, get hydra at lair asap and build an two more spinecrawlers, mass lings and bait the toss on creep into spinecrawler range while having all 3 queens behind lings. once he decides to push in pull queens behind crawler and run 50% lings past zealots to block toss way back and attack sentires. important is that you dont let him trick you with fake attacks where he retreats out of crawler range and ff traps your lings (if you fall to this you can gg) repeat that unit hydras hit the battlefield. if you didnt lose your hatch and all queens your in good shape. the spinecrawler will probably die. 2. zealot heavy, some sentries this one is the hardes for me to defend! throw down raoch warren asap, pump lings and get two more spinecrawler. stay on 3drones/gas. dont EVER attack his zealot wall for to long. run back and forth at the creep boarder and bait him into taking as much dmg through hit'n run from lings/queens/spines. if you hold him long enough for just 1-2 roaches pop your safe. 3. mass stalker (maybe max 1-2 sentires) the probably easiest to defend! dont overcommit to lings, dont build more than the initial 2 spinecrawler. use main hatch only for combat unit production while spockpiling larva at your expansion. build lings from queen larva and use hatch larva for drone/drone/ling (2/1). saturate second gas and build hydra den as soon as lair finishes. the reason for this: once the first attack happens the toss may decide to not expand and use left over minerals to keep pushing and switches to a zealot heavy mix as he sees you only have lings to defend and only 2 scrawler. in case he doesnt push harder and expands/retreats you can push out a lot of drones fast from your expansion while geting spire and not building any more hydras. (avoiding collosi tech followup) about backdoors: on maps with backdoors its important to have spread creep fast and maybe stop drones even earlier to get more lings. also it may be good to get roaches no matter what his army compostion is because the suck up dmg so well. overall i personaly dont have much more problems with backdoormaps as long as you dont do wrong decisions to when to attack and when not to attack (-> when the toss gets off very good ff and you lose to many lings its most games a lose) overall i had the most succes with stoping to drone at 28 and start pumping lings. another important thing i had to learn slow is that once you defend the 4gate and you have units left ofer (and full of lings and 3-4 hydras) -> counterpsuh!!!!!! the counterpush wins me the game soooo often. a lot of toss player stop the push after 3-4 warpins and expand. the time my small counter arives there is not much defense and maybe a vulerable expension. if you can snipe a gate or a pylon with lings and hydras you in such a good shape. just keep pumping drones while you push and saturate your expansion. hope this helps Zira | ||
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Ciddass
Germany149 Posts
check this thread about upgrades for more. it`s quite old but i think it`s still reliable. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On August 25 2010 07:09 Chaosvuistje wrote: After dying to four gates over and over on blistering sands and delta quadrant/any map with an open natural or a backdoor I've finally snapped now. I have more trouble against the protoss four gate than any other build a race can throw at me. I would rather cuddle a terran tank line than go up against a four gate rush. I will do anything to get a reliable way of dealing with a fourgate on a map with close rush distances. I've tried tons of spinecrawlers - which makes the protoss sit back on his second base with me unable to attack him. I've tried teching to hydra's quickly and get a little less spinecrawlers - This worked on maps where I got a cross position or scrap station. I've tried speedlings - which get completely torn apart by any sort of zealot heavy four gate, and does moderately well against a mass stalker ball. Is it just me or are spinecrawlers really that slow in everything that they do? By the time they finished building I've died of old age, reincarnated as buddha died again. By the time the arrive to their next burrowing place I can order a pizza, watch the lord of the rings trilogy twice, and come back to the screen with that thing still burrowing. Pardon my rage and tears, it just happens that I lost all the protoss match ups I've had recently due to this build. And I would do anything for a reasonably reliable build order that atleast gives me a chance to defend the first push and retaliate. Its something I would love to improve on instead of pretty much auto losing when my spines barely havent finished building and the protoss just walking past them. Actually, spinecrawlers do build too slow, and the root time is too long. It's a serious problem, especially on maps with bdoors, because it makes them not viable. Crawlers are the only way you're really going to hold a 4 warpgate if you went FE. You can't really ling spam cause good FFs and a zealot wall supported by sentry/stalker will beat it. Perhaps better players can shed some light on this issue, but I don't believe its viable. Hydra come too late, if you don't have crawlers to delay, you'll die before they're out most likely. I've found roach actually to be the best unit to go, supported with some lings from your next production waves, but you still have to have some crawlers to buy time to get your army up. Just remember, on creep roach are good, off creep stalkers can kite them. I think maps like xelnaga, sands, DO, kulas etc which are too hard to defend with just crawlers are simply miserable zvp. Imbalanced? maybe. But definitely unnecessarily difficult. (also to note, xelnaga and DO are zvt imba because of the difficulty of fighting hellions without dying to a runby.) | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
After losing 90% of games against protoss' fast warpgate push I'm in serious need of help on how to defend a chronoboosted warpgate push with gateway started at around 10-11. Not quite sure how you guys can get to hydras in time, if the push is done really fast (10-11 gate) and with 4x chronoboosted warpgate tech, first wave will come before you manage to get spine crawlers down at your natural with a 20-21 hatch (aka ridiculously fast, even if you build spine crawlers in main and transfer them down, the first wave comes just at the point you root them down), and long before you have any weapon / defense upgrade. It's so fast that even if you know it's coming, you cannot afford everything (ie, roach warren AND spine crawlers AND another queen). On top of that, a good protoss will not let you expand before you get first set of lings (pylon that gets cancelled or just moving around), so 15/16 hatch is out of option. All that said, I am seriously starting to wonder how you can defeat this push without suffering much bigger losses than the opponent himself. I'm also starting to wonder if there is much point to FE against this. I would kindly ask for any replays of players being able to defend against such a fast push. edit: just checked the in-game time it comes at, warpgate finishes at 5:40 and first wave comes at 6:00 if anyone wonders, and that's way before you can get hydras out | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
You just need to not try sneak in drones, if he's going 4gate you need to get as big an army as you can asap, throw down crawlers if its viable. As long as you hold that big push off you're okay, its all about holding that one massive push. I usually get a mass of roach hydra, but i like the idea of the early +1 carapace. this means zealots need an extra hit to kill a ling. | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 26 2010 13:24 Subversion wrote: I usually get a mass of roach hydra, but i like the idea of the early +1 carapace. this means zealots need an extra hit to kill a ling. +1 zealots, right? | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
Why not just mass +1/(+1) zerglings? Here's the essentials. First hundred gas on speed Throw down an evo chamber Next hundred gas on +1 melee Next hundred gas on lair Getting +1 carapace depends on if you see them going for a forge variant as +1 carapace on lings is useless unless P gets +1 attack, so I'd rather spend the gas on roaches or hydras. The pros here are Zealots now take 30 hits to kill instead of 38 and stalkers take 32 hits instead of 40. That's 21% and 20% faster kills respectively. Lings are fast enough that I can intercept Ps army as he's leaving his base, and specifically target the probe to make warp-in reinforcement not an option, as well as break off 8 or so lings and backstab his base with my lings that now kill probes in 7 kills instead of 8, forcing P to at least warp in some units for defense, further weakening his push. The cons are obviously FF is going to jack me up even worse, and if he moves down in a tight ball with his zealots on the outside and probe in the middle, my lings will be mostly ineffective at harassing him on the way over. I haven't been able to try this out yet, but does anybody have any thoughts/experience on this? | ||
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Erectum
France194 Posts
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RubiksCube
Germany259 Posts
He'll either retreat or counter push, so keep adding army and spines. If you hold of his push now, you have severely damaged his economy and he won't be able to reinforce his push so hard or tech even. You should also align overlords on the way to your base, so you can keep tabs on what he's doing with his army (retreating or just continue to push). He'll have a probe with him to reinforce (if he hasnt already build a pylon somewhere), so try to snipe that before he can build it. If you're not comfortable with rushing to hydras, get a baneling nest and just go ling/ling against the first push. | ||
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Viruuus
Germany451 Posts
On August 26 2010 13:14 EonuS wrote: + Show Spoiler + Previously 900 zerg here After losing 90% of games against protoss' fast warpgate push I'm in serious need of help on how to defend a chronoboosted warpgate push with gateway started at around 10-11. Not quite sure how you guys can get to hydras in time, if the push is done really fast (10-11 gate) and with 4x chronoboosted warpgate tech, first wave will come before you manage to get spine crawlers down at your natural with a 20-21 hatch (aka ridiculously fast, even if you build spine crawlers in main and transfer them down, the first wave comes just at the point you root them down), and long before you have any weapon / defense upgrade. It's so fast that even if you know it's coming, you cannot afford everything (ie, roach warren AND spine crawlers AND another queen). On top of that, a good protoss will not let you expand before you get first set of lings (pylon that gets cancelled or just moving around), so 15/16 hatch is out of option. All that said, I am seriously starting to wonder how you can defeat this push without suffering much bigger losses than the opponent himself. I'm also starting to wonder if there is much point to FE against this. I would kindly ask for any replays of players being able to defend against such a fast push. edit: just checked the in-game time it comes at, warpgate finishes at 5:40 and first wave comes at 6:00 if anyone wonders, and that's way before you can get hydras out If he makes that push so early, he wont have much gas for sentries, and he wont have +1 attack for zealots. This can be defended quite ok with just mass speedling, or add some banelings/roaches while you get your spinecrawlers up. I think it is much harder to defend the later version with stalkers, a lot of sentries/zealots (sometimes +1) on maps where you have a backdoor. I guess you have to have hydras by then or it is gg, but it you already made banelings or roaches, and he just didnt push at the earlier timing, you sometimes have trouble getting hydras out fast enough... | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On August 26 2010 16:00 Jermstuddog wrote: So I was mulling this over on my way to work when it hit me, though I'm sure somebody else is already doing it. Why not just mass +1/(+1) zerglings? you will probably lose vs void ray rush. Scouting is crucial here. I'm not sure about the timing. How fast can you get +1 attack? And the ultimate counter is FFs. Good FFs will rape mass ling. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On August 27 2010 21:57 Cheerio wrote: you will probably lose vs void ray rush. Scouting is crucial here. I'm not sure about the timing. How fast can you get +1 attack? And the ultimate counter is FFs. Good FFs will rape mass ling. We were clearly discussing defending four gates. Four gates with a voidray is a different build and even more all-in. And with scouting should be holdable. In my desperation I have tried the +1 melee attack lings. BOY oh BOY was I pleasantly surprised. I go 14 gas, 14 pool, 15 or 16 evo. Get melee attack first, then get speed. Speed will finish slightly before the melee attack does ( about a 10 second delay ). Massing lings will force him to either get lots of zealots or lots of sentries. You can go agressive on his ramp, try and bait him to get some forcefields wasted. Scout if he has gone lots of zealots, if he did. Get banelings. About 7 or 8 should do the trick. Attack the zealots with your lings first, keeping the banelings in the back. This will make sure all the zealots attack up front, letting you not waste banes on stalkers. As the zealots have a nice line, retreat the lings and move the banes in, the zealots will continiue to attack even though the banes will rip through them. The upside of this is that you can chew through stalkers really fast. You can be agressive which plays a bigger mental part than letting him do everything at ease. You can pick off and surround stray units that wander away from the ball. You can threaten backstabs. You can pick your battleground. You don't rely purely on defenses and you aren't forced into tech you don't want. You can pick muta's, infestors, hydra's at your leasure with all the stray gas you have left over. I would advise all of my fellow desperate zergs to try +1 melee zerglings out. All it takes is one game to try it out and see if it works for you or not. It definitely has for me and now is my standard opening against protoss who doesn't go 2 gate =). | ||
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REM.ca
Canada354 Posts
On August 25 2010 02:56 EnderCN wrote: No they won't, Protoss doesn't get any inherent advantage for resources that Zerg can't contend with. Yeah they do. They don't lose probes everytime they make a structure. | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
I really dislike hydras against 4 gate, i think you definitely need roaches. I personally play 14 gas 14 pool and take the drones off gas after 100 gas. then i expand after my first pair of lings spawns at ~20 supply. from then on i build drones, one more queen and maybe one more pair of lings till 34 supply (maybe 35 or 36 on larger maps). at around 30 supply i build a roach warren and put drones back into gas and try to suicide an overlord into his main to see what he is building. from then on i just build lings/roaches to hold off the 4 gate push if i scout that thats what he is doing. its important to have an overlord or ling at his natural so you can see once he builds a nexus there, then you have to pretty much stop army production and focus on drones again. also, if he plays some kind of late push and doesnt move out early, you can add a few more drones and also start to tech to t2. if you dont scout that he is playing 4 gate i would definitely recommend to tech to t2 at around 40 supply and build a third queen in case of voidrays. | ||
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No0BsTEr
Canada15 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/65473-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/65532-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant no crawlers http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/65477-1v1-protoss-zerg-lost-temple with crawlers 750+d zerg im really higher ive beaten 1200+ zergs and 1100+ terrans and 1100+toss but my friends dicked around when i slept one day and got me 20 losses -.- and hey fistidan fancy seeing you here i played you twice today in a row in lt where we both spawned in the same area http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/965164/1/Victor/ | ||
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Setanta
99 Posts
On August 27 2010 22:40 Chaosvuistje wrote: We were clearly discussing defending four gates. Four gates with a voidray is a different build and even more all-in. And with scouting should be holdable. In my desperation I have tried the +1 melee attack lings. BOY oh BOY was I pleasantly surprised. I go 14 gas, 14 pool, 15 or 16 evo. Get melee attack first, then get speed. Speed will finish slightly before the melee attack does ( about a 10 second delay ). Massing lings will force him to either get lots of zealots or lots of sentries. You can go agressive on his ramp, try and bait him to get some forcefields wasted. Scout if he has gone lots of zealots, if he did. Get banelings. About 7 or 8 should do the trick. Attack the zealots with your lings first, keeping the banelings in the back. This will make sure all the zealots attack up front, letting you not waste banes on stalkers. As the zealots have a nice line, retreat the lings and move the banes in, the zealots will continiue to attack even though the banes will rip through them. The upside of this is that you can chew through stalkers really fast. You can be agressive which plays a bigger mental part than letting him do everything at ease. You can pick off and surround stray units that wander away from the ball. You can threaten backstabs. You can pick your battleground. You don't rely purely on defenses and you aren't forced into tech you don't want. You can pick muta's, infestors, hydra's at your leasure with all the stray gas you have left over. I would advise all of my fellow desperate zergs to try +1 melee zerglings out. All it takes is one game to try it out and see if it works for you or not. It definitely has for me and now is my standard opening against protoss who doesn't go 2 gate =). Well +1 or not forcefield is going to give you a lot of trouble, and delaying your expansion that much results in a pretty weak economy too | ||
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
On August 28 2010 05:26 No0BsTEr wrote: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/65532-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant no crawlers / I watched this. It was 3 gate blink stalkers which you blind countered with mass +1/+1 lings. And he had 50 apm vs your 1xx. I want to see how that +1/+1 fares against a proper well executed 4/5 gate. | ||
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No0BsTEr
Canada15 Posts
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attacknme
79 Posts
http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/all/diamond/2R I can say that what i fear most vs zerg is the time between moving my first 3 units to my proxy pylon because thats a vulnerable timing window where i'm about to do my first wave of warped units, and if you have speedling upgraded by then, right when i move out of my base and am halfway to your base (you should have scouted this eaisly with overlords) you can sneak 6 lings into my base and attack probes. If you do this successfully, I will still do a lot of damage to you, but eventually will run out of money and can't afford to reinforce my attacks anymore and you'll be able to overrun me with the lings out of your 2 hatches (one of them with queens injecting larvae). I think the trick is to over-prepare for a 4gate push by cutting drones and massing zerglings a bit earlier than you normally would. Also at the 4 minute mark, you really should sacrifice an overlord to see what the P is building cus thats when the gates are coming up, not a lot of Z's do that. | ||
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waffling1
599 Posts
On August 23 2010 13:49 Fistdantilus wrote: More zerglings, try to bait the force fields before you fully commit. The better I got/get at my injections, the less of a problem it becomes. Also, don't over-drone. If he's not making a move for an expansion and you see the 4WG, then you have to match his army. The 4-gate is just a numbers game. 1100 Z. about how much drones is over droning? can u give us a ballpark number with tolerances, or just a general range? | ||
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proxY_
United States1561 Posts
Surviving with a few spinecrawlers (I know you don't want to build them but accept the fact that you probably have to), queens and lings and fast tracking hydras is the best answer as hydras completely decimate the ball. From there it can be tricky as the protoss could have expanded and be teching to either ht or colossus. As zerg you should probably try to aggressively expand, get an idea of the protoss tech path by sacrificing an overlord or two and go from there. | ||
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uberdeluxe
Canada306 Posts
That or ling/hydra, but that dies to collosi so hard D: | ||
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PeRk
United States73 Posts
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On August 28 2010 14:16 proxY_ wrote: Zerglings are not the answer since the protoss can just put down a few key forcefields and funnel them into zealots or block them in while stalkers and sentries shoot them. Roaches also don't do well since stalkers out range them. They can be kited around and taken out while the protoss takes minimal losses and keeps adding units to his ball. Yes, forcefields will give you a hard time. Thats why you bait out forcefields. You don't 1A into the ball instantly. Having speedlings gives you the advantage of being able to pick your battlefield. You will want to attack the protoss ball in the wide open. If the protoss has such mad skills that he can catch zerglings with forcefields in the open, which requires a crap ton of forcefields which are perfectly placed, then the engagement gives you enough time to get some spinecrawlers up. You can beat 50 apm protoss with ease by baiting forcefields ( which is really easy to do ). Either push some lings up his ramp and retreat quickly before he traps the lings in. Or try to engage him in the open and get a good position to surround the ball before he walls himself in with forcefields. Do note that by getting speedlings you have map controll, allowing you to get your natural up not in the form of a fast expansion, but at around 20 food expansion while pumping lings. You can't powerdrone as much as you like, that is true. All I'm asking is trying it out for one game, it will at most lose you 14 points in diamond. If you failed you can go and bust it and get my internet ego down =). | ||
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Immersion_
United Kingdom794 Posts
. Creep spreading down his attack routes is amazingly important also. | ||
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attacknme
79 Posts
On August 28 2010 22:52 Immersion_ wrote: Do you think a couple of extra hydra + 2/3 infestors > roach tech entirely? I mean fungal growth is very useful in giving you the potential to choose the battlefield, picking off zealots etc. I've had some success with this although it is difficult to squeeze them out in time I agree. They just remove the need for a "tank" imo, and roaches always seem to die/fail against toss armys. . Creep spreading down his attack routes is amazingly important also. That is a topic for a different discussion imo, we're talking about Z's surviving a 4gate in which case you'll be eliminated before you can think about even massing hydras. | ||
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