Sorry should be a Q in the title.
Since this is the only pvz strat at high diamond I ever see Id like to workout how to handle it on maps that dont permit spine turtling.
Maps with a back door maps do not permit spines yet they are the only response I can find in every 4 gate thread. Moving them is not viable.
There seems to be no way to beat a ball of protoss gateway units at that point in the game. Is the only answer catching them out of position before they clump up?

700+ diamond

Butigroove

Seychelles2061 Posts

August 23 2010 04:42 GMT

+1 carapace speedling/hydra is what I do when I scout 4wg, and it works very well.

DracuL

27 Posts

August 23 2010 04:48 GMT

Going FE at 20/21 food into Hydras and going hydra/ling in my opinion is the best way to efficiently hold off/stop the 4 gate. I have lost a countless number of times experimenting around against 4/5 gate, and I feel like this has had the best results. On maps with back doors it's still a good idea to put 1-3 spinecrawlers down and move them to the positions the protoss is favoring. It's important at the beginning of the attack to snipe the probe for the proxy pylon, or snipe the pylons themselves once you push the protoss back. This works for me as 820's zerg.

Fistdantilus

United States136 Posts

August 23 2010 04:49 GMT

More zerglings, try to bait the force fields before you fully commit. The better I got/get at my injections, the less of a problem it becomes. Also, don't over-drone. If he's not making a move for an expansion and you see the 4WG, then you have to match his army.

The 4-gate is just a numbers game.

1100 Z.

fdsdfg

United States1251 Posts

August 23 2010 05:06 GMT

i spend my first 100 gas on a lair, second on ling speed, third on a hydra den and go ling/hydra. Hold off on upgrading hydra range for a while so you can pump more hydras.

Works very well.

samuraibael

Australia294 Posts

August 23 2010 05:19 GMT

Pure speedlings fist?
Injections are ok for me, I dont miss them until late game. But when I go pure ling guardian shield normally makes them totally ineffective. Do I need to bait this? I usually try to wait until the last minute to engage so I have max units but this is too late to bait anything.

As for the quick hydra options. Whats the BO for this? How many gas do you need and do you get range upg or the extra 3 hydras?

whomybuddy

United States620 Posts

August 23 2010 05:50 GMT

1 base roaches? Spend that 300 minerals for overlords. XD I'm at platinum rank though

fdsdfg

United States1251 Posts

August 23 2010 06:04 GMT

On August 23 2010 14:19 samuraibael wrote:
Pure speedlings fist?
Injections are ok for me, I dont miss them until late game. But when I go pure ling guardian shield normally makes them totally ineffective. Do I need to bait this? I usually try to wait until the last minute to engage so I have max units but this is too late to bait anything.

As for the quick hydra options. Whats the BO for this? How many gas do you need and do you get range upg or the extra 3 hydras?

It's hard to give an exact BO because you'll have to customize your drone count based on your intel of what they are doing.

14 hatch, 15 pool I almost always do. Drone to 16, extractor, queen, OL, drone. Start mining gas.

Queen finishes, get lair and start the second extractor. Get ling speed, and once the lair finishes build a hydra den. Hopefully you have spotted 4gate now, at which point you stop making drones and start making ling/hydra. Stay on 2 gas, don't invest in upgrades.

If you get about 8-10 hydralisks and there's no push, you can start building drones again and getting upgrades, but keep an eye on his base for robo. Also it is smart to get an overseer to make sure he's not watching your entire army with an observer and scout. If you see a robo, contaminate it, even if it's a suicide mission, and attack. You should be able to run him over with this army.

His army composition is very important. If he spots all the lings and goes heavy zealots, get a baneling nest and 10 or so banes, keep them with the hydras so they don't do anything stupid.

If you see something like charge come on the zealots, then I like to go Roaches. Charge might mean HTs are on the way and you don't want to face HTs with ling hydra.

StupidFatHobbit

United States98 Posts

August 23 2010 06:20 GMT

Guardian shield doesn't affect ling damage, it's just that pathetic to begin with.

samuraibael

Australia294 Posts

August 23 2010 11:05 GMT

#10

lol I didnt realise guardian shield was ranged only. I guess the Ps who pop it vs my ling only armies dont realise this either.

14 hatch 15 pool is pretty risky. Any cheese or a standard 2 gate will give them a straight bo win wont it?

Makavw

Croatia165 Posts

August 24 2010 17:47 GMT

#11

4gate is way to strong tactic vs zerg. I have around 80% lose rate vs 4gate and i am 750 diamond zerg.
On most maps you cannot build spines due to wide open natural or backdoors.
If you stay one base they will have way more resources then you, if you expo ; you need to somehow defend it.
Pure speedling doesnt work due to zealots, pure roaches doesnt work due to stalkers . Combination doesnt work either since they can outmanuver you in combat with forcefields and superior range.
You cannot go hatch first cuz 2 gate will lose you the game right of the bat.

I still need to experiment with spending the 100 gas for lair to rush hydras ASAP , cuz if you spend first 100 gas on anything else then lair, hydras will be too late

EnderCN

United States499 Posts

August 24 2010 17:56 GMT

#12

If you stay one base they will have way more resources then you

No they won't, Protoss doesn't get any inherent advantage for resources that Zerg can't contend with. If you are going to stay 1 base you have to get a secondary hatchery to match their 4 gates though otherwise you won't have the larva.

BlasiuS

United States2405 Posts

August 24 2010 18:01 GMT

#13

There's already a thread about this:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=143291

some good suggestions there.

I agree with both of these:

On August 23 2010 13:42 Butigroove wrote:
+1 carapace speedling/hydra is what I do when I scout 4wg, and it works very well.

On August 23 2010 13:49 Fistdantilus wrote:
Also, don't over-drone. If he's not making a move for an expansion and you see the 4WG, then you have to match his army.

Get hydras faster, and get more zerglings until hydra den finishes. You're probably making too many drones and so you don't have a big enough army when toss breaks through.

You don't have enough time to saturate both of your bases before the attack comes. After you survive the attack, THEN you can drone up.

Hikari

1914 Posts

August 24 2010 18:05 GMT

#14

run a handful of zerglings into his base and kill some probes - it will really screw him over.

Logo

United States7542 Posts

August 24 2010 18:05 GMT

#15

You can usually defend 4 gate with lings as well if you go 1st hundred gas -> speed, 2nd hundred -> lair (in this situation the hydras aren't out quite fast enough to be there for the 4 gate). The key is around 35-40 food you need to halt all drone production and get your ling then hydra count up.

Even on a wide open nat I'll still build 3 spine crawlers. This way you can buy yourself some more time and can prevent the protoss player from just rushing into your mineral line or some other choked up area.

Logyx

United States14 Posts

August 24 2010 18:22 GMT

#16

From a Protoss player:
Bainlings are your friend... that early in the game anyway. Also, don't fast expand when you scout a 4 gate. 1 base until you get muta, and then go muta-ling, expand, and wait for him to GG.

Edit:
To explain a little better. Bainlings will take care of his Zealots, and that frees up your speedlings go for the stalkers. Keep pumping those and weaving in drones until you can get spine crawlers up.

kmillz

United States1548 Posts

August 24 2010 21:02 GMT

#17

Are banelings really that viable against this? I disagree, but I have yet to experiment with this. Seems like a waste of that valuable gas you need early game, I say just fast hydras is really the answer. Hydras in general have worked very well for me against almost anything toss throw at me until they get collosus. Im only platinum though, havent had to deal with 4-gate at high level of play yet.

Ezareth

United States60 Posts

August 24 2010 21:07 GMT

#18

Banelings aren't a guarantee, they need to be microed correctly. You can oversaturate and waste a lot of banelings on a relatively few number of lots.

In reverse a good Protoss can correctly minimalize the damage of zealots by spreading them out.

Steamboatlol

United States161 Posts

August 24 2010 21:33 GMT

#19

if you are using lings in your comp, you must must must have +1 carapace. I can not stress this enough.

Jollyburner

Canada190 Posts

August 24 2010 21:41 GMT

#20

On August 23 2010 13:49 Fistdantilus wrote:
More zerglings, try to bait the force fields before you fully commit. The better I got/get at my injections, the less of a problem it becomes. Also, don't over-drone. If he's not making a move for an expansion and you see the 4WG, then you have to match his army.

The 4-gate is just a numbers game.

1100 Z.