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Setanta
99 Posts
On August 25 2010 06:33 Steamboatlol wrote: if you are using lings in your comp, you must must must have +1 carapace. I can not stress this enough. it's only going to have a decent effect on battles if Protoss went for a fast +1 attack 4 gate build (which is really strong), but due to chrono boosting you're not going to match his upgrade with carapace fast enough | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
I will do anything to get a reliable way of dealing with a fourgate on a map with close rush distances. I've tried tons of spinecrawlers - which makes the protoss sit back on his second base with me unable to attack him. I've tried teching to hydra's quickly and get a little less spinecrawlers - This worked on maps where I got a cross position or scrap station. I've tried speedlings - which get completely torn apart by any sort of zealot heavy four gate, and does moderately well against a mass stalker ball. Is it just me or are spinecrawlers really that slow in everything that they do? By the time they finished building I've died of old age, reincarnated as buddha died again. By the time the arrive to their next burrowing place I can order a pizza, watch the lord of the rings trilogy twice, and come back to the screen with that thing still burrowing. Pardon my rage and tears, it just happens that I lost all the protoss match ups I've had recently due to this build. And I would do anything for a reasonably reliable build order that atleast gives me a chance to defend the first push and retaliate. Its something I would love to improve on instead of pretty much auto losing when my spines barely havent finished building and the protoss just walking past them. | ||
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
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DracuL
27 Posts
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XdsZmX
21 Posts
On August 25 2010 03:22 Logyx wrote: From a Protoss player: Bainlings are your friend... that early in the game anyway. Also, don't fast expand when you scout a 4 gate. 1 base until you get muta, and then go muta-ling, expand, and wait for him to GG. Edit: To explain a little better. Bainlings will take care of his Zealots, and that frees up your speedlings go for the stalkers. Keep pumping those and weaving in drones until you can get spine crawlers up. I disagree. The 4-gate I use when I play as toss is composed of no zealots at all, and zerglings never get a surround, so banelings would not be any trouble(especially since it would mean less lings, which makes it even easier). Overusing on forcefields is also not a problem, since my first units I pump out after the initial zealot is 4 sentries (which is easy to afford when running double gas), so they get over 100 energy each, usually close to 150 (thats 12 forcefields total when I engage, far more than I actually need). The only thing I've encountered that beats the 4-gate is either 1-basing (on maps with backdoors) or FE with spinecrawlers and slings. Roaches don't very well due to the stalker/sentries, and sometimes are completely negated using forcefields (just like naked lings). | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
Other than that, I think it's just a numbers game as someone said. Zerglings are probably your best, and just try as best as you can to gauge his army size and match Zerglings. The key to defending 4 gate for me is to not over Drone. It's better to overcommit to Zerglings than to overcommit to Drones and die right to his first attack. Just be diligent with scouting...life of a Zerg :3 | ||
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Snackattack
United States15 Posts
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farseerdk
Canada504 Posts
1) The thing this loses to the most is lair before hatch builds, especially quick hydra builds 2) If you scout an early forge, get an evo chamber and get the +1 carapace upgrade, then pump speedlings. DO NOT let the protoss have higher attack upgrades than you do carapace or ur lings are gonna get 2 shotted. 3) Keep your force at your expansion, not in your main, or he's just going to FF and block you out while he destroys your expansion On August 25 2010 08:06 XdsZmX wrote: I disagree. The 4-gate I use when I play as toss is composed of no zealots at all, and zerglings never get a surround, so banelings would not be any trouble(especially since it would mean less lings, which makes it even easier). Overusing on forcefields is also not a problem, since my first units I pump out after the initial zealot is 4 sentries (which is easy to afford when running double gas), so they get over 100 energy each, usually close to 150 (thats 12 forcefields total when I engage, far more than I actually need). The only thing I've encountered that beats the 4-gate is either 1-basing (on maps with backdoors) or FE with spinecrawlers and slings. Roaches don't very well due to the stalker/sentries, and sometimes are completely negated using forcefields (just like naked lings). The counter to a stalker/sentry push is simply to engage him away from your base. He will FF and block your lings away from the stalkers, but if he goes that in the middle of the map, just pull back. He's also blocked himself out. Engage and retreat several times and cause him to use up all his energy. And eventually he will make some mis-micros with FF unless your opponent is like 900 pts plus diamond. | ||
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HardcoreBilly
United States222 Posts
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lovewithlea
168 Posts
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Yenticha
257 Posts
The most efficient thing for me has been well microed glings with carapace, poking his army, emptying sentries energy, buying time, etc, so that he doesnt reach my base untouched. | ||
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mathemagician1986
Germany549 Posts
Basically, I'm going the standard speedling expand: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Speedling_Expand while getting at least 3 spinecrawlers at my natural if I know he's 4 gating. If hel leaves me alone and I can get lair untouched I'm usually ok. But if he chrono boosts 2-3 zealots and puts pressure on me, I have to make so many lings, my eco will be bad, so I'll be stockpiling larvae, because I can't really support 2 hatcheries yet, while I have to make hydras which are expensive. | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
I thought Z pretty much relied on being ahead on econ to be even. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
The easiest way to get around the issue is to just revise your map list. Having spine crawlers available to use makes it soooooooooooooo much easier to fend off. | ||
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
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TobZero
Germany493 Posts
start with 14gaß 14pool build. its solid and safe. 15 overlord 16 queen + speed pull 2 drones from gas at 100 (about now you should be sure its no 2gate early presure) 18hatch second queen at main hatch (about half way done hatch scouting drone should die to stalker) (have your first and second overlord placed well at the base outskirts to scissor scout) drone up to about 28 and scout with overlords and lings at ramp to see 4gate build 3rd queen at expo, connect bases with creep, position overlord at backdoor, two spine at expo, spred creep to backdoor you should have about 100 gas - lair - put 2 drones back on first gas build second gas now you are at 22 drones at mineral (28 -2spine - 3gas -1secondextractor) pump 20-30lings stockpile larva at expansion and dont transfer drones (u dont want to lose mining time and maybe you have to sac the hatch so its safer to have only main well saturated and fully mining) now your at the point where warpgate finishs and the first attack is not far away. anything you do from now on depends on what 4gate the toss is gonna throw at you (unit composition). 1. mostly sentries + zealots half way to lair tech put 3 drones on second gas, get hydra at lair asap and build an two more spinecrawlers, mass lings and bait the toss on creep into spinecrawler range while having all 3 queens behind lings. once he decides to push in pull queens behind crawler and run 50% lings past zealots to block toss way back and attack sentires. important is that you dont let him trick you with fake attacks where he retreats out of crawler range and ff traps your lings (if you fall to this you can gg) repeat that unit hydras hit the battlefield. if you didnt lose your hatch and all queens your in good shape. the spinecrawler will probably die. 2. zealot heavy, some sentries this one is the hardes for me to defend! throw down raoch warren asap, pump lings and get two more spinecrawler. stay on 3drones/gas. dont EVER attack his zealot wall for to long. run back and forth at the creep boarder and bait him into taking as much dmg through hit'n run from lings/queens/spines. if you hold him long enough for just 1-2 roaches pop your safe. 3. mass stalker (maybe max 1-2 sentires) the probably easiest to defend! dont overcommit to lings, dont build more than the initial 2 spinecrawler. use main hatch only for combat unit production while spockpiling larva at your expansion. build lings from queen larva and use hatch larva for drone/drone/ling (2/1). saturate second gas and build hydra den as soon as lair finishes. the reason for this: once the first attack happens the toss may decide to not expand and use left over minerals to keep pushing and switches to a zealot heavy mix as he sees you only have lings to defend and only 2 scrawler. in case he doesnt push harder and expands/retreats you can push out a lot of drones fast from your expansion while geting spire and not building any more hydras. (avoiding collosi tech followup) about backdoors: on maps with backdoors its important to have spread creep fast and maybe stop drones even earlier to get more lings. also it may be good to get roaches no matter what his army compostion is because the suck up dmg so well. overall i personaly dont have much more problems with backdoormaps as long as you dont do wrong decisions to when to attack and when not to attack (-> when the toss gets off very good ff and you lose to many lings its most games a lose) overall i had the most succes with stoping to drone at 28 and start pumping lings. another important thing i had to learn slow is that once you defend the 4gate and you have units left ofer (and full of lings and 3-4 hydras) -> counterpsuh!!!!!! the counterpush wins me the game soooo often. a lot of toss player stop the push after 3-4 warpins and expand. the time my small counter arives there is not much defense and maybe a vulerable expension. if you can snipe a gate or a pylon with lings and hydras you in such a good shape. just keep pumping drones while you push and saturate your expansion. hope this helps Zira | ||
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Ciddass
Germany149 Posts
check this thread about upgrades for more. it`s quite old but i think it`s still reliable. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On August 25 2010 07:09 Chaosvuistje wrote: After dying to four gates over and over on blistering sands and delta quadrant/any map with an open natural or a backdoor I've finally snapped now. I have more trouble against the protoss four gate than any other build a race can throw at me. I would rather cuddle a terran tank line than go up against a four gate rush. I will do anything to get a reliable way of dealing with a fourgate on a map with close rush distances. I've tried tons of spinecrawlers - which makes the protoss sit back on his second base with me unable to attack him. I've tried teching to hydra's quickly and get a little less spinecrawlers - This worked on maps where I got a cross position or scrap station. I've tried speedlings - which get completely torn apart by any sort of zealot heavy four gate, and does moderately well against a mass stalker ball. Is it just me or are spinecrawlers really that slow in everything that they do? By the time they finished building I've died of old age, reincarnated as buddha died again. By the time the arrive to their next burrowing place I can order a pizza, watch the lord of the rings trilogy twice, and come back to the screen with that thing still burrowing. Pardon my rage and tears, it just happens that I lost all the protoss match ups I've had recently due to this build. And I would do anything for a reasonably reliable build order that atleast gives me a chance to defend the first push and retaliate. Its something I would love to improve on instead of pretty much auto losing when my spines barely havent finished building and the protoss just walking past them. Actually, spinecrawlers do build too slow, and the root time is too long. It's a serious problem, especially on maps with bdoors, because it makes them not viable. Crawlers are the only way you're really going to hold a 4 warpgate if you went FE. You can't really ling spam cause good FFs and a zealot wall supported by sentry/stalker will beat it. Perhaps better players can shed some light on this issue, but I don't believe its viable. Hydra come too late, if you don't have crawlers to delay, you'll die before they're out most likely. I've found roach actually to be the best unit to go, supported with some lings from your next production waves, but you still have to have some crawlers to buy time to get your army up. Just remember, on creep roach are good, off creep stalkers can kite them. I think maps like xelnaga, sands, DO, kulas etc which are too hard to defend with just crawlers are simply miserable zvp. Imbalanced? maybe. But definitely unnecessarily difficult. (also to note, xelnaga and DO are zvt imba because of the difficulty of fighting hellions without dying to a runby.) | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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