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On August 30 2010 06:17 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 16:58 alphafuzard wrote:
A couple of things I think could improve your build
1. When dropping hellions, hit 'd' then click on your medivac to execute a moving drop which will give your drop more tempo
2. Add your extra rax earlier to streamline the build edit: just after your first production cycle on the ports imo
3. If you put a tech lab on your first rax after bunker, you can get stim and hit a much earlier timing attack window than your pre-storm attack. This means a 25 second delay in building marines which is 1 marine, but the dps from stim makes up for this loss imo
4. Consider making a raven first to both deny scouting from an observer and to build up energy for pdd in your initial attack So I decided to play a few games with your build + my adjustments and I think its very nice Attached replay against 1300+ diamond protoss ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-144169.jpg) + Show Spoiler +Hellion drop, though slightly mismicroed, gives me a slight lead which is hugely magnified in the first major attack
Note the continued use of the medivac which I think can also improve this build
I just got around to watching this, I like some of the changes. I'm definitely a fan of using your medivac to continue dropping instead of just leaving it with your army, and I like the earlier second and third rax. I'm not completely sold on stim yet (as I usually spend all my gas on banshees and cutting 100 gas is cutting a banshee and stim takes a long time), but there's some value here, thanks.
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Banshees are kinda ridiculous vs toss lol. still, all the replays i have seen of this build were against some below average players who didn't really do enough to deal with the banshees or hellions. In the minigun replay his stalkers count was puny and he did a poor job of defending the hellions. I think a FE could beat this if you were smart and got more gas and stalkers.
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See White-Ra vs MorroW for stopping the marine/banshee play. MorroW even gives up on it when Ra stomps it while expanding.
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On September 01 2010 06:28 Yaotzin wrote:
See White-Ra vs MorroW for stopping the marine/banshee play. MorroW even gives up on it when Ra stomps it while expanding.
Link pls.
Im not a fan of OPs build. I do the 1 1 2 myself with "great" succes at about 1100 rating. I basicly just do a timing push with about 4 banchee and a bunch of marines and expand before 10min .... The fundemental problem with this build is that you will only be able to secure your expantion around the 12 min mark which means that you are pretty much all in on your helion drop. If it doesnt do dmg, you lose. This isnt doesnt mean the build is bad, I just feel it delays the banchee production too much.
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On September 01 2010 06:28 Yaotzin wrote:
See White-Ra vs MorroW for stopping the marine/banshee play. MorroW even gives up on it when Ra stomps it while expanding.
Link please, this is relevant to my interests.
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On September 01 2010 06:36 Armsved wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 06:28 Yaotzin wrote:
See White-Ra vs MorroW for stopping the marine/banshee play. MorroW even gives up on it when Ra stomps it while expanding. Link pls. Im not a fan of OPs build. I do the 1 1 2 myself with "great" succes at about 1100 rating. I basicly just do a timing push with about 4 banchee and a bunch of marines and expand before 10min .... The fundemental problem with this build is that you will only be able to secure your expantion around the 12 min mark which means that you are pretty much all in on your helion drop. If it doesnt do dmg, you lose. This isnt doesnt mean the build is bad, I just feel it delays the banchee production too much.
It's on his site (white-ra.com), though that seems to be down atm. MorroW does the 2port banshee thing the first 4 games (then gives up on it). Generally he seems to favor 3gaterobo -> blink with like 95% stalker, though he doesn't even seem to need blink. Just nice concave and attack move really. Stomps MorroWs push on sands while his expo nexus is warping in, so MorroW tosses the strat :D
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On September 01 2010 06:52 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 06:36 Armsved wrote:On September 01 2010 06:28 Yaotzin wrote:
See White-Ra vs MorroW for stopping the marine/banshee play. MorroW even gives up on it when Ra stomps it while expanding. Link pls. Im not a fan of OPs build. I do the 1 1 2 myself with "great" succes at about 1100 rating. I basicly just do a timing push with about 4 banchee and a bunch of marines and expand before 10min .... The fundemental problem with this build is that you will only be able to secure your expantion around the 12 min mark which means that you are pretty much all in on your helion drop. If it doesnt do dmg, you lose. This isnt doesnt mean the build is bad, I just feel it delays the banchee production too much. It's on his site (white-ra.com), though that seems to be down atm. MorroW does the 2port banshee thing the first 4 games (then gives up on it). Generally he seems to favor 3gaterobo -> blink with like 95% stalker, though he doesn't even seem to need blink. Just nice concave and attack move really. Stomps MorroWs push on sands while his expo nexus is warping in, so MorroW tosses the strat :D
EDIT: nvm im a retard :D
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On September 01 2010 06:36 Armsved wrote:
This isnt doesnt mean the build is bad, I just feel it delays the banchee production too much.
It doesn't delay banshee production literally at all. You go straight rax-fact-starport and then double-produce banshees. Watch the replays.
The hellion harass always does some damage. It is literally impossible to stop it without losing some probes unless the hellions are microed inredibly badly.
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Well, you "lose" the medivac production time on the first banshee timing, but the drop supposedly more than compensate for that if you force your opponent to stay in his base.
I wonder if it could be tweaked to get more marines/hellions, move some of them near opponent base before the drop, with a scout ahead of his choke, and if he push after killing the drop, dropping again when he's halfway to entice him to move back or to kill his economy.
That would mean cutting on banshees for faster barracks, or slower rax if additional hellions, so I guess it would be too risky if the opponent commits on his push.
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2 games, two victories.
Although I actually had to battle it out.
I think what's also important is that if he had an obs he'll make stalkers for your banshees, so you'll have to tech switch to marauders and THEN it's pretty much GG.
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On September 01 2010 05:58 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2010 06:17 alphafuzard wrote:On August 28 2010 16:58 alphafuzard wrote:
A couple of things I think could improve your build
1. When dropping hellions, hit 'd' then click on your medivac to execute a moving drop which will give your drop more tempo
2. Add your extra rax earlier to streamline the build edit: just after your first production cycle on the ports imo
3. If you put a tech lab on your first rax after bunker, you can get stim and hit a much earlier timing attack window than your pre-storm attack. This means a 25 second delay in building marines which is 1 marine, but the dps from stim makes up for this loss imo
4. Consider making a raven first to both deny scouting from an observer and to build up energy for pdd in your initial attack So I decided to play a few games with your build + my adjustments and I think its very nice Attached replay against 1300+ diamond protoss + Show Spoiler +Hellion drop, though slightly mismicroed, gives me a slight lead which is hugely magnified in the first major attack
Note the continued use of the medivac which I think can also improve this build I'm not completely sold on stim yet (as I usually spend all my gas on banshees and cutting 100 gas is cutting a banshee and stim takes a long time), but there's some value here, thanks.
Stim is something I definitely want to find the correct window for in this build - if it's possible. The marine army is nice to have, but after the Helion drop, it would be a huge asset to push with Banshees + Stim Marine. Not sure if the timing is possible though
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On September 01 2010 07:29 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 06:36 Armsved wrote:
This isnt doesnt mean the build is bad, I just feel it delays the banchee production too much. It doesn't delay banshee production literally at all. You go straight rax-fact-starport and then double-produce banshees. Watch the replays. The hellion harass always does some damage. It is literally impossible to stop it without losing some probes unless the hellions are microed inredibly badly.
It is possible to stop it without taking any damage if P scouts the medivac with his obs and position his stalkers at the edge of your base 
edit: pronouns..
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On September 01 2010 06:52 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 06:36 Armsved wrote:On September 01 2010 06:28 Yaotzin wrote:
See White-Ra vs MorroW for stopping the marine/banshee play. MorroW even gives up on it when Ra stomps it while expanding. Link pls. Im not a fan of OPs build. I do the 1 1 2 myself with "great" succes at about 1100 rating. I basicly just do a timing push with about 4 banchee and a bunch of marines and expand before 10min .... The fundemental problem with this build is that you will only be able to secure your expantion around the 12 min mark which means that you are pretty much all in on your helion drop. If it doesnt do dmg, you lose. This isnt doesnt mean the build is bad, I just feel it delays the banchee production too much. It's on his site (white-ra.com), though that seems to be down atm. MorroW does the 2port banshee thing the first 4 games (then gives up on it). Generally he seems to favor 3gaterobo -> blink with like 95% stalker, though he doesn't even seem to need blink. Just nice concave and attack move really. Stomps MorroWs push on sands while his expo nexus is warping in, so MorroW tosses the strat :D
The build that MorroW did is not the exact same build. That's the catch 1/1/2 is versatile just like 1/1/1/ meaning you can turn it into anything you want.
The 1/1/2 that first gained popularity when TLO used it is not quite the same as this build. If you don't harass then yes if you're prepared it can be defeated. MorroW had great success with it early on and then Ra started to counter it. Anybody who sees the same build over and over again will formulate a counter. Especially at the Pro level.
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On August 27 2010 15:43 Dadant wrote:A few replays of Morrow testing this build out v DuckloadRa on http://sc2rep.net/ id tag 1655-1659, some high skill level used here ofc.
I put the links up in this thread, however it's not the same build with no drop on the probes justed the marines, I think stimed, and banshee's also with them talking about the tlo build and Morrow wanting to test it so DuckloadRa was able to be ready for it.
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I watched some of the replays and I'm liking the build a lot. I am wondering though, do you definitely have to wall off every time? I like to build close to my cc for a variety of reasons, stopping probe harass and 2 gate stalker openings among them, but I find myself having some trouble against 4-gate stalkers (like 1 zealot, 2 sentries and a bunch of stalkers). These all stalker comps are tough for me, even when i go 3 rax marauders. I don't feel like walling off is a huge advantage over just bunkers at the ramp against mass stalkers, but am I missing something?
Also, blistering sands is a nightmare for holding off the 4 gate with that backdoor, how do you handle that?
Love the build, iEchoic, and especially the transition to battlecruisers :D. keep up the great work!
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I'm having trouble versus Blink Stalkers + observers
Will post a replay later but does anyone have some basic advice? I guess I need to cancel the cloak when I see the robotics and do I keep going marine+banshees even vs blink stalkers? or should I switch to something else?
I will keep messing with it, but the only time I lose with this strategy is versus mass blink stalkers with observers and/or immortals
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[B]On August 23 2010 08:41 iEchoic wrote:
The build is very lean, holding off on the second refinery until after the first starport begins construction, creating mineral-only units, and forgoing any addons until two starports are produced.
Also, I wanted to add that this is (to me) what makes this strategy so good. Delaying the second gas when you plan on going for double starport is counter-intuitive, but it's the secret behind the innovation! Staying on one refinery for a little longer makes the build feel so smooth, you have exactly the minerals and gas you need right when you need them.
That video about the blink stalkers is a good one, and seems like it might give iEchoic's build a little trouble, but the hellion harass is an important detail that secures an economic advantage, and it doesn't seem too hard to add a raven or two for pdd and switch into marauder production, both of which are very natural transitions and showcase the versatility of the build. Then again, battlecruisers are always awesome too  Don't get me wrong, if I am playing protoss and I see marine and banshees, I'll probably go blink stalkers, but I don't think I would call it a hard counter. It is a good reaction, and so is phoenix/zealot imo.
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700pt diamond, was mainly playing 3rax allins vs toss
1/1/2 is incredible so far, probably 10ish games without loss so far. if the hellion drop isnt scouted or stopped, it will literally win you the game. ive had games with 20+ kills where they microd their probes in a big line running away from their stalkers/lots.. lol. even got me considering the possibility of the drop vs terran and then trying to 3/1/1 to overwhelm before tank/viking
even in games where i get 10, or less, i still feel like im ahead. im switching it up between harrassing with banshees from both sides on probes while i expand to bc/marauder/medi and straight up marine/shee push.
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I've been trying this in the low Gold level, and have had mixed results.
First, the flaw against early timing pushes is obvious. I'm relying much more on my scouting than I feel comfortable, trying to spot multiple gateways that are usually hidden or proxied somewhere my scout didn't notice. Generally, I like builds that are not so succeptible to surprise, but I know that some players are better at scouting than I, so take from this what you will.
Second, the Hellion drop is not all I hoped that it would be. Sometimes of course, he spots my medievac. Other times though, he's got 4 or so stalkers in his mineral line already because he just has that much wiggle room to guard for an airborne attack instead of a frontal one. And even when the Hellion drops get by unexpectedly, it seems that they do the most damage against players who pull probes off the line. Many players at this level don't do this. And with a normal mining distribution, the hellions hit only a couple probes at a time, kill 3 or so and get taken out. Now I realize that 3 probes to 3 Hellions is a good exchange for the attacking player in the upper diamond level. But where I'm at, it's just not that tangible, especially when my mid-game composition is so up in the air (pun intended). And this brings me to point 3...
Third, Stalkers are still very good against my mid-game composition, and I'm not really in a good enough position a lot of the time to counter them. A colossus or two defended by enough stalkers can pretty much go wherever they want on the map v. my comp, up to and including expanding much earlier than I. I understand that the way out of this is the timing window, but I see even in the posted replays that the Banshee/Marine push happens a bit after the Colossus comes out, to say nothing of keeping the opponent off of a dozen or more stalkers.
What I've been doing sometimes when I scout an early cyber core is this. I make a second rax, get a tech lab on the first one, put out about 3 Marauders and get stim. Then instead of using the factory for Hellions, I mock up a reactor and switch it to the first starport for 2 Medievacs. With these 2 dropships, I just do - you guessed it - a fully stocked bio drop.
The bio drop itself is quite often more cost efficient than even the Hellion drop. I'll catch at least 3 or so probes as they're coming off the line, sometimes more. But also, the opponent has to respond much more carefully to the bio-drop. The casual 1-attack-move response that deals so handily with the Hellions results in a narrow file of zealots/stalkers going through the natural choke point formed by his Nexus and mineral line. The Marauder enhanced bio works much better against stalkers, and the choke forms a problem for his zealots. The bio usually take out half a dozen toss units before they start to suffer losses, and because the medievacs heal them, it can even result in a gg. Worst case is that you lose 6 marines to his 6 or so combat units and 3 probes, then pick the rest up hot and head for home. The remaining stalkers cannot down the ships when you micro them off into space. And 6 marines lost is the same mineral cost as the 3 hellions.
Of course, iEchoic's smooth timings are going to be upset by this, and obviously, it's not possible to get a good bio drop as early as the hellion drop. But as far as timings are concerned, I'm not perfect in executing my BO's anyway, and so I leave it up to other players to find out when to get gas, etc. All I konw is that the bio drop requires me to get my second gas a bit earlier than in the original build. But as far as resource differences there is not all that much discrepancy:
Add:
1 Barracks (150/0)
1 Tech Lab on Rax (50/25)
1 Reactor on Fac (50/50)
1 Extra Medievac (100/100)
1 Stim Research (100/100)
3 Marauders (300/75)
The difference between 10 marines and whatever fewer than that you had in the original build (?/0)
Subtract:
3 Hellions (300/0)
6 Marines (300/0) - you made 3 Marauder instead
The difference is 150/275. Having spent SCV trips on gas instead of minerals, I'd estimate it takes about 30s of mining at an income of 600/200 to get the extra. So theoretically, someone could trim the timings so that the bio drop happens no later than 30 after the Hellion drop would've gotten there. In my own practice, the difference is closer to 1 min and I'm not sure why.
Even so, a 1 min buffer is a worthy price to pay against a toss who has massed stalkers. Another side benefit to this is that you can pump out 2 quick Vikings (or more) with your reactor port, particularly good against the natural protoss counter to bio - the Colossus.
I know that this sort of play (2/1/1) is really just a MMM timing push, but I thought to post it here for two reasons. First, they both involve 1 base play and a drop versus Protoss. Protoss seem particularly vulnerable to drops, and to the 1/1/1 opening in general.
The second reason is that right about the time we would need to get the earlier gas and second barracks for this build is when we find out through scouting whether our opponent is 4-gating, massing stalkers or getting an early robo bay - three protoss configs that 1/1/2 Hellion can be countered by. Against these builds, I recommend grabbing a second barracks and earlier gas. Otherwise, the results of the commonplace 1/1/2 hellion/banshee against void-rays, no robo bay and others speak for themselves. Splitting production facilities also gives this bio-focused build the same sort of flexibility. So, both are really 2 variants of what the player set out to be a 1/1/1 build.
So, I'm curious on whether anyone attempting this build has opted to go early bio, and if so, to what result. I need help especially with the timings and the BO. My 2 ships pop pretty early as it is now, and I wait a while for the bio needed to fill them completely.
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EPT
