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I believe I played a very good Toss player that stomped on this. My opponent was 90-30...I'm around the 1k diamond range...
He went 1 gate->robo, while leaving 3 stalkers in his mineral line with a pylon on the other side. He spread out the remainder of his stalkers at other key places around his base. From the 1 gate robo at some point he transitioned to an FE, and multiple gateways, but I felt like I was just unable to do ANYTHING against him.
I still went ahead with the drop anyway, I tried to fake an additional 2 hellions running up his ramp and this had SOME effect. But he cleverly (?) kept his probes mining and I only picked off 2. Maybe I shouldnt have sunk any more materials into this failed attempt as well.
Either way, I guess my question comes down to, if your drop does negative damage (at that point in the replay I had lost 400 minerals, him 100)... what do you do? Additionally he had an OBS in my base relatively quickly, but in the BO there is no mention of raven / ebay that early so I just let it chill there.
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In my experience as protoss this build is extremely strong if protoss is very passive and do not see it coming. Marine banshees coupled with the drop can completly rape him.
The times i was able to counter it was having a fast observer and being very agressive with stalkers at his ramp. Since I usually make phoenix or blink or charge as soon as i see mass marines (since its most probably a tech starport build raven or banshees) it helps countering the push and you can put an expand early. The most dangerous thing remains the drop and as a player suggested unless your probes are close to your stalkers dont run them around its useless, or spread them in small groups, warp in or bring back stalkers.
If being agressive doesn't work i really think the push can be held of with Z + S with charge, you can FE against that kind of build and the profit should come soon enough for you to have enough gate units to hold the push. I recommand to add a robo and a TC for either charge or blink.
It requires you to train your build in any case, this is a strong push.
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so I beat the very hard AI, and went on a winning streak on ladder vs 3 protoss... I guess its a combination of this build and overall increase in experience/skill that I now built up and gold players seemed a bit too easy, even with me doing many mistakes especially macro-wise... thanx for this build it gave me the confidence I needed to augment my possibilities.
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On September 08 2010 07:50 guyGOTgirth wrote:
I believe I played a very good Toss player that stomped on this. My opponent was 90-30...I'm around the 1k diamond range...
He went 1 gate->robo, while leaving 3 stalkers in his mineral line with a pylon on the other side. He spread out the remainder of his stalkers at other key places around his base. From the 1 gate robo at some point he transitioned to an FE, and multiple gateways, but I felt like I was just unable to do ANYTHING against him.
I still went ahead with the drop anyway, I tried to fake an additional 2 hellions running up his ramp and this had SOME effect. But he cleverly (?) kept his probes mining and I only picked off 2. Maybe I shouldnt have sunk any more materials into this failed attempt as well.
Either way, I guess my question comes down to, if your drop does negative damage (at that point in the replay I had lost 400 minerals, him 100)... what do you do? Additionally he had an OBS in my base relatively quickly, but in the BO there is no mention of raven / ebay that early so I just let it chill there.
That guy basically played the accurate counter, not much you could do about it. Note that this doesn't make the build bad - every single strategy has a counter, else it would be imbalanced and patched. What makes a strategy bad is usually if the strategy has no good continuation that can recover from being countered, or if the counter turns out to be part of the common or default line of play.
This is neither since 1) after the drop fails you're not too far behind - especially if you both expo since then the investment you made in the early drop becomes a relative drop in the bucket. And 2) putting stalkers in those positions is not normal and turns out to be a bad play against many other Terran openings.
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Since this build is so good and helped a lot of people Im uploading a vid just to showcase it.
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I've been doing a similar build against protoss for some time now with lot of success, with the big difference that I always get a Raven first before pumping banshees, so you get energy for PDD when you're ready to push with banshees / marines / hellions, which makes the push almost unstoppable if you end up at this point. PDD stops phenixes and stalkers, the most obvious answers to banshees. The only thing going to hold this is a very early expand into MASS stalkers. I've been working on some variant to deal with this by including marauders in the mix (you can afford it off 1 base) but still didn't get to find a smooth way to incorporate those early enough so you have a decent amount of them when you push.
The other big problem is those 4gate pushes, I really don't see how to hold those, the push occurs when you're building the first banshee (assuming you rush it after scouting 4gate) so you usually don't have the time to get cloak and bunkers with marines aren't going to stop anything.
In short any protoss being agressive relatively early before you can hurt his econ will have no problem to beat this imo
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A video, hah, awesome. Nice 
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This would make a great page on the wiki.
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Hello every1. I had this game vs a diamond(im still platinum) so dont expect a great game. On the contrary I lost due to NUMEROUS mistakes. So I have a general idea as to what I should in case I should play this again, but still, I need info. What should I have done in order to make the most out of the build ? I want to see if the things I thought on improving are the correct ones or irrelevant. So if any1s got the time to watch, its not lengthy, id be greateful. ty
http://rapidshare.com/files/419081176/Lost_temple_failed_hellion_drop.rar.html
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policymaker,
typically posters are asked to provide their own analysis before expecting others to invest time in watching their replay. Could you share with us your own insights ?
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ohh fair enough I guess... Was just trying not to lead any1 to conclusions other than their own. Well, to any1 actually watching the replay:
I start with the usual hellion drop to mass marines/banshees. I ve scouted and seen a fast robo for observer. For some seconds the observer see my medivac and hellions so my opponent gets prepared. Still scouted and got 4 probes, but I guess I should have hidden them with hidden waypoints and I could have devastated him.
After that he immediately attacks. Due to observer he can see my bunker and kill it. My nonexistent micro didnt help much, so I do get to counter his attack but with many, many scvs dead and a couple of buildings down. I guess with a couple scvs to repair the bunker and proper micro I wouldnt get so much dmg out of his attack.
Last but not least, there are 2 attacks from his side. First attack, I fend it off with a couple marauders left. I am sure I microed really bad there.. Second and lethal attack, I have marines/marauders a couple of ravens and 6 banshees, he just got mass stalkers and 3-4 immortals. I just sent my units there and got slaughtered. I believe that if I had steampacked the maraud/marines in front of my banshees while getting PDD from ravens to counter some attacks, then focusing his immortals, I would have beat him. Not to mention I did have the cash to go ghosts, which was instant win too.
Now, I just wanted some1 to comment on this replay and tell me if my actual analysis for a similar future game is OK.
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Alright, I am playing on Platinium level now and this build definitely helps me a lot in my placements~
so thx iEchoic.
However, How to deal with 4gate Blink stalkers with it? cloacked banshee and drop may not be enough to buy u time to avoid unupgraded marines being massacred
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if he plays 4 gate build a bunker and repair it when he attacks. If he gets zealots and blinkers continue normally, if he gets mass stalkers get a rave so u get a couple of free hits thanx to PDD. 4 gate means early push so u probably will have an open mineral line to harass with ur hellions
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I tend to change this build a little bit and to build my bunker in their natural 
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Just wanted to stop in to say thanks for this strat - it really works for me!!
Before this strat:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/RFgr3.jpg)
And after:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/ed3So.jpg)
I only played 2 Toss with it and it worked best with those. Worked pretty well against Zerg too; I just scanned frequently to make sure he didn't have counters in hand. He went mutas; my Hellion drop still got a bunch of drones and the Banshee + Marine push still worked since marines owned the mutas. I got 2 Vikings just in case but it wasn't really a big deal.
Obviously didn't work against Terran but the intro is actually great regardless, going 2 Starport makes early Banshee harass much more effective and transitions well into whatever they're going for. One guy went mass Marauders which the Banshees rocked.
Thanks again
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On September 16 2010 03:17 grandpaj wrote:I only played 2 Toss with it and it worked best with those. Worked pretty well against Zerg too; I just scanned frequently to make sure he didn't have counters in hand. He went mutas; my Hellion drop still got a bunch of drones and the Banshee + Marine push still worked since marines owned the mutas. I got 2 Vikings just in case but it wasn't really a big deal. Obviously didn't work against Terran but the intro is actually great regardless, going 2 Starport makes early Banshee harass much more effective and transitions well into whatever they're going for. One guy went mass Marauders which the Banshees rocked. Thanks again
Awesome, glad you liked it.
I've been working on the build since I've posted it, have been refining the transitions against different compositions, and been compiling some replays, as well as future-proofing the strategy against the upcoming BC nerf. I'll be doing a pretty significant update that should work out any remaining kinks sometime in the near future, so stay tuned.
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I've been using this build to great results until yesterday. Played a 1200 protoss that fast expanded, killed only 2 or 3 probes because he was very on the ball as well as researching blink quickly, and then when I went to do my 3 banshee push, he literally had as many stalkers as I did marines (this might be false, I haven't seen the replay yet).
I was wondering how to play if you see this happening. Should I instantly put down a CC? put down 2 more rax to try to survive? Tank up? I seriously don't know.
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On September 16 2010 05:20 blagoonga123 wrote:
I've been using this build to great results until yesterday. Played a 1200 protoss that fast expanded, killed only 2 or 3 probes because he was very on the ball as well as researching blink quickly, and then when I went to do my 3 banshee push, he literally had as many stalkers as I did marines (this might be false, I haven't seen the replay yet).
I was wondering how to play if you see this happening. Should I instantly put down a CC? put down 2 more rax to try to survive? Tank up? I seriously don't know.
Well, for one thing scan constantly, if you see he has waaaaaay too many Stalkers then you don't have to waste any of your army finding out. But if you watch the replay vid a couple posts up you'll see that he handled a pretty insane amount of Stalkers with his Banshees + Marines - granted he had a few more than you but still, with micro, it's powerful.
Did your enemy have observers? If not then Cloak would win it for you...
If he's got detection and just TOO many Stalkers, drop a couple Tech Labs on your Rax and pump out Marauders - they own Stalkers and in combo with your existing Marines and Banshees shouldn't be tooo much of a problem.
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EPT
