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Hello,
I'm a fairly new zerg, and usually play 2v2 with my protoss mate. We seem to have a problem in protoss-terran matchups. Mainly, I don't know what to go for the most part.
I've tried to go mutas, but they get counter by their early "insane" amounts of stalkers. But that's sort of not the problem..
The problem is the terran. When he gets out just a *few* siege tanks, it's basicly gg for me, because I can't get close with lings, hydras get bombed, roaches are too short range to get close and get picked off by whatever else they have. The only good thing so far is mutas, but I have no way to really using them when they come with a mass stalker/marine build.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135471.jpg)
Any advice (for anything, even macro) would be much appriciated. I'm fairly new as zerg and have no real idea of how to play them yet.
(My build order is pretty bad as well I think, but I can't seem to find the right "opening".. Obviously I transistion to whatever is needed for a counter)
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Based on the sheer amount of mech that is available for the terran player, the solution is:
Early game: surround with lings
Midgame: use tunneling roaches to get underneath the entire tank army
Lategame: When detection has become far too great, resort to A: heavy, heavy amount of micro with lings/hydras or B: broodlords
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Oh, alright... Thanks lad.
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Maybe you could try Ultralisks also, they do some crazy damage to armored units fully upgraded and have cleave. Watching a few of Day 9 dailys, he had an idea to produce extra queens for transfuse on units, maybe make a couple to follow the Ultras in to heal them.
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when a terran starts making tanks start expanding and put units at towers so you can see him move out. if he sieges outside your base and you dont know it your completly fucked so its very important to see where his army is at all times. keep expanding and turtle up. then basically watch for one of 3 transitions.
he will either put his money to heavy thor counts with marines and tanks and hellions. in which case id turtle to ultra ling infestor and crush him when he attacks.
or hell go heavy heavy tank with thors and marines and maybe hellions too in which case id say broodlords are better cuz they seriously rape thors in small numbers and tanks of course blow up insanely fast. when doing this you have to be careful with your lings keeping them away from tank masses and only using them to scout defend your base in baneling form and to harrass undefended locations. your lings become extremly important when he moves out his forces because they surround the enemy army letting the brood lords do dmg.
lastly he may opt to do a crazy mmm mid/late game push with a 200 200 ball of bio. if this goes unscouted your doomed however if you see it coming just make solid baneling ling infestor and pull off the micro when it hits you.
dont forget to have corrupters and hydras to defend your broodlords from things like vikings.
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In the late late game, I almost think it's better to keep your ground force inside of overlords and use drops. Dropping completely negates the terran's range advantage, and a small # of ultralings dropped into the middle of a large tank force will kill them easily.
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How do you get your OL into the middle of a T army with Vikings and Marines?
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On August 06 2010 04:38 pwnasaurus wrote:
How do you get your OL into the middle of a T army with Vikings and Marines?
Decoy overlords with em. The minerals you lose with that is less than how much you would lose in a head on charge.
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I'm only a random platinum player, so I may not be able to give the best advice. However, one thing that made me cringe a bit while watching the replay is the complete lack of intel. I like to spread overlords around the map so that I know when something is coming and can react accordingly (aka produce units and position myself).
I like to use burrowed roaches behind enemy lines and micro them so that they take damage take out a tank at a time then burrow them to minimize losses / heal them. Against Terran though, it's a bit harder because of scans. This has been said in numerous posts in ZvT when T goes mech, abuse mech's immobility. I mentioned intel earlier for this reason. When they are moving in the open is when you need to strike. If you've got hydras, make sure to micro them so that they are all fighting and not running around trying to get a concave that is impossible (too many hydras, not enough space) and same goes for roaches too. Broodlords are also a nice addition for damage + taking damage. The problem I have with ultralisks in this specific replay is because the Terran went bio/tank. Stimmed bio rip through ultras making them fairly ineffective.
This is just the Terran though, you also have to have something to help against the protoss. If you scout colossi, I prefer corruptors against them. Watch their micro and react accordingly. Let me look through my replays and see if I can find something for you.
On a completely different note, I think if you would have scouted you could have expanded earlier. You had the spare minerals and they didn't attack for quite a while. At that expansion, I also do a worker transfer. This helps equalize the worker distribution amongst mineral nodes.
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On August 04 2010 09:26 TheJet wrote:
Based on the sheer amount of mech that is available for the terran player, the solution is:
Midgame: use tunneling roaches to get underneath the entire tank army
Lategame: When detection has become far too great, resort to A: heavy, heavy amount of micro with lings/hydras or B: broodlords
Bad advice. Midgame: Any half decent T will either get 1 raven or scan when he pushes.
Late: ling hydra vs mech? That has to be the worst advice I have ever read on these forums, helions demolish lings and do ok vs hydra, seiege tank demolsihes both , even with full surround this isnt even close to feasible.
BL's, decent answer until he gets enough vikings + thors up, corrupter does ok vs viking but not with thor backup
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It depends on what else the Terran has. Drops (of almost anything, though I like Banelings the best) or Mutas into the tank line if they're short on AA in general (ie lots of Marauders or Hellions or something other than Marines). BLs if they're short on Vikings (Marines don't matter a bit as the Broodlings will keep them back). Ultras if their tank numbers aren't obscene. Burrow some Infestors and toss Infested Terrans into the line and let his own splash make some holes (usually the Ravens, if any, are directly above the tanks or a little behind and you'll be able to get close enough for ITs). Burrowed Roaches if they lack detection altogether. Nydus/Drop wherever his tanks aren't will make him want to cry (I know this from experience).
I'm probably missing a few tactics, but the general theme is, do NOT engage them directly with ground unless you have more Ultras than he does Tanks.
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ultras rape tanks so bad. not there yet? try burrowed roaches or mutalisks
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All of this advice sounds completely and utterly ridiculous.
I'm not bashing you guys in any way. I'm bashing the fact that I have to put such a ridiculous amount of effort into countering a unit that terran can just spam out.
It sounds to me that throughout an entire game, zerg's main responsability is to leap across massive transistions in order to counter the terran's bullcrap unit composition. While terran just has to reach critical mass with his one predefined unit composition and just gain positioning, and rain fire on zerg units.
This makes zerg sound like a joke to me.
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Well, zerg is a race that depends on responding to whatever the enemy puts out first. If you're frustrated that you can't just 1a a mass of zerg units into the terran "hard counter" style, then you're better off playing a different race. Sorry, but that's just how the ball rolls.
EDIT: BTW, doom drops of hydra massacre terran if you can survive until you have a good number of hydras. It is impossible for tanks to unsiege, get to the hydras in your base, and siege up faster than you can just pack your hydras into your overlords and hit somewhere else undefended.
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Mutalisks are far more effective late game than pure ground in my opinion... heres what I do:
1. Get 8-10 mutas and about 20 roach/ 30 ling
2. Send the mutas to his SCV line, start the harass, The terran will do one of two things:
a. retreat his army to defend his base
----- If he does this, sneak your mutas around his base and snipe what you can of the tanks while they are moving back
b. make a push and forget about the harass
-----continue the harass until you feel happy, then follow his army and snipe the tanks
3. If you notice that his army is composed of tanks, thors, and marines, make sure to get plenty of roaches and hydras (not as many lings, they get one shotted by tanks and thors)
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On August 08 2010 04:40 Vreck wrote:
All of this advice sounds completely and utterly ridiculous.
I'm not bashing you guys in any way. I'm bashing the fact that I have to put such a ridiculous amount of effort into countering a unit that terran can just spam out.
It sounds to me that throughout an entire game, zerg's main responsability is to leap across massive transistions in order to counter the terran's bullcrap unit composition. While terran just has to reach critical mass with his one predefined unit composition and just gain positioning, and rain fire on zerg units.
This makes zerg sound like a joke to me.
you hit it on the head.
Terran (even a little Protoss) have such easy tactics to do, yet they are so effective, and takes a lot more talent to defend or fend off (such as a seige tank drop on the cliff of your expo in LT)
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I'm getting extremely frustrated, because i've been playing against the terran very hard A.I. all day, and it keeps ripping me to piece every game. It's the same problem over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. I just threw a glass of soda across the room when terran came up with a little ball of crap and lol'd at me all the way to the scoreboard screen. Regardless of mass hydras and lings.
I even played 2 games where I kept my units on creep for extra speed, and one where I tried flanking them when they were in the chokepoint.
The one thing that mindfucks me to the point where I think real life is a dream, is that the A.I. doesn't even siege his tanks, and still manages to paint his house with my units.
I went muta/ling, and he showed up with a ball of bio.
I went hydra/ling, and this actually worked... Until he thought it would be fun to throw unsieged tanks at me.
I went roach/ling, and this was pathetic beyond belief.
I can't seem to macro up as fast as him at all. He just sets rally point at my ramp, and it's all over for me. Even if I continuously spam units, spawn larvae flawlessly, have an expo at my natural, he still manages to steamroll me.
The most amazing thing is: I've played terran against all the very hard A.I. races, and won. But this is impossible for me... Impossible...
EDIT: Incase you're thinking why I wanna beat the A.I. it's primarily because I wanna go through the A.I. difficulties, without cheese strategies, before I go online to play ladder. I'm extremely nervous when I play online, so having abit of golden experience would work wonders for me.
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On August 08 2010 05:10 Vreck wrote:
I'm getting extremely frustrated, because i've been playing against the terran very hard A.I. all day, and it keeps ripping me to piece every game. It's the same problem over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. I just threw a glass of soda across the room when terran came up with a little ball of crap and lol'd at me all the way to the scoreboard screen. Regardless of mass hydras and lings.
I even played 2 games where I kept my units on creep for extra speed, and one where I tried flanking them when they were in the chokepoint.
The one thing that mindfucks me to the point where I think real life is a dream, is that the A.I. doesn't even siege his tanks, and still manages to paint his house with my units.
I went muta/ling, and he showed up with a ball of bio.
I went hydra/ling, and this actually worked... Until he thought it would be fun to throw unsieged tanks at me.
I went roach/ling, and this was pathetic beyond belief.
I can't seem to macro up as fast as him at all. He just sets rally point at my ramp, and it's all over for me. Even if I continuously spam units, spawn larvae flawlessly, have an expo at my natural, he still manages to steamroll me.
The most amazing thing is: I've played terran against all the very hard A.I. races, and won. But this is impossible for me... Impossible...
EDIT: Incase you're thinking why I wanna beat the A.I. it's primarily because I wanna go through the A.I. difficulties, without cheese strategies, before I go online to play ladder. I'm extremely nervous when I play online, so having abit of golden experience would work wonders for me.
don't be nervous man, its just a game.
playing online will help you more than playing AI since you really have NO idea what kind of silly strategies all these randies are doing on b.net right now, its hilarious lol. scout scout scout scout, you should get to platinum no problem.
and TvZ is an unfair match up, you will be sweating blood by the end of the game if you manage to win, it requires the utmost macro and multitasking to circumvent the terran army with drops and nip away at him while holding a base advantage, spread creep, drop with OL's, try and sneak a nydus in if possible, etc.scouting is extremely important in this matchup as well.
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Tank mobility is a real concern in team games. Attack where the tanks aren't and scout and try to hit the tanks when they are moving. If your opponents turtle expand and macro and try to deny them expansions.
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Rush to ultralisks, i promise that is works if the tanks are 1. close together in a group or 2. in an open field (if the maurader count isn't insanely high).
If the tanks are behind a choke with a wall-in, don't even try especially if they have mauraders.
have at least 4 ultras.
edit: also I just went fast roach on terran very hard, no problem - killed him like a kitten is my sleep.
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Scouting is important, honestly if you don't like dealing with terran mech as zerg, switch races because it's not going to change. That's like me saying I don't like dealing X and it's stupid because it just is.
The way to deal with terran mech. Assuming you've figured out he is in fact going mech (and not 4 raxing MM to early atk) you should make ample use of either hydras or mutas early (before he gets crit mass tanks) to prevent him from getting on 3 base. There isn't much you can do to prevent him getting on 2 base via natural.
You should never attack him at his main, you should continually harass with either baneling drops, or mutas. There is always something you can go after. Most zergs (read bad) seem to give up once they can't get to the mineral line or the T gets a thor up. Just keep bouncing in and out, snipe gas, snipe addons, snipe depots. It forces him to do things to defend.
He will likely push out at some point during midgame, which if you've harassed enough and macro'd accordingly you should have the following:
a) map control
b) creep spread about 1/2 to 2/3 the way to his base
c) watch towers
d) secondary flank army
e) primary army
You should be saccing overlords about every minute to keep an eye on his location. When he pushes you will want to catch him unsieged and get a flank/frontal atk to trade armies or at worst leave him with a depleted army which will get crushed by your reinforcements thanks to your superior macro. (note that reinforcing with roaches is actually good here since you have creep and his army is no longer huge)
After this midgame you should transition to either BL or ultras. Ultras literally destroy tanks in the open. If you have creep and he's on it, just demolish him. You should also have a nydus handy to force him to be in 2 places at once. Put simply if he's atk'ing you, drop a nydus. He either has to:
a) give up his base/expo
b) unsiege and retreat (giving you the chance to catch him unsieged and flank etc)
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Alright, well thanks for that guys (especially mrk).
I managed to win one game against very hard A.I. out of 13. He did a reaper cheese build and microed them terribly. I then just ran into his base and destroyed his mineral line.
I think zerg is just too horrible to play. I like them, but it's just not worth it for me. Just gonna move back to terran, even though I hate the ridiculous imbalance.
I might as well note that I understand the concept of playing zerg. That you have to overwhelm and adapt to the opponent. On the flipside; Adaption is probably the hardest part of the game, and thus a race should not be based solely on adapting and overwhelming. There's only so many things I can handle at once...
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Mrk hit it right on the spot, the biggest thing is knowing when he's moving so ya can catch him unsieged, and with his army spread out so lings can quickly surround everything. Another tactic I'll use is harassing with mutas and at the same time trying to draw out some of his army with lings 
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yeah, the big thing in TvZ is scouting. You have to constantly scout and punish Terran whenever he tries to move out and is unseiged. Spreading creep is absolutely essential (for speed increase and also cause it provides vision.) Then you just starve him and outmacro him. Prevent him from expanding and keep expanding yourself. TvZ really is a mental game. You have to make the Terran player fear leaving his base. Once you do that you've won the game, it just will probably take another 30-45 minutes for him to gg.
It is near impossible for Zerg to win quick against Terran (unless he does some cheese build or makes a mistake and allows your speedlings into his mineral line.) So sit back, settle in and prepare for a war.
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I know the new patch coming up, they are altering the siege tanks damage to light units, and that this should have a significant effect on the gameplay dynamics, but I can't help but feel that it is the wrong kind of fix. Short of major changes such as getting rid of tank smartfire, what are some other possibilities for fixes?
Has anyone discussed the viability of changing the Sieged tank's turn rate? I feel like flanking tanks is fairly ineffective (although obviously much better than running all your units head-on) because the tanks can just turn and shoot so rapidly. If it took a second or two for the turret to swivel before it could fire, flanking would actually be of significant strategic value rather than something you have to do just to avoid roflpwnage.
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I know this is going to sound like a troll but...
All you really have to do as zerg when facing against a PT team is survive long enough to get Ultra/Ling. If they have a ground based army, Ultra/Ling will pretty much dominate the PT team with your ally backing you up. Tanks in Siege mode really aren't that effective against Ultras. Lings just act as extra dps/cannon fodder/mineral dump.
Once you get your ultras into the 8+ count it's very hard for them to stop you without them building air.
Oh and make sure you're at least 1 expansion ahead of your opponents at all times. Zerg kind of needs that... especially in team games.
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On August 04 2010 09:26 TheJet wrote:
Based on the sheer amount of mech that is available for the terran player, the solution is:
Early game: surround with lings
Midgame: use tunneling roaches to get underneath the entire tank army
Lategame: When detection has become far too great, resort to A: heavy, heavy amount of micro with lings/hydras or B: broodlords
Dont go hydras against T, ever. (okay, maybe to stop banshees)
Hardest counter by far is blord, but roaches and lings do fairly okay.
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Also infestors are really nice against tanks. If you throw out 15 infested terrans they draw a lot of tank fire, make them splash their own units and IT do pretty solid damage as well. You also can many times draw the bio away from the tank and FG it and do some damage before he can pull back to the tanks.
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i honestly believe about 8 queens with an ultra army would help you IMMENSELY against a mech army... i did not watch the replay but siege tanks are OP :D...
Me and my zerg cousin usually play 2v2's (i play random in 2v2's) and whenever i roll terran i simply wall off all entrances and get about 14 siege tanks and cover every entrance possible... no ground army could ever enter our base that way :D while my cousin takes an expo or two and rushes for mutas :D.
Also the best way is to play with your team combination against a PT combo is mass colossus + mutas from the zerg IMO .
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Why do people always think they should engage tanks head on.
Abuse his immobility harass them to hell with your mutas and tell your ally to build some immortals if the terran keeps going for tanks.
Use your map control to expand and tech to hive eventually for the endgame. Broodlords and Ultras both work against that composition described by you (i'd prefer ultras since blink stalkers are quite good against broods), they shred through stalkers and tanks and if you didnt forget to upgrade your armor they are great against marines too. (the only ground units you have to fear are immortals)
1v1 ZvT is a different story but that was not what you asked for 
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As someone said before, wait for the patch, they are reducing the damage to light units, so I guess
hydras will be used once more.
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Diamond 2v2 (Z/P) and formerly division rank #1 (before my partner moved...) for what it's worth.
As Z, I always tend to go for mass early ling against P/T teams who aren't just massing zeal/marine (in which case I'll add a baneling nest and mine a little bit of extra gas). 13 gas/pool, first 100 gas into ling speed, early evolution chamber (around 25 food) for +1 attack/carapace, then just spam zerglings and queens while spreading creep and expanding. As a Z in a 2v2, your responsibility is (1) flanking and (2) map control. Early lings give you both: if you scout a push, you need to have zerglings in position to either backstab or to flank the army attacking your partner.
I like transitioning into mutas midgame for similar reasons: you get tons of map control and you get the ability to bounce in and out of 2+ enemy bases to snipe turrets, workers, supply depots, pylons, undefended tanks, etc. Upgraded muta/ling is a really powerful force, especially if you add in blings/roaches/infestors as you scout their composition/tech.
I'll usually start a hive when I get my third up--remember to keep harassing--and get either BLs or ultralisks depending on my partner's unit composition. You've got a lot of fun stuff you can do as a P/Z team if you get to lategame, like:
1. Fungal growth + storm
2. Brood lord + void ray
3. Ultra + ling + immortal for complete ground domination
4. Crackling + corrupter + stalker
Etc., etc., etc.
Muta + ling will absolutely trash a heavy mech midgame with ally support. Use your mutalisks or flanking zerglings to snipe tanks, and if you've been proactive about spreading creep you should be able to see where their army is and position yours accordingly.
Also, hydras are pretty bad in general. Don't build them: they're expensive, require pretty good control to use, and get absolutely smashed by MMM, tanks, hellions, thors, well micro'ed blink stalkers, colossus and storm. And, they're super slow to the point that it's tough to defend your teammate in a 2v2 if you don't have a creep highway/super well positioned army.
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Personally, I like to open with mutalisks and zerglings with every chance I get. Muta/ling will destroy stalkers. It won't do so great against marines, but that's what your partner is there for. Try to keep as many mutas alive as possible. Lings are fodder.
Once I get my 3rd base up and running, I start teching to hive and spam ultralisks.
Tanks and marines can't do enough damage to ultralisks. Stalkers will also fall to ultralisks. If you keep your mutalisks from harassment handy, between lings, ultras and a small amount of mutalisks you can make the P and T's life hell. Use the mutas to pick off tanks, immortals and colossi. Run in and out with them.
Hydras are like non-speed-upgraded roaches -- they're a defensive unit. You can't gain map control with them.
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mutalisks fly past tanks and destroy their base. later on ultralisks beat terran mech on an open field, broodlords r alright too. never get hydralisks vs terran.
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On August 08 2010 05:10 Vreck wrote:
I'm getting extremely frustrated, because i've been playing against the terran very hard A.I. all day, and it keeps ripping me to piece every game. It's the same problem over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. I just threw a glass of soda across the room when terran came up with a little ball of crap and lol'd at me all the way to the scoreboard screen. Regardless of mass hydras and lings.
I even played 2 games where I kept my units on creep for extra speed, and one where I tried flanking them when they were in the chokepoint.
The one thing that mindfucks me to the point where I think real life is a dream, is that the A.I. doesn't even siege his tanks, and still manages to paint his house with my units.
I went muta/ling, and he showed up with a ball of bio.
I went hydra/ling, and this actually worked... Until he thought it would be fun to throw unsieged tanks at me.
I went roach/ling, and this was pathetic beyond belief.
I can't seem to macro up as fast as him at all. He just sets rally point at my ramp, and it's all over for me. Even if I continuously spam units, spawn larvae flawlessly, have an expo at my natural, he still manages to steamroll me.
The most amazing thing is: I've played terran against all the very hard A.I. races, and won. But this is impossible for me... Impossible...
EDIT: Incase you're thinking why I wanna beat the A.I. it's primarily because I wanna go through the A.I. difficulties, without cheese strategies, before I go online to play ladder. I'm extremely nervous when I play online, so having abit of golden experience would work wonders for me.
I beat very hard AI terran with mass queen, took 4 tries but it worked. This isn't meant to brag or demean, but if you have that much difficulty then I think it is more about execution problems than straight up unit composition. the other races are more simple and straight forward than zerg to do well in that regard. personally i find zerg the most fun because of that.
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EPT
