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Terran harassment == Nearly no extra gas cost, no apparent drawback. Forces Zerg to respond. Can followup with anything.
Zerg harassment == No real harassment untill lair. Zerg only chance early game is proffitting on Terran mistakes which mostly involves placing buildings wrong.
I believe the game would be more fun if Terran actually had to fear Zerg early aggression. For example if banelings could climb cliffs slowly then Terran would have to constantly watch out, but it would be possible to defend if he scouted due to the time banelings were climbing. Then Zerg could use roaches at the main door to draw attention away from scouting.
Not saying that this is a good idea.. but anything to make the Terran fear Zerg..
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On July 31 2010 21:18 MythicalMage wrote:
I'M comparing apples with oranges? I was comparing harass tactics. YOU'RE comparing actual macro mechanics. Reapers have a low chance of being effective in small numbers, and the same with hellions. If they have anti air and/or detection, banshees are quick;y shut down. And the last bit made me laugh. Sure, theoretically a terran COULD have detection every game, or anti air EVERYWHERE every game, or always have a baneling proof wall, but it's not very likely. But none of this is at all relevant to the conversation. I just said that all the races had harass, and now it sounds like a lot of whining about Terran having the strongest harass, which is highly subjective.
But this is the important bit. Every bit of control of these harass units takes focus and control that's not spent on macroing or using other units. It's a distraction. As I said earlier, even the great qxc lost focus and lost a pack of hellions to, as some people in this thread would say, a mere three roaches and a queen. So it takes focus.
Yes, you are comparing harass tactics for 3 different races (apples and oranges). harass is indeed alot different from the viewpoint of all 3 races.
As for focus and control, you should not measure races by how people play them wrong. You should measure races by how they ideally function when played by a superhuman that does everything right 
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I ca't believe the amount of whining going on here about racial imbalances:
Why don't you try to come up with new ways to play a race and new strategies instead of just sitting there and whining?
Zerg is a more Macro-oriented race and that's where they clearly excel - if this does not fit your playstyle, choose another race...
Besides, Zerg harrassment is extremely strong early on, because of their very fast Speedlings. In addition, they can defend against harrassment very well. On Tier2, Zerg-harrassment just get's stellar, with Mutas, Burrowed Units, Drops, Nydus Worm etc. backed up by a good Eco, which Zerg should have at this point, you can really abuse those harrassment-tactics and further expand your macro-advantage at the same time.
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I humbly apologize to the OP for the sidetrack of this conversation. I'm going to go to sleep now, because the strength of hellion harass doesn't really matter compared to the "Defender's Advantage"
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If terran didn't have an effective harrassment unit, we would be on 1 base while zerg would be on 2 base's pumping drones with spawn larva. The reason why the spine crawler isn't stronger is because if it was, zerg would be on 40 drones with a few spines while terran is on 20 scvs and no way to attack.
Zerg has 2 damn bases, of course it's hard to defend harass. If terran went 12 barracks 14 command center, do you think its viable for them to complain about losing scvs at their natural to speedlings?
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On July 31 2010 22:13 TheFinalWord wrote:
If terran didn't have an effective harrassment unit, we would be on 1 base while zerg would be on 2 base's pumping drones with spawn larva. The reason why the spine crawler isn't stronger is because if it was, zerg would be on 40 drones with a few spines while terran is on 20 scvs and no way to attack.
Zerg has 2 damn bases, of course it's hard to defend harass. If terran went 12 barracks 14 command center, do you think its viable for them to complain about losing scvs at their natural to speedlings?
Thats just so wrong.. Alot of protoss play Nexus first and its working very very well vs top zergs. We will see fes of terrans as well soon its just that they dont have to play that kind of style to be viable.
2 base is not a racial advantage.. Every race can play it.
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OP brings up a very good point with a lot of implications. One of the implications is that it really hurts play such as overlord doom drops and spamming nydus worms (for all you Terran players who like to whine that Zerg players aren't innovative at all and just 1a a big roach/hydra ball).
The reason is that while I'm busying attacking his base with my army, he simply rushes straight into mine and can kill it faster since I have no units like the defiler or the lurker to help delay for my overlords that move slow as sin or my nydus worm that's leisurely pooping out a unit at a time.
SO yeah, while Terran is nicely sitting back behind an impenetrable line of tanks and turrets and PFs and is happily dropping his MM ball willy nilly, Zerg is given what, burrowed banelings as replacement lurkers that aren't even relevant past the early game? And they don't even have a chance of seeing defilers or lurkers for another one and a half years? Really?
In order to do cutesy drop play, you need some sort of defense mechanism so if he decides to counter you, you don't just fall over and die. All of the races had this in Brood War. So why is Zerg lacking this in SC2, when the drop capabilities the race has are even greater?
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Why people always speak about SC1?
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On July 31 2010 23:21 Anomandaris wrote:
Why people always speak about SC1?
because its balanced
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On July 31 2010 23:21 Anomandaris wrote:
Why people always speak about SC1?
This is an attitude I absolutely hate to see in the SC2 forums. There are many things we should learn from SC1 that has helped make it so successful for the past decade. Insisting they are two different games and that we shouldn't look at it for that reason is just ignorant, and will hurt SC2 immensely in the long run.
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...wow this is just sad.
i can very easily talk/whine about how zerg is imba too.
tvz: speedlings...yea alright that already is annoying as fuck. zerg has mobility. we terrans cannot compete with that at all. do you have any idea how fucking annoying it is to be setting up base, rallying troops and preparing to push out farther to only hear "your base is under attack" only to head there and either a) find everything destroyed and wasted time heading there cause speedlings rape like that or b) head there with losing half my shit and only see zerg running away then proceeding to harass another expo or even splitting it and attacking two expos?? zerg also has larvae injection which again they can use to power units. do you know what its like to fucking stop 12 mutalisks destroying your main and having to painfully wait for your vikings or marines to get there and stop them... only to realize you dont have enough and have to wait for more...i mean yea sure we can go bio which is much more mobile but then again who would wanna go bio now days when you can just baneling the shit out of it  . mech is strong but immobile (must stress that point out). we have to either finish the game very soon vs zerg else zerg will win. everyone knows if zerg grabs just enough expos and is left alone long enough (as in little harass) then the longer the game goes the higher the chance the zerg has to win because again he just has to mass and literally a-move.
see how easy it was for me to rant for the terrans?? of course i see the problem yet i deal with it because every race has its PROS and CONS. zerg also is a hard race and i dont think there are many people who have played zerg to the fullest extension. zerg has the potential to be the number one race IF IF IF someone plays it right.
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On July 31 2010 23:46 heroyi wrote:...wow this is just sad. i can very easily talk/whine about how zerg is imba too. tvz: speedlings...yea alright that already is annoying as fuck. zerg has mobility. we terrans cannot compete with that at all. do you have any idea how fucking annoying it is to be setting up base, rallying troops and preparing to push out farther to only hear "your base is under attack" only to head there and either a) find everything destroyed and wasted time heading there cause speedlings rape like that or b) head there with losing half my shit and only see zerg running away then proceeding to harass another expo or even splitting it and attacking two expos?? zerg also has larvae injection which again they can use to power units. do you know what its like to fucking stop 12 mutalisks destroying your main and having to painfully wait for your vikings or marines to get there and stop them... only to realize you dont have enough and have to wait for more...i mean yea sure we can go bio which is much more mobile but then again who would wanna go bio now days when you can just baneling the shit out of it . mech is strong but immobile (must stress that point out). we have to either finish the game very soon vs zerg else zerg will win. everyone knows if zerg grabs just enough expos and is left alone long enough (as in little harass) then the longer the game goes the higher the chance the zerg has to win because again he just has to mass and literally a-move. see how easy it was for me to rant for the terrans?? of course i see the problem yet i deal with it because every race has its PROS and CONS. zerg also is a hard race and i dont think there are many people who have played zerg to the fullest extension. zerg has the potential to be the number one race IF IF IF someone plays it right.
fail attempt 
User was warned for this post
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On August 01 2010 00:21 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 23:46 heroyi wrote:...wow this is just sad. i can very easily talk/whine about how zerg is imba too. tvz: speedlings...yea alright that already is annoying as fuck. zerg has mobility. we terrans cannot compete with that at all. do you have any idea how fucking annoying it is to be setting up base, rallying troops and preparing to push out farther to only hear "your base is under attack" only to head there and either a) find everything destroyed and wasted time heading there cause speedlings rape like that or b) head there with losing half my shit and only see zerg running away then proceeding to harass another expo or even splitting it and attacking two expos?? zerg also has larvae injection which again they can use to power units. do you know what its like to fucking stop 12 mutalisks destroying your main and having to painfully wait for your vikings or marines to get there and stop them... only to realize you dont have enough and have to wait for more...i mean yea sure we can go bio which is much more mobile but then again who would wanna go bio now days when you can just baneling the shit out of it . mech is strong but immobile (must stress that point out). we have to either finish the game very soon vs zerg else zerg will win. everyone knows if zerg grabs just enough expos and is left alone long enough (as in little harass) then the longer the game goes the higher the chance the zerg has to win because again he just has to mass and literally a-move. see how easy it was for me to rant for the terrans?? of course i see the problem yet i deal with it because every race has its PROS and CONS. zerg also is a hard race and i dont think there are many people who have played zerg to the fullest extension. zerg has the potential to be the number one race IF IF IF someone plays it right. fail attempt
No, sir, this is a fail quote. Your post means nothing if you don't even explain your opinion.
He has a point though, Terrans can also rant about how strong Zerg is as well. For example, why is it that when I can make 1 siege tank, zergs can make 4+ roaches/hydras/ultralisk/mutalisks/ etc. in the same time if they have a queen? (40 secs for inject larva, 45 secs for siege tanks) Why is that spine crawlers can move to block a ramp and then move to protect an expo? Why is it Terran doesn't have anything that is a static ground defense like the spine crawler?
Although i'm not saying that I feel these issues are OPed, but they are RACE ADVANTAGES of zergs, much like how Terrans have salvageable bunkers, reactors, mules, scans etc.
On topic, Terrans may have the defensive advantage, zergs have the map control advantage, and protoss has the greatest potential in terms of offense advantage. Zergs can easily control the xel naga watchtowers with a single zerglings which is cheap and moves quickly to the towers. Mutalisks grant zerg good map control with their speed and ability to harass every building the enemy doesn't have covered with turrets or AA. Creep also gives them a huge advantage in terms of speed, and ability to see everywhere their creep is spread.
As for hellions harass, you can block your ramp with some roaches with a spine crawlers for support or go for that third queen to spread creep tumors. You can use that third queen with your queen at the expo to block the ramp, using transfusion to heal. Mutas fare pretty well against hellions and if they can't kill all the hellions then harass. Don't say that "Oh there's gonna be turrets up and a bunch of marines will kill them" cause hellions cost a bit of minerals and finding enough money to pay for a decent hellion force, a decent marine force, and a decent number of turrets to cover every building in the Terran base is gonna be hard. Of course this comes at the price of having mutalisks mid game.
Protoss has the offensive advantage because of warping in the front lines, chronoboosting zealots and upgrades, ability to make a bunch of gateways quickly (with one probe), sentries can block off reinforcements on the ramp and can block the rear for a retreat.
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On July 31 2010 21:00 slowmanrunning wrote:
imo I think it was stupid to make supply depots able to lower, makes walls have a super fast on off switch, where as in bw you had to lift and move the barracks, and if zerg suddenly storms up your ramp it takes far to long to place, and is easily stoppable.
imo, supply depots shouldnt rocket out of the ground, they should have a 1 second delay before raising or lowering.
Or make it so that they wait until there's no unit on top of them. But I agree completely with this general idea as being at least part of the solution.
Another thing that I feel is problem here is that Zerg really can't create any sort of Sim City. In Brood War, a Zerg's 3rd Hatchery and an Evolution Chamber or the Hydra Den, along with the Sunken that the Zerg would be making anyways, could be used to block off one side of a Zerg's natural from Vulture harass. Other than Evolution Chambers and the Crawlers, there's just nothing that Zerg can use to create chokes or block now. Most tech buildings are way too important and are super fragile (maybe the Hydra Den or Roach Warren, could be risked for something like this, but my instincts say that wouldn't go well because something like a Reaper could sit back and tear it down.. in Brood War, a Mech Terran couldn't pick off the buildings in a wall well until Tanks got to your front). Because of the Queen, Zerg only generally builds 1 hatchery per base, so they can't block with their 3rd Hatch anymore, either. The workers in mineral lines also impeded movement in Brood War, and don't any longer, so they can't be used to try and prevent run-bys into the main, not that that's a large problem because it's usually the natural mineral line that's the target.
Possible solutions to this would be a health buff to one of the tech buildings, making one of the Zerg buildings bigger (although that would have a weird aesthetic), or giving the Zerg some way of creating creep walls or something similar (maybe live tumors could transform into them, or Queens could vomit them as another ability, or something).
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He has a point though, Terrans can also rant about how strong Zerg is as well.
except that its precieved as either trolling or player fault. Terrans have nothing to whine about. Terran vs X games are all in the hands of the terran to loose and not the other way and anyone arguing otherwise are just that. Bad players.
Minerals Yea, there is something called mule and calldown supply that limits and boosts your mineral harvesting or spending capability.
they also allow you to cut scvs and still remain economically sound.
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On August 01 2010 01:54 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +He has a point though, Terrans can also rant about how strong Zerg is as well. except that its precieved as either trolling or player fault. Terrans have nothing to whine about. Terran vs X games are all in the hands of the terran to loose and not the other way and anyone arguing otherwise are just that. Bad players.
I am a Protoss player, and disagree with this 31565465163%. PvT (and PvZ) are fine, it's just TvZ that needs work.
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OP brings up many good points. I think this one is the most important:
On July 31 2010 10:00 kNyTTyM wrote:
On the fastest rush distance map, close positions metalopolis and incineration, the main to main time is 40 seconds for an scv and since I set 5 second to the front of the natural, 37.5 seconds between the ramp of terran (bunker + wall) and the main of zerg. Let us not forget bunkers are almost free in the grand scope of the game. Marauder build time is 30 seconds. So even if terran has no idea roaches are coming until they hatch, they can put down a bunker and make a maruder within time of the roach reaching the ramp. You also have to account for the fact that roaches are slower then scvs and terran can delay with hellions for even more time. If the roaches start attacking up the ramp, you have your third and fourth defenders advantage available. You have all your scvs able to repair if the roaches try to break through. If he does break, you have the range advantage so scv blocking comes into play.
Again let's look at the flip side for a reactor hellion build. Zerg doesn't see it early and only places a spine crawler at the natural while the hellions are moving down their ramp. Spine takes 50 seconds to build and hellion is ~50% faster than a scv so about 25 seconds from ramp to natural. What are the hellions able to do in that time? Kite the queen, kill zerglings and drones. What defenders advantage do you have available? My zerglings can move slightly faster but still die quickly to hellions. Zerg is forced to preemptively build defense because they do not have some significant advantage on their home turf. How do zergs delay hellions? Sacrifice units for 25 seconds while a terran in a pressured situation can keep his hellions alive while delaying roaches.
It highlights a key difference between zerg & terran.
Terran can react to zerg leaving their base by putting up turret/bunker, but zerg can't do the same against terran (spine crawlers won't finish in time). This forces zerg to pre-emptively build spine crawlers to defend harass. This is a major difference from brood war, where on almost every competitive map zerg is able to put a zergling outside of terran nat, and when M&M move out zerg can react by putting up quick sunkens.
I'm not sure if that points out imba, but it is certainly worth thinking about.
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I wonder if the OP would have really gone through and made this thread for brood war.
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On August 01 2010 01:54 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +He has a point though, Terrans can also rant about how strong Zerg is as well. except that its precieved as either trolling or player fault. Terrans have nothing to whine about. Terran vs X games are all in the hands of the terran to loose and not the other way and anyone arguing otherwise are just that. Bad players. Yea, there is something called mule and calldown supply that limits and boosts your mineral harvesting or spending capability. they also allow you to cut scvs and still remain economically sound.
For your first point, it's just your way of viewing the outcome of games. If I Terran beats me, i'll admit he's better than me (unless it's some 6 pool or cheese). Even then, I should have seen that coming. If a Terran beat you, you might think and react differently. Everyone's views are different and not everyone is the same as me or as you.
For your second point, mutalisks forces your opponent to waste those minerals mined from mules on statics defenses instead of more hellions or more marines. If he goes to get marines instead of turrets, you've forced him to go marines which can be killed by banelings. If he goes thors, he won't attack or push for a long time so you can expand.
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I play terran all the time and I have a feeling that terran is a little overpowered. I win games where my opponent was definitely stronger than me, it is very clear from replays. I am like 19th in Platinum but I feel I don't deserve it, I actually don't have any build orders. Turtling and doing whatever I want. Tech switch is very easy. Maybe I am wrong.
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EPT
